Millerite's 1844 message similar to Disciples Palm Sunday msg - both get some detail wrong.II

[BobRyan]

Because discussing Millerite and SDA history is of interest to SDAs and is allowed on the Traditional SDA forum...

Two examples - of quoting correct texts (all scripture is "correct") and yet having "some" wrong expectations - where the message is ordained of God and necessary to the plan of the Gospel.

Group A. John the baptizer and the Palm Sunday message about Christ "as king"

--instead of Christ "coming as savior of the world to die for our sins - condemned as a criminal - then rising again on the third day"-- which is the message Christ preaches in Matthew 16.

Group B. The Millerite message about Daniel 7 and 8 - the right timeline as defined in the Bible. the right words of the text... the wrong expectation.

Both groups approved of by God.

Both get some details wrong.

The texts each group quotes are correct.. .but then each group later admits that they get some detail wrong. They had the wrong expectation.

============================

Human nature being what it is , there was no way to gather a lot of public interest and support for a Palm Sunday message of the form "Jesus will be condemned and crucified this week - but will rise again the third day".

And also in 1844 the message -- "Jesus will begin the Most Holy Place second-phase of his high priestly ministry today -- that starts with the judgment of all mankind beginning with Adam", would have far less appeal to human nature than would the message that on that same day "The second coming will happen"

The message the disciples gave on Palm Sunday was very much a kind of "drop everything you are doing and focus on this" sort of message.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course the disciples on Palm Sunday were not the only ones to "have some incorrect idea/detail in a God-ordained message" -- notice the case with John the baptizer.

First - the disciples on resurrection Sunday -

Instead of "we were hoping that it was HE who was going to die for our sins, and was willing to be condemned as a criminal".

What do they say?

Luke 19
38 shouting:

“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Luke 24
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel.

They had that "detail wrong" - they expected him to free them from the Romans and establish Israel as a dominant nation on Earth.

So what does Jesus say in Luke 24 "Slow to believe that I came as king to Jerusalem"?? No He did not say that

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

At no point on Palm Sunday are they preaching "Jesus is the Christ who is to suffer death and condemnation then rise the third day"

And I think everyone may agree to this detail.

Irrefutable


====================================== John's message

The gospels say that the door was shut on those who rejected John the baptizer's message. Rejecting John's message - they would not accept Christ.

Luke 7
29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.

John the baptizer - like the disciples on Palm Sunday had the wrong idea about Christ "are you the one we seek? Or do we seek another" asks John of Christ also in Luke 7

Luke 7
8 The disciples of John reported to him about all these things. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” 20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’”

. Both John and the disciples on Palm Sunday proclaimed only the role of Christ as King and not the Matthew 16 view of Christ going to Jerusalem to be condemned and die for the sins of the world. Yet their message - flawed as it was - was a needed first-step to accepting Christ. Those who rejected Christ as John proclaimed Him - would not accept Him as Savior either.

So then "details" missing or even mistaken in something John was predicting and something the disciples were predicting on Palm Sunday -- yet still the messages were of God. Rejecting those messages - results in rejecting further light.

==============================

Interesting that in Matthew 16 Jesus did not claim that He was coming to Jerusalem to be crowned king. So then Peter says in Matthew 16 "oh no Lord - may it never be!"

But Jesus does say that "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" (the message they were giving on Palm Sunday) is in fact correctly applied as a reference to Christ as King of all the Earth at the 2nd coming (not his first coming).

Matthew 23
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[BobRyan]

Because the Millerites (and almost all other Christians of their day) inserted the 2nd coming as context for Daniel 7 and Daniel 8:14 the cleansing of the sanctuary -- they took the timelines associated with 7 and 8 -- and put a specific date on the 2nd coming. Which was a mistake.

What about Seventh-day Adventists - did they also do that?

I think all will agree that Ellen White never gave a date for the 2nd coming of Christ

She never said the Millerite prediction of the 2nd coming was in fact when the 2nd coming was supposed to happen

She never tells SDAs to predict a date for the 2nd coming

There was never a time when the SDA denomination predicted a date for the 2nd coming.

========================

But what about "as a child"? What about "as a Methodist"? What about "As Ellen Harmon" living at home with her parents -- before there even was a Seventh-day Adventist church?

Well in that context - the answer is "yes" -- Ellen Harmon did believe in the dates set by William Miller and other Millerite leaders as the date for the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

John 18
33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” 38 Pilate *said to Him, “What is truth?”

Interesting that Jesus did not claim that He was coming to Jerusalem to be crowned king.

But he does say that "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" (the message they were giving on Palm Sunday) is in fact correctly applied as a reference to Christ as King of all the Earth at the 2nd coming.

Matthew 23
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[BobRyan]

================ Palm Sunday disciples
Luke 19
38 shouting:

“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Which as Christ reminds us -- is what is said at the 2nd coming of Christ

Matthew 23
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


Both the disciples and their detractors took those texts to mean the Messiah was going to come as King to Jerusalem and reign after delivering Israel from all her captivity.

And notice that the disciple admit to the "detail" that they got wrong.. in Luke 24

Luke 24
14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. ... 19 And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel.
They had that "detail wrong" - but quote "the right texts" and the texts have the right message. Their expectation - was wrong.

They were right to expect Christ as King who would destroy the wicked and rescue the righteous. But they had the wrong timing – they were wrong to think that that was His mission 2000 years ago.
What is more they had the right timeline and end point - but the wrong event.

Millerites also get one detail incorrect.

Jesus would be coming back - premillennial visible 2nd coming. but they had the wrong timing. What is more they had the right timeline and end point - but the wrong event.

The post-1844 groups admit that the Millerites got the end-point event wrong and so also did the disciples of Christ in Luke 24 admit that they got the details wrong in their message on Palm Sunday.

=======================

So also the much-quoted text of the Millerites

And in Dan 7
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,

Which they get wrong and yet correctly point to the fact that Dan 7:13-14 points to the same event as Dan 8:13-14

Dan 8
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Both the Millerites and their detractors thought these two texts pointed to the second coming.

Both groups quote the Bible and both wrong about a detail in it.

And both groups have the divine approval that they did as God directed - yet had some mistake in the end-point detail.

Irrefutable.

===============

What was their "palm sunday" message according to Matthew 21?

Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
And both groups of disciples admit they were mistaken --

Notice that this quotes the OT and is the message God wanted to have proclaimed.

Even though it does not contain Christ's Matthew 16 statement as His "mission" for going to Jerusalem on Passover.

Matthew 16 - Christ told the disciples he was NOT going to be king in Jerusalem - but rather killed there and rise again.

Yet both are defended by God in giving their attention-getting message.

1. On Palm Sunday - 2000 years ago
2. During the Millerite preaching.

Today the non-Christian Jews continue to condemn the Palm Sunday message of the disciples - while Christians celebrate it. Even though they admit they were mistaken on the end-point event.

Today the non-SDA Christians continue to condemn the Millerite message while SDAs celebrate it -- event though we admit they the millerites were mistaken on the end-point event.

But Miller had important truth to get out to the world

• the pre-millennial second cominig message he pioneered is unquestionably correct
• and his day-for-year doctrine for all apocalyptic timelines is unquestionably correct as most Protestants would have known in his day.
  
• and his starting point for both the 2300 years of Dan 8 and the 490 years is irrefutably correct
  
• and the end point of the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8 - does get to the year 1844.
• And Christ's second coming would not only be pre-millennial but would also be visible and literal.

And he quotes Dan 7 Christ coming with the clouds of heaven as well as Daniel 8:13-14 the 2300 year timeline to make his case.

Such that Rev 10 predicts this message that would be enthusiastically preached but would have some disappointment. (A component of both Miller's experience and the experience of the disciples after Palm Sunday)

 

[BobRyan]

=============== regarding John the baptizer and Christ's disciples

They had correct message in proclaiming Christ as King that would come to destroy the wicked and rescue the righteous. But the wrong timing - He does that at the 2nd coming -- not the first.

At the first coming the message would be the one Christ gives in Matthew 16 that He would be condemned and crucified and rise again the third day.

They also had the right prophetic timeline - the 490 years of Daniel 9... but they were looking for something much more like the 2nd coming event that is "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" which Christ says in Matthew 23 is a 2nd-coming event idea.

============ as for William Miller

Miller also had correct message in proclaiming Christ as King that would come to destroy the wicked and rescue the righteous. But the wrong timing -

Miller also had the right prophetic timeline - the 2300 years of Daniel 8 point to 1844... but the wrong event for "the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven" in Dan 7 and the "sanctuary will be cleansed" in Dan 8:14 KJV/NKJV.


========= so then back to the disciples and their message

Palm Sunday disciples get one detail incorrect

Luke 19: 38 shouting:
“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Which as Christ reminds us -- is what is said at the 2nd coming of Christ

Matthew 23
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

By contrast - for the first coming event the message Christ said was correct - is in Matthew 16 - that Christ would be condemned, crucified and raised the third day.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I believe sister White speaks of this similarity between the disappointed apostles and the Millerites...

Just finished watching "Tell the World"... great production of the early Advent movement.

 

[reddogs]

Bob, where is the link to "Disciples Palm Sunday msg" or are you just using scripture...?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, where is the link to "Disciples Palm Sunday msg" or are you just using scripture...?

================ Palm Sunday disciples

Luke 19
38 shouting:

“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Which as Christ reminds us -- is what is said at the 2nd coming of Christ

Matthew 23
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


Both the disciples and their detractors took those texts to mean the Messiah was going to come as King to Jerusalem and reign after delivering Israel from all her captivity.

Here is the Palm Sunday statement ... in Luke 19
Luke 19
38 shouting:

“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”