Micro to Macro: Working Backwards

[Loudmouth]

I think everyone can agree that the bridge between chimps and humans requires macroevolution.

Scientists view this bridge as being crossed by the accumulation of microevolutionary events. That is, each generation is born with new mutations. This is microevolution. Over time, this adds up to larger changes if you compare a distant ancestral generation to the current generation. More importantly, if a population splits into two groups that no longer share DNA, then DIFFERENT mutations will accumulate in each population. Over time, this causes the two current populations to look different from each other.

For this thread, we are going to use a very real example. Below is a direct comparison of human and chimps DNA. The top sequence (Query) is human DNA. The sequence below it, joined by the vertical lines where the bases match, is the homologous chimp sequence (Sbjct). As you can see, over 527 bases there are 9 places where the sequences differ.

The challenge:

Change one difference at a time, in either the human and chimp sequence, until the two sequences are the same. Tell us at which point macroevolution has occurred.

 

[AV1611VET]

The challenge:

Change one difference at a time, in either the human and chimp sequence, until the two sequences are the same. Tell us at which point macroevolution has occurred.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

I'm not playing your connect-the-dots game.

If you can't daisy-chain it, don't expect me to bridge any of your gaps on principle.

 

[biggles53]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

I'm not playing your connect-the-dots game.

If you can't daisy-chain it, don't expect me to bridge any of your gaps on principle.

Ummm.....they ARE 'daisy-chained', as you childishly put it.....

Each of those minor changes requires just a SINGLE ADJUSTMENT each time...

Stick a fork in yourself.....

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ummm.....they ARE 'daisy-chained', as you childishly put it.....

Each of those minor changes requires just a SINGLE ADJUSTMENT each time...

Stick a fork in yourself.....

Violence, my goodness! That is a but much.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ummm.....they ARE 'daisy-chained',

Nope ... they shore ain't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Nope ... they shore ain't.

Ok, where is stuff missing then?

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok, where is stuff missing then?

Have you ever heard of missing links?

 

[biggles53]

Nope ... they shore ain't.

Indeed they are.....there are no 'gaps' to bridge....

All that needs to occur is for each of those DNA bases to be inaccurately copied (mutated) ONCE each.....so, instead of guanine, it is replaced with adenine, or thiamine with cytosine, etc......

No intermediary change required for each of these, nothing 'missing' to fill in....very simple basic changes....

 

[biggles53]

Have you ever heard of missing links?

Can't follow simple instructions, can you...?

Change one difference at a time, in either the chimp and human sequence, until the two sequences are the same...

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can always "defeat" evolution by demanding too much detail.

AV thinks that it is not proved if we don't have one fossil for every single change.

Unfortunately by his standards he cannot prove he is himself. His wife can't prove that she is his wife. All sorts of insanity results from his hypocritical demand.

Also addressing the statement of the OP that the difference between chimps and apes is "macro-evolution", I have to disagree. Examples were given to other creationists of early mammals, and the changes were called "micro-evolution" I would contend that the differences were greater between these early mammals were further apart than chimps and man.

 

[AV1611VET]

Indeed they are.....there are no 'gaps' to bridge....

All that needs to occur is for each of those DNA bases to be inaccurately copied (mutated) ONCE each.....so, instead of guanine, it is replaced with adenine, or thiamine with cytosine, etc......

No intermediary change required for each of these, nothing 'missing' to fill in....very simple basic changes....

Then daisy-chain all these "simple changes," or your point can take a hike.

I'm not going to play DNA guessing games, and I'm certainly not going to play connect-the-dots.

I'd rather stick a fork in myself.

 

[AV1611VET]

Can't follow simple instructions, can you...?

Yes, I can follow simple instructions on paper.

But if Mother Nature didn't do it -- or leave behind evidence that she did -- don't expect me to.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, I can follow simple instructions on paper.

But if Mother Nature didn't do it -- or leave behind evidence that she did -- don't expect me to.

She can do both, and has.

We know that you can't.

 

[AV1611VET]

She can do both, and has.

Then show me ... and I don't want to see shadows, either.

 

[biggles53]

Then daisy-chain all these "simple changes," or your point can take a hike.

I'm not going to play DNA guessing games, and I'm certainly not going to play connect-the-dots.

I'd rather stick a fork in myself.

Fine.....position 71: adenine replaced with cytosine.

Would you like me to describe the other 8, or do you think you can manage on your own....?

 

[AV1611VET]

Fine.....position 71: adenine replaced with cytosine.

Would you like me to describe the other 8, or do you think you can manage on your own....?

Biggles, I'm not going to play connect-the-dots on paper.

Anyone can paint by numbers.

You want me to walk by sight, when it comes to evolution?

Then you'd better give me something concrete to look at; and not just alphabet soup.

 

[biggles53]

Biggles, I'm not going to play connect-the-dots on paper.

Anyone can paint by numbers.

You want me to walk by sight, when it comes to evolution?

Then you'd better give me something concrete to look at; and not just alphabet soup.

Oh I see.....this from one of the men that tell us that there is a god we can't see, a Flood which left no evidence and a book we should trust written by authors that nobody knows....!

And the 'concrete' you seek is right there in yours and every chimp's genome...!

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh I see.....this from one of the men that tell us that there is a god we can't see, a Flood which left no evidence and a book we should trust written by authors that nobody knows....!

I also make it clear I walk by faith, and not by sight.

If you can see past the "crossing the street with my eyes closed" jokes that follow, maybe -- just maybe -- you'll understand.

But in this case, I'll role-play a person walking by sight and see if you guys can do the same.

And the 'concrete' you seek is right there in yours and every chimp's genome...!

I'm not going to accept that my genomes started from Homo ergaster, then went through Homo erectus, then went through Homo neanderthalensis, then went through Homo Cro-magnon -- (or whatever the correct order is) -- if you can't demonstrate that all these Homos are interconnected.

 

[Styx87]

Biggles, I'm not going to play connect-the-dots on paper.

Anyone can paint by numbers.

You want me to walk by sight, when it comes to evolution?

Then you'd better give me something concrete to look at; and not just alphabet soup.

This is concrete. Concrete enough to secure a life or death sentence in murder trials without other evidence to corroborate it. In other words that "Alphabet soup" that makes you a human beings is LEGAL EVIDENCE that you're an APE.

What I really think it is... it's not so much that you won't connect the dots, I think you can't connect the dots.

On the OP: Since we're working backwards, Macroevolution wold be before we start changing things back. Microevolution would be everytime we change a sequence back so that they match again. Microevolution is just small steps to Macroevolution. If it's possible to walk a foot then it's possible to walk a mile.

Microevolution....

Macro evolution (100 pennies = 1 dollar)

The only difference between Humans and Chimps is the number of mutations since our common ancestor. Besides that, we're identical

 

[AV1611VET]

This is concrete. Concrete enough to secure a life or death sentence in murder trials without other evidence to corroborate it. In other words that "Alphabet soup" that makes you a human beings is LEGAL EVIDENCE that you're an APE.

My Lawyer says otherwise.

What I really think it is... it's not so much that you won't connect the dots, I think you can't connect the dots.

Neither can you ... or you would answer my Daisy-Chain Challenge.

Macro evolution (100 pennies = 1 dollar)

Nice pic of 100 pennies making a dollar.

Haeckel would be proud.

But the truth of the matter is, you guys are using pictures to fill in missing links.

A person looks at that and his/her mind forgets about the gaps that exist between species.

Gaps that shouldn't be there, because they really aren't gaps at all.

Genesis 1 is not an account of life daisy-chaining, it is an account of life springing into action instantly, having maturity without a history.