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MichaelThe Arch Angel

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Michael The Arch Angel
    It is impossible for Michael to be Jesus. (Yahshua)


    Revelation 12:7-11
    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels (messengers) fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels (messengers) fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

    So how did Michael and his angels (messengers) overcome Satan?

    Answer: By the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony.

    So if Michael and his messengers overcame Satan by the blood of the LAMB, then Michael cannot be the Lamb?

    Hebrews 1:5

    For to which of the angels (messengers) did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
    It was to Yahshua, the messenger of the New Covenant, that God said, “you are may Son.”


    Crown of life and related scriptures.

    1 Corinthians 9:25
    Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

    Philippians 4:1
    Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends!

    1 Thessalonians 2:19
    For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?

    2 Timothy 4:8
    Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    Hebrews 2:7
    You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

    Hebrews 2:9
    But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    James 1:12
    Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

    1 Peter 5:4
    And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    Revelation 2:10
    Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

    Revelation 3:11
    I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

    Revelation 6:2
    I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

    Revelation 19:12
    His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.


    Daniel 10:13
    But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes (Ministers), came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
    21 days is the 21st century.

    Daniel 10:21
    but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince (Minister.)
    How come Christ is not getting all the support he needs? It is because the people have been lead astray.

    Daniel 12:1
    “At that time Michael, the great prince (Minister) who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    In Hebrew the words “prince-s,” here in Daniel above, should have been translated as minister-s.



    Related scriptures pertaining to the horses.
    Zechariah 1:8
    During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

    Zechariah 6:6
    The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”

    Revelation 6:2
    I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

    Revelation 19:11
    [ The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast ] I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

    Revelation 19:14
    The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.



    The pope wears a triple crown, so therefore it is not him. The crown in Rev 6 is a single crown. All TRUE Christians receive a crown of life. [That’s in scriptures] The bow with no arrow means that he takes action without violence. Christ has many crowns and many arrows and rides a white horse. The "Red horse-s is Islam in the Middle East."
     
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  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Hello!
     
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! - Isaiah 14:12

    Lucifer - heylel in the Hebrew (light bearer) from halal - Or to shine
    ***Note as this is a Hebrew word it is not a king of Babylon

    And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. - Revelation 12:3-4

    I believe that before the big bang there were three sets of Arch-Angels....

    1. Michael - Over strong angels
    2. Gabriel - Over wise angels
    3. Lucifer -Over worshiping angels

    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Corinthians 11:14

    Angel of light, heylel, light bearer.

    Michael = "who is like God"

    or is it

    Michael = "who is like God?"

    Is Michael such a mighty angel that he is like God? Well, maybe no, but I believe he is a strong angel!
     
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Gabriel = "warrior of God" or "man of God"

    I would say that Gabriel is also a strong and a mighty angel.
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The word Michael is a question. Who is like God?
     
  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There are at least four people that are chief messengers.
     
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Well... The Arch-Angels put his position in perspective. I would say that he also is arch angel over a third of the mighty angels.

    It looks like Christ Jesus himself petitioned Michael for help in the Daniel chapter 10 story...

    5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
    6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
    7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
    8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
    9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
    10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
    11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
    12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. - Daniel 10
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    How many arch-angels do you account for? I would say three, as it is said...

    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. - Revelation 12:4
     
  9. Hall

    Hall God is good

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    I don't have an argument with that. Why, who believes Michael the arc angel is Jesus?
     
  10. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Michael, did you want to discuss this with Mormons? because they can't post in here.
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The thread was for anyone. I did not know that Mormons could not post here. Are you sure of that?
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The JW are taught that Michael is Yahshua.
     
  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There are four persons that circle the throne.


    The Bible uses the terms מלאך אלהים (melakh Elohiym; messenger of God), מלאך יהוה (melakh Adonai; messenger of the Lord), בני אלוהים (b'nai Elohiym; sons of God) and הקודשים (ha-qodeshim; the holy ones) to refer to beings traditionally interpreted as angels. The word "angel" in English (from Old English and German Engel), French (from Old French angele), Spanish, and many other Romance languages are derived from the Latin angelus, itself derived from Koine Greek: άγγελος, angelos, "messenger" (pl. άγγελοι). The ultimate etymology of that word in Greek is uncertain.


    The rationalist view of angels, as held by Maimonides, Gersonides, Samuel Ibn Tibbon, etc., states that God's actions are never mediated by a violation of the laws of nature. Rather, all such interactions are by way of messengers. Maimonides harshly states that the average person's understanding of the term "angel" is ignorant in the extreme.


    According to Maimonides, the wise man understands that what the Bible and Talmud refer to as "angels" are actually metaphors for laws of nature, or the principles by which the universe operates.


    The origin of angels in history is quite complicated to figure out, due to angels or similar spirit beings being found within many cultures around the globe.


    Angels are also found within Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian and Greek writings. Serapis (Latin spelling, or Sarapis in Greek) was a syncretic Hellenistic-Egyptian god in Antiquity. It is well known that ancient Sumerian texts predated the Hebrew book of Genesis, including the idea of the existence of angels.

    Although called different names, angels can also be found within other religions, mythologies, and lore. Hinduism has avatars, Buddhism has devas and bodhisattvas, the Greeks wrote about daimons, and other spirit beings similar to angels, such as guardian spirits and spirit guides, have been taught by tribal cultures.


    The reality is this from a biblical perspective. A messenger of God is a person either here on earth, or from the Kingdom of God. The number of wings is symbolic of status, nothing more. The difference being a real person, or Pagan mythology.
     
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  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Enoch imply that Michael is a man born here on earth, which does not agree with verse 9 of the Book of Jude.

    In regards to Jude, verse 9, when did the Arch Angel Michael dispute with Satan, about the body of Moses? Scripture does not say, and nowhere else is it mentioned in Scripture.

    The Assumption of Moses, which is also called the Testament of Moses. See: (When Critics Ask) p.549 and the (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) p.430 for more info. Peter David's in (Hard Sayings of the Bible) p.754-756 says that we have most of the Assumption of Moses, except for the ending, which presumably contained that verse.

    Origen did not use the book of Jude in his forming of the new testament, because of the insertion of verse nine or Origen did not use the Book of Jude because he thought it was a Gnostic writing.

    The Book of Jude verse 9.

    Yet Michael the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebukes thee.

    Catholics refer to this verse and claim that it is quoting a non-canonical scripture called the Assumption of Moses, in an attempt to approve the principle of Sola Scriptura (The Bible only for doctrine).

    The logic for this I assume to be the following: If the Bible quotes from a non-canonical book, then the Bible is validating the authenticity of that book, as inspired by God to the same level as the Bible itself. Consequently, any doctrinal teaching in that book not taught by the Bible itself, must in any case be just as inspired as the Bible, thus validating the authority of Catholic Tradition.

    By this logic, Sola Scriptura is proposed, and the extra-biblical book is then assumed to be the "inspired word of God," on the same level with the authority of Scripture. So what of this logic, and what proof is there that the Jude 9 quotes this non-canonical book? Well, it was claimed by early church writers- Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus that Jude 9 is a quotation from the book, The Assumption of Moses, yet interestingly enough, there is apparently no surviving portion of that "pseudepigraphical" book, containing the passage that exists today, from which to validate or even investigate that claim.


    Most Christians are not aware that the bible validates the Book of Enoch as scripture. It's my opinion that because verse 9 of Jude contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch and the other parts of the bible, it must have been inserted into the book of Jude.

    Chapter 40 Book of Enoch.

    1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presence's, [different from those that sleep not,] ( The difference between those that sleep not, is those that need sleep ) and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits forever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satan's and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: 'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?' And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days...





    Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

    NOTE: According to Origen the book of Jude is of Gnostic origin, unless he was only referring to verse nine of Jude only; meaning that verse nine is a Gnostic insertion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  15. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I have a terrible migraine, I meant JW's and they can't defend their beliefs here.
     
  16. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    They will just have to sit this one out then. If any JW wants to defend their position they can send a PM to me.
     
  17. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Numbers 21

    1 When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the LORD : "If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities." 3 The LORD listened to Israel's plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.

    4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

    6 Then the LORD sent Seraphims among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

    8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a Seraphim and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

    Isaiah 6:2.
    Above him were seraphims, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

    Isaiah 6:6.
    Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.

    Isaiah 14:29.
    Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, that the rod that struck you is broken; from the root of that snake will spring up a viper, its fruit will be a darting, Seraphim.


    Ezekiel 9:3.
    Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side


    Ezekiel 10:1.
    I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of sapphire above the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim.


    Ezekiel 10:2.
    The LORD said to the man clothed in linen, "Go in among the wheels beneath the cherubim. Fill your hands with burning coals from among the cherubim and scatter them over the city." And as I watched, he went in.


    Ezekiel 10:3.
    Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner court.


    Ezekiel 10:4.
    Then the glory of the LORD rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the LORD.


    Ezekiel 10:5.
    The sound of the wings of the cherubim could be heard as far away as the outer court, like the voice of God Almighty when he speaks.


    Ezekiel 10:6.
    When the LORD commanded the man in linen, "Take fire from among the wheels, from among the cherubim," the man went in and stood beside a wheel.


    Ezekiel 10:7
    Then one of the cherubim reached out his hand to the fire that was among them. He took up some of it and put it into the hands of the man in linen, who took it and went out.


    Ezekiel 10:8
    (Under the wings of the cherubim could be seen what looked like the hands of a man.)


    Ezekiel 10:9
    I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite.


    Ezekiel 10:11
    As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went.


    Ezekiel 10:14
    Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.


    Ezekiel 10:15
    Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.


    Ezekiel 10:16
    When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side.


    Ezekiel 10:17
    When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.


    Ezekiel 10:18
    Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.


    Ezekiel 10:19
    While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the LORD's house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.


    Ezekiel 10:20
    These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim.


    Ezekiel 11:22
    Then the cherubim, with the wheels beside them, spread their wings, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.


    Ezekiel 28:14
    You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.


    Ezekiel 28:16
    Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.


    Ezekiel 1:5
    and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man,


    Ezekiel 1:13
    The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it.


    Ezekiel 1:15
    As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces.


    Ezekiel 1:19
    When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose.


    Ezekiel 1:20
    Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.


    Ezekiel 1:21
    When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.


    Ezekiel 1:22
    Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome.


    Ezekiel 3:13
    the sound of the wings of the living creatures brushing against each other and the sound of the wheels beside them, a loud rumbling sound.


    Ezekiel 10:15
    Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.


    Ezekiel 10:17
    When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.


    Ezekiel 10:20
    These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim.


    Revelation 4:7
    In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.


    Revelation 8:13
    As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three messengers!"



    Revelation 4:8
    Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."


    Revelation 4:9
    Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,


    Revelation 5:6
    Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.


    Revelation 5:8
    And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.


    Revelation 5:11
    Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.


    Revelation 5:14
    The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.


    Revelation 6:1
    I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"


    Revelation 6:3
    When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"


    Revelation 6:5
    When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand.


    Revelation 6:6
    Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"


    Revelation 6:7
    When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"


    Revelation 7:11
    All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,


    Revelation 14:3
    And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.


    Revelation 15:7
    Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.


    Revelation 19:4
    The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: "Amen, Hallelujah!"
     
  18. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures

    Whereas when giving the instructions for the throne, or ark and mercy seat there were only two placed upon it.
     
  19. Hall

    Hall God is good

    453
    +434
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    It's sad that someone would believe that Michael is Jesus, especially when they were taught that since their childhood, it really isn't their fault, it's passed on through generations so they don't know any better but it would be nice if they realized the truth.
     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    +743
    United States
    Oneness
    Private
    US-Others
    I presume that the two represent witnesses.
     
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