Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I misunderstood your post to be a literal "dance." I apologize.Of course. What did you think I meant?
??
No it doesn't. All it confirms is that these people were predisposed to think that Mary was in the business of apparitions.
OK, this is all possible IF the apparition were real. IOW the sun was one thing; the Mary part is something else. But even so, don't you think that those who believed in all these items were naturally going to think that the alleged apparition were going to be in step with them? That is to say, if the apparition had said one thing that might not be anticipated or in step with accepted RC belief, THAT would really be news. Prophesies usually reveal something and don't just say "what you already believe...good for you."
Oh let's not. I have the same access to internet websites as you do.The apparition's intent was not to "reveal something [not "in step with accepted RC belief]," although I suppose you could say it did upon closer inspection. Since you don't seem to have a very deep knowledge of Fatima, the prophecies, and the "miracles," I'll explain.
Let's start with the context within which this all occurred back in 1916/1917:
I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue to pray the Rosary every day. The war will soon end and the soldiers will return to their homes.”
unlearned and condescending? I don't think so.The short of it: please learn more about what you're criticizing before you begin to speak to other people condescendingly as you have several times now. Thank you.
Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.
Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.
Eph 3: [11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. [20] Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;
1 Cor 7: [13] And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. [14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. [16] For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.It is one thing to actively seek the salvation of living members of our families and quite another thing to seek their salvation after their death. It is absurd for a Christian to believe that our actions can affect God's judgment of an individual following his demise.
Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.
Eph 3: [11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. [20] Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;
1 Cor 7: [13] And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. [14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. [16] For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.
Also I think we can also pray for those who have passed that we know were not living a Christian life, in the hope that before they died they did as the thief on the cross did and come to Jesus with a repentant heart.
A novena is prayer Albion.
Is it prayer or not Albion? There are many types of prayer and does these passages say that one type of prayer is excluded?I know what it is Erose.
I said to point it out to me in your lengthy cut and paste. Oh, it's not there. And a Novena is not just 'prayer,' Erose. It is a special series of prayers that are supposed to have special powers if prayed in the specified way.
Sorry about the she thing. It happens to me all the time as well.I guess you missed the point. It happens. I'm not a "she," so misunderstanding what I was talking about may just follow naturally.
In 2 Maccabees (which I know you guys no longer have in your Bible) teaches us that it is good to pray and offer sacrifices for our deceased Brethren and as such that is what we do. Again, I don't know what their final stop is, so I pray for all no matter who.You think that praying for someone who is deceased that he may HAVE ALREADY repented before his death?? That really doesn't make any sense.
Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.
For Catholics the "dead" that are edified by prayers are those in the state of purgation and those alone. Those that are in this state are already "saved", and are awaiting to see God face to face.
Also I think we can also pray for those who have passed that we know were not living a Christian life, in the hope that before they died they did as the thief on the cross did and come to Jesus with a repentant heart. I see nothing wrong with this either since our God does not exist in time and as such our prayers can be retroactive in a sense.
I pray daily for all of my relatives and friends that have fallen asleep and pray for their souls. I don't know what state they are in whether heaven, hell or purgatory, so I pray in faith that if they are in heaven they are interceding for me and my faimily, if in purgatory that they will finally be allowed to see God face to face, and in hell, well there is nothing I can do for them.
But the fact of the matter is I can't tell you one way or another what state any of my family and friends are in for I am not the Judge. The person that l would assume is hell-bound may have repented before his death. The person I would assume is heaven-bound may not be as well. So all I can do is pray for them all.
Sorry about the she thing. It happens to me all the time as well.
I do feel though that at times we are writing around each other and maybe not understanding each other's thoughts. I am not sure how to correct this though.
In 2 Maccabees (which I know you guys no longer have in your Bible)
teaches us that it is good to pray and offer sacrifices for our deceased Brethren and as such that is what we do. Again, I don't know what their final stop is, so I pray for all no matter who.
I understand why this may be a difficult thing to understand for you guys
2 Mac is really the only book that has an explicit teaching on this. It if found in other places mind you but only implicitly and as such it is easy for that understanding to be missed.
I think the key is intent. Liturgical prayer is important for it is the act of the whole community. I pray the Divine Office daily and there is repetition there, even though I do it privately I know I am offering it up in communion with all those that are also praying the office.Here is a good explanation of what a novena is - Novena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is the repetition of specific rote prayers over a period of nine days. One can easily argue that repeating prayers and other words is not prayer, even as our Lord instructed His disciples not to engage in repetitious prayers. (Matthew 6:1-8)
I don't see how you can equate that. We do not know how long the purging process lasts. So we pray for them. The ancient Jews and even modern Jews pray for their dead for one year. But no one can know what length is required. We just know that it is good for us to pray for them.If you believe in the Traditional Catholic Purgatory, then you might have a reason to find ways to shorten the torture of the soul there. However, if you hold to the contempory Catholic view of purgation (as you seem to) which is a refreshing, cleansing shower prior to entering heaven, then prayers for those souls are unnecessary, at best.
So God isn't eternal?As Abion (a man) pointed out, it is absurd to pray for an event (repentance and faith prior to death) to happen which already is past.
And there is the key to why it is good to pray for all dead for we just do not know what the state of their soul was at their death.Perhaps but that doesn't cover that rather strange idea of praying for someone who has already died that he might have repented before he actually died. What is that supposed to accomplish? You wouldn't be praying for someone to be released from Purgatory and of course praying for those in Hell is usually considered too late. Then again, if the person had repented at the last minute, he wouldn't be in Hell, would he?
So you are saying not to defend our faith? For example when I used the word "novena" the response you gave me was one that sounded as if you did not know that a "novena" was a form of prayer. So I explained that it is. I don't feel like I am talking down to anyone, but just trying to answer the questions proposed in a matter that hopefully will convey my thoughts. But the problem is I don't know what you know. I only know what you wrote. As far as I know you didn't know what a novena is or that in 2 Mac has the only explicit teaching on praying for the dead. I would assume that most non-Catholic/Orthodox would not know. So I provide information. It may be a good thing at times for you guys to provide a little more information where you are coming from on some matter. Because it sure can get confusing at times.Here's a hint I hope you take to heart, considering that you started this on a conciliatory note. DON'T KEEP TALKING DOWN TO US, saying that we don't know or understand what a novena is, what's in Maccabees, or etc. The idea that only Catholics know such things is ridiculous, and besides, many of us were Roman Catholics for longer than most of the RCs here on CF and, in many cases, know their church better than they do.
So I am the only one talking down or being insulting???Really? You don't say? Let me write that down.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?