Miracles and saints

[Xeno.of.athens]

Numerous shrines and pilgrimages are associated with the lives of saints and the healing miracles that some believe are due to the sanctity and intercession of the respective saint. Lourdes and Fatima are two notable examples from the 19th and 20th centuries. I understand that some people may find these stories of miracles credible what do you think?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think they're credible. When miracles of healing are reported, the church investigates them very carefully before they are accepted as "worthy of belief".

The saints themselves don't perform the miracles. They simply pass on our prayers to God, and He is the one who performs the miracles.

If you have a friend who comes to you with a request, compared to someone whom you don't know very well or are uncertain about, it is obvious you'll listen to the friend with a more welcoming attitude than the comparative stranger.

So it is with the saints - God sees them as friends who have proved their friendship to Him by their lives on earth. And so He is inclined to listen to them when they pass on our prayers. It's not much different to asking our friends to pray on our behalf, but God knows the proven qualities of the saints as compared to Tom, Dick and Harry in the next pew.

If He listens to us simply because two or three are gathered together in His name, He's also going to listen if the saints throw in their voice as well.

"They're doing something up there" as my old Presbyterian pastor said to me once.

 

[RandyPNW]

Numerous shrines and pilgrimages are associated with the lives of saints and the healing miracles that some believe are due to the sanctity and intercession of the respective saint. Lourdes and Fatima are two notable examples from the 19th and 20th centuries. I understand that some people may find these stories of miracles credible what do you think?

I think it may be a distraction to get caught up with shrines. That being said, I think miracles like this are very possible. Associating things with the saints did produce miracles at times. For example, the bones of Elishah healed somebody. Peter's shadow healed people. Who knows?

 

[Clare73]

Numerous shrines and pilgrimages are associated with the lives of saints and the healing miracles that some believe are due to the sanctity and intercession of the respective saint. Lourdes and Fatima are two notable examples from the 19th and 20th centuries. I understand that some people may find these stories of miracles credible what do you think?

I suspect they are credible.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I suspect they are credible.

Interesting turn of phrase, would you please explain what it means?

 

[Clare73]

Interesting turn of phrase, would you please explain what it means?

I don't know for sure. . .can't say one way or the other. . .could be. . .could not be.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

When a miracle does happen do you think it means that God approves the life decisions of the saint?

 

[Clare73]

When a miracle does happen do you think it means that God approves the life decisions of the saint?

God works miracles through those who are not saints (Mt 7:22-23).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God works miracles through those who are not saints (Mt 7:22-23).

If he never knew them then they did no miracles.

 

[Clare73]

If he never knew them then they did no miracles.

Guess Matthew got it wrong. . .

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Guess Matthew got it wrong. . .

Rather than jump to such an extreme conclusion it seems far safer to conclude that your interpretation is faulty.

 

[Clare73]

Rather than jump to such an extreme conclusion it seems far safer to conclude that your interpretation is faulty.

It falls to you to demonstrate my error.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It falls to you to demonstrate my error.

Nope that's a crazy rule that isn't operative in any significant discussion forum.

 

[Clare73]

Nope that's a crazy rule that isn't operative in any significant discussion forum.

Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.

Exactly, so your assertion without evidence to support it has no merit.

 

[Clare73]

Exactly, so your assertion without evidence to support it has no merit.

To which Biblical assertion are you referring?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God works miracles through those who are not saints (Mt 7:22-23).

To which Biblical assertion are you referring?

It isn't a bible assertion; it is an assertion that you made.

The passage says:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'​

(Matthew 7:21-23 NASB)

The passage does not say "God works miracles through those who are not saints" but you say it. What evidence do you have that God works miracles through such people?

 

[Clare73]

It isn't a bible assertion; it is an assertion that you made.

The passage says:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' ​

Those words indicate faith. . .believing Jesus is Lord, and
their miracles (Mt 7:22) indicate faith,
yet Jesus condemns them, "I never knew--was never in a saving relationship with--you."

They worked miracles and yet they were not saved.

will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'​

(Matthew 7:21-23 NASB)

The passage does not say "God works miracles through those who are not saints"

Agreed. . .it does not "state" it, it shows it in that they worked miracles even though, according to Jesus, they were not saved (he did not know them).

but you say it. What evidence do you have that God works miracles through such people?

Mt 7:22-23.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Those words indicate faith. . .believing Jesus is Lord, and
their miracles (Mt 7:22) indicate faith,
yet Jesus condemns them, "I never knew--was never in a saving relationship with--you."

They worked miracles and yet they were not saved.

Agreed. . .it does not "state" it, it shows it in that they worked miracles even though, according to Jesus, they were not saved (he did not know them).

Mt 7:22-23.

I want to say "nope" to your reply. In fact, I will say nope to it.

Saying "Lord, Lord" does not indicate trust in Jesus as their God and saviour, were he their Lord, they'd obey him, but they are workers of lawlessness as the Lord himself says, so they are not Christians.

They claim to be miracle workers, but their claim does not make it a fact that they worked miracles, we have only their testimony for that. The Lord says to them "I never knew you" and that means the Lord never worked a miracle through them as if they were his servants, after all when he dismisses them, he says they are workers of lawlessness.

And nope, they did not work miracles, they merely claimed to work miracles. There are plenty of people alive today who claim to work miracles who are not working any miracles.

 

[Clare73]

I want to say "nope" to your reply. In fact, I will say nope to it.

Saying "Lord, Lord" does not indicate trust in Jesus

Agreed.. .and yet they worked miracles (Mt 7:22-23).