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Mind-Brain-Dualism

Illuminaughty

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I'm not sure any of solutions currently out there can be proven on evidence alone. At this point you still have to take an intuitive leap if you are going to answer at all. Maybe some day in the future that wont be the case. That being said I find myself more attracted to the idea of panexperientialism (which is a form of panpsychism) but I'm still new to thinking about the issue so I might change my mind at some point. I'm really good at changing my mind on a regular basis.
 
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KCfromNC

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Question, if our thoughts are produced by chemical reactions in the brain, then how can we be arguing about this?

If words are just ink on a piece of processed wood pulp or electrons hitting a screen, then how can we be arguing about this?

Information can be encoded in lots of physical systems.
 
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brightlights

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Interesting OP. It's my view that the mind depends on the brain but is not reducible to the brain. I've never got a clear explanation of "emergent property"? What would it mean for the mind to simply be an emergent property of the brain? Could you give an example of other emergent properties in the world?
 
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The Engineer

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Interesting OP. It's my view that the mind depends on the brain but is not reducible to the brain. I've never got a clear explanation of "emergent property"? What would it mean for the mind to simply be an emergent property of the brain? Could you give an example of other emergent properties in the world?
The Wikipedia article about this is actually pretty good:
Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When simple interactions create complex systems or phenomenons, that's emergence.

What I was talking about was that the mind emerges from the reactions in our brain, i.e. that our ability to think, feel etc. emerges from the interactions of neurons in our brain. You could also say that it's caused by or located in our brain, but both formulations leave open the question of whether the mind and the brain are separate. If you ask me, they are not, and I hoped my wording made this clear.

Hope I could help you.
 
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brightlights

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The Wikipedia article about this is actually pretty good:
Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When simple interactions create complex systems or phenomenons, that's emergence.

What I was talking about was that the mind emerges from the reactions in our brain, i.e. that our ability to think, feel etc. emerges from the interactions of neurons in our brain. You could also say that it's caused by or located in our brain, but both formulations leave open the question of whether the mind and the brain are separate. If you ask me, they are not, and I hoped my wording made this clear.

Hope I could help you.

I wonder if it's even logically possible for the mind to understand itself. Obviously our minds are geared to understand how the world relates to us and how we relate to the world. Beyond that, though, it seems a bit transcendant to claim that the mind (being an object in nature) is able to understand its own nature. Am I making sense?
 
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GrayAngel

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I recently had a discussion with another member about whether the mind and the brain are really separate entities, or whether the mind is simply an emergent property of the brain. Sadly, the debate led us nowhere, for some reason, which is why I've started this thread.

I know that this is traditionally called Mind-Body-Dualism, but I think Mind-Brain-Dualism is the more accurate term.

My view is that the the mind is simply an emergent property of the brain. The two are linked to each other, you can't remove one of them while leaving the other one intact.

The reason why I hold this view is because changes to the brain almost always correlate with changes to the mind. A few examples:
Drugs. Specifically, methamphetamine, more commonly known as crystal. It has been shown that long-time users of methamphetamine suffer from depression years after abstinence. It has also been shown, mainly in animal experiments, that methamphetamine damages serotonin-receptors in the brain. Serotonin, for those who don't know, is commonly regarded as a happiness hormone.
Lobotomies. During a lobotomy, the frontal lobe of the brain is intentionally damaged. This has been shown to make patients apathetic.
The amygdala. The amygdalas are segments of the brain, present in both hemispheres. They are linked to emotional responses, especially fear and anger. It was shown that stimulation of the amygdala correlates with feelings of fear and anger. It has also been shown that transplantation of or damage to the amygdala correlates with a decline in emotional responses, and the incapability to process emotions.

As you can see, changes to the brain correlate with changes to the mind, and they do so in a predictable pattern. Likewise, processes of the mind show up in MRI‘s and similar imaging techniques. The two are so strongly correlated that the majority neuroscientists agree they are causated, too.


This leaves us with the question of whether the mind influences the brain, or whether the brain causes the mind. At first glance, both options look equally valid. However, on further inspectation, it becomes apparent that the first hypothesis is the weaker one, as it leaves many questions unanswered. For example, why would the mind cause the blood flow in the brain to change? Why does a depressed mind cause damage to serotonin receptors? Why does the mind change when the brain changes? And, last but not least: Why does the mind need the brain at all? It also attributes supernatural properties to the mind, which are unfalsifiable.


In the end, I arrived at the conclusion that the mind is an emergent property of the brain. Any thoughts?

You would think most Christians would subscribe to the dualist view, but the funny thing is that the Bible does not have much to say on the subject. The idea simply flows from certain assumptions that many Christians hold. One of those assumptions is that we have free will. Take a look at the link in my sig for a list of strong evidence for the contrary. From this, they assume that free will is made possible because of some immaterial ghost inside which controls the body.

I actually have a different point of view, though I don't know what to call it. I believe that people are made up of three parts: body, soul, and spirit. What the body is is obvious, but most people lump soul and spirit together even though the Bible lists them together as two separate things.

The soul could also be called the mind. It is exactly what you describe. It's the thoughts, emotions, etc., which are all attributable to the brain. It is rather curious that such a thing could exist, however, since we can't exactly put an emotion in a jar and say, "This is happiness." The soul is not a physical thing, but it does rely entirely on the physical brain.

The third part, the spirit, is a little harder to explain. Unlike the soul, the spirit does not require a body to exist. It is essence of what makes us who we are. The best way to describe it might be through example...

We have robots that are able to collect light through a camera and process the resulting information as a picture. This is much like how our eyes collect light, sending electro-chemical signals to the brain, which then processes the information to create a picture. They can even be programmed to respond to the information they pick up, such as following a black line on a piece of paper.

But does a robot experience the sensation of light itself, or does it simply handle the information? Of course, robots do not really see the same way we do. They're merely empty shells. What they lack is the spirit. The spirit is what is required for the next step, to go beyond just processing information and actually experiencing it.

I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said, but I haven't found a lot of people who think this way. Interestingly, though, I've heard from a former Buddhist that some Buddhists believe we are made of these three things. I didn't even have to finish my sentence when describing my ideas to him. He finished it for me.
 
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Blayz

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At this point, linking to individual body parts is just dumb. Imagine seeing a bear, and having your right leg kick. Completely useless.

Actually not true. There are a sensory links that bypass the brain. I saw a documentary some decades ago (and sadly I don't have a link) where there was a person who was 100% blind due to a dysfunction between eye and brain (which is to say, his eyes "worked"). When placed in front of a dark screen that had a light flashed on it, he was able to point to the light without ever actually "seeing" it.
 
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Davian

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Interesting OP. It's my view that the mind depends on the brain but is not reducible to the brain. I've never got a clear explanation of "emergent property"? What would it mean for the mind to simply be an emergent property of the brain? Could you give an example of other emergent properties in the world?

"What happens when there is no leader? Starlings, bees, and ants manage just fine. In fact, they form staggeringly complicated societies--all without a Toscanini to conduct them into harmony. This hour of Radiolab, we ask how this happens."

Emergence - Radiolab
 
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The Engineer

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I wonder if it's even logically possible for the mind to understand itself. Obviously our minds are geared to understand how the world relates to us and how we relate to the world. Beyond that, though, it seems a bit transcendant to claim that the mind (being an object in nature) is able to understand its own nature. Am I making sense?
Actually, this makes a lot of sense. We have no intrinsic knowledge about how our mind works, and a lot of the things that go on within it are hidden from us, self-awareness notwithstanding.

Actually not true. There are a sensory links that bypass the brain. I saw a documentary some decades ago (and sadly I don't have a link) where there was a person who was 100% blind due to a dysfunction between eye and brain (which is to say, his eyes "worked"). When placed in front of a dark screen that had a light flashed on it, he was able to point to the light without ever actually "seeing" it.
Blindseeing, that's what it's called, still works through the brain. The people can see, but they are not aware of it.

I just googled it up. Blindsight is caused by lesions in the primary visual cortex (V1), but there seem to be other, more primitive visual cortices that still allow for visual information to be processed in the absence of V1, just not on a conscious level. Scientists think that this primitive cortices are leftovers from our amphibian stages.

But does a robot experience the sensation of light itself, or does it simply handle the information? Of course, robots do not really see the same way we do. They're merely empty shells. What they lack is the spirit. The spirit is what is required for the next step, to go beyond just processing information and actually experiencing it.
I find your views interesting. I never knew there are Christians who actually think that way.

However, I'm pretty sure robots have the potential to experience seeing. If we modeled the processors of the robot after a human brain, why shouldn't we expect the robot to experience and even feel the same way we do?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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It amazes me how much and how little we know about the brain. Even the simplest tasks, which we often take for granted because they seem practically effortless, are difficult to explain. Everyone has their own naive theories about how the mind works, and many of these naive theories form the basis of popular "common sense" explanations. But most people also hold naive theories about how the sun shines, why things fall down not up, and why time only goes forward. It's a mistake, I think, to take a naive approach and declare "Well, it's obvious that the mind and the body are two separate things." Strong intuitions may bear upon these appeals to the obvious, but intuitions (however strong they are) are not always right, and if we want anything more than a naive explanation of "the obvious" then we need to test our ideas about how the mind works.
 
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KCfromNC

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I wonder if it's even logically possible for the mind to understand itself. Obviously our minds are geared to understand how the world relates to us and how we relate to the world. Beyond that, though, it seems a bit transcendant to claim that the mind (being an object in nature) is able to understand its own nature. Am I making sense?

First off, the mind isn't an object, it's one of the things the brain does.

But anyway, the evidence shows that our mind does a bad job of accurately reporting what it is doing. So there's probably not a lot of use in just thinking about what our minds do hoping that we'll get the right answer.

But there's lots of very good research which uses some pretty clever ways to work around these limits. The problem is that philosophy has spent such a long time sitting around thinking about how the brain works. It's come up with a lot of bad answers to the question and will take time time catch up with the actual results from real research. If you're looking for actual answers, philosophy isn't the place to find them (for this and lots of other questions about fact and reality).
 
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The Engineer

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If you're looking for actual answers, philosophy isn't the place to find them (for this and lots of other questions about fact and reality).
I agree with most of what you said, just have a few problems with this paragraph. I'd say philosophy and neurology work together quite well. Some questions can't be answered using neurology (or science in general) alone, for example whether we have a free will or not. Before it can do that, it needs a definition of what free will is, and this is primarily a philosophical question. Same with all ethical questions.

Answering scientific questions by using philosophy alone is dumb, I completely agree on that, but science, on the other hand, can't single-handedly answer philosophical questions.

Feel free to correct me if I falsely attributed a view to you that you don't hold. I don't know how important the brackets were in the sentence that I quoted.
 
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Illuminaughty

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I thought this was a good summary of one of the basic ideas of panexperientialism. I just came across it in a book I was reading today:
There is no interaction between mind and matter because mind is the action or process by which matter moves itself. Note, I did not simply say that "mind is the action of matter"- that would be a restatement of functionalism. I am explicitly saying that mind is the intrinsic, purposeful self-motion of matter...

Mind doesn't "do" something to matter, thereby interacting with it. It is not some external force or substance acting on a body. It is not even some internal force, if by "internal" we mean a spatial location within the boundary of a body- for instance, in the sense that nuclear forces are internal to the dynamics of the atom. Mind is neither outside nor inside matter, but is constituent of the very essence of matter-interior to its being. It is part of the "isness" of matter, or , rather is that which is responsible for matters ability to become what it it is. Mind is, shall we say, a "becoming" of matter, the intrinsic, interior, self force of a body- what biologist Hans Dreisch after Aristotle called entelechy.

Radical Nature, The Soul of Matter
 
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Eudaimonist

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Mind is neither outside nor inside matter, but is constituent of the very essence of matter-interior to its being. It is part of the "isness" of matter, or , rather is that which is responsible for matters[sic] ability to become what it it is. Mind is, shall we say, a "becoming" of matter, the intrinsic, interior, self force of a body- what biologist Hans Dreisch after Aristotle called entelechy.

This sounds too much like woo to me. I can't make much sense out of this way of linking matter to mind.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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KCfromNC

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I agree with most of what you said, just have a few problems with this paragraph. I'd say philosophy and neurology work together quite well. Some questions can't be answered using neurology (or science in general) alone, for example whether we have a free will or not. Before it can do that, it needs a definition of what free will is, and this is primarily a philosophical question. Same with all ethical questions.

I put ethical questions into the opinion category rather than fact, which is where philosophy is useful.

And I'm not really sure how relevant a definition of free will is to understanding how our minds work. Were going to work the way we work regardless of the labels you slap on it. But then again, why are scientific definitions a matter for philosophy to decide? They're shorthand descriptions of observations about reality, which is right in the middle of what science does.

It's not that I don't think philosophy is inherently incapable of helping, but the evidence so far is that they haven't been doing a great job keeping up with actual research.
 
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