Michael Voris update: RealCatholicTV changes it name to ChurchMilitant.TV...

I empathise with ya, G-Com. I was improperly catechised myself. I had to teach myself the faith (otherwise, I wouldn't be Catholic today). I'm a Traditional Catholic like yourself. I attend the TLM whenever possible. However, most Sundays, I hear mass at a Byzantine Catholic chapel that says the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom.

Michael Voris or his program are not issue/problem free but overall I like what Michael Voris has had to say and I don't see any real issues with how he says it. Many of the issues Voris has talked about I have seen myself. Personally I don't think the Truth has to always be wrapped with sugar and spice and everything nice. In faith, business, and personal life, truth is best expressed bluntly. If the Catholic bishops in the US had bluntly pointed out the truth to the LCWR nuns 30 years ago they wouldn't be in the New Age mess they are now.

Ran

G-Com said:

First and foremost, I had enough of the absolute lack of reverence for God in the Novus Ordo "mass" and now attend a genuine, Tridentine Mass-only parish.

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I've heard horror stories of liturgical abuses where someone does something outright bizarre at a Mass, but I've seen very reverent Masses conducted in the vernacular, and I'm not really certain why there is such a disdain for the newer form. The Tridentine Mass is a good thing, but the use of Latin in the Mass caused problems, as well. The introduction of abuses into the liturgy may have been less common, but the use of a language that the majority of Church-goers couldn't understand could cause a disconnect between believers and what should have been the chief expression of their faith. People had a tendency to subordinate the liturgy to expressions of popular piety as a result of the lack of connection between their life of faith and the worship service which should have been what it all centered around.

Conducting the liturgy in the vernacular helps us to better connect with it, and therefore helps us to understand that it is genuinely our worship. That helps us to understand its importance, and ideally increases our reverence for the Mass.

Well, I would say that "miliant" describes Michael Voris much better than "real Catholic."

Kudos for him about being upfront about his real personality.

Fantine said:

Well, I would say that "miliant" describes Michael Voris much better than "real Catholic."

Kudos for him about being upfront about his real personality.

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I have not seen anything "unreal" about Michael Voris as a Catholic.

All Catholics should be ecclesia militan. I often describe myself as ecclesia militan. It does not refer to some nut-case terrorist real to kill for religion, nor does it refer to dungeon masters of the inquisition. Rather it refers to Christians who struggle and fight through life against sin, wickedness, and satan, who are willing to witness for their faith. Is that not what Catholics and other Christians should do? I'm very proud to be ecclesia militan. I'm only ashamed of how I fall short as a Catholic.

Ran

Welcome to our community, ad-bot. I'm sure Mr. Voris is as honest and pure as you are.

I wonder if churchmilitanttv has an area where people can promote /my/ for-profit ramblings?

Credo111 said:

I've heard Michael Voris described in this thread as "mean" and "insincere". Sorry, I don't know what you're watching, but he is one of the kindest, humblest, most sincere human beings around. He can be provocative in The Vortex, but that's intentional. You should check out ChurchMilitant.TV (formerly RealCatholicTV.com), which has hundreds of hours of catechesis, exegesis, theology, and all manner of content meant to inform and encourage Catholics on the faith. It is WELL worth the $10/month for membership. The Vortex is a TINY fraction of what he does.

Michael has a heart on fire for souls. After his mother's death from cancer, he poured his life savings into buying a studio and starting up this apostolate, all to save souls. It is all that motivates him. What you perceive as lack of charity is precisely the opposite--it is his intense desire to save souls from hell that causes him to speak the truth with boldness and without compromise. Instead of condemning and criticizing, how about familiarizing yourself with the content at ChurchMilitant.TV, praying for his apostolate, and working alongside with him in spirit to save souls?

And by the way, he does indeed regularly attend the TLM, and in fact the new studio has a beautiful altar set up just for the TLM. He of course holds that the Novus Ordo is valid, but his Mass of preference is the TLM--for very obvious reasons.

I myself have been attending the TLM for nearly a decade.

God bless,
Christine

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Fantine said:

Well, I would say that "miliant" describes Michael Voris much better than "real Catholic."

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When Fantine is on the side of our Bishops, you know things got pretty bad.

He comes off as smug in the Vortex, but I still like the majority of what he has to say.

MikeK said:

When Fantine is on the side of our Bishops, you know things got pretty bad.

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Of course maybe "Church Belligerent" would be a more accurate way to describe Voris' media presence.

GlobalWolf2010 said:

I've heard horror stories of liturgical abuses where someone does something outright bizarre at a Mass...

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I've seen too much! If I can find the webpage, I'll post it, but it's got some of the most bizarre, sacrilegious stuff you'll ever come across.

GlobalWolf2010 said:

...but I've seen very reverent Masses conducted in the vernacular...

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Some are better than others. The Tridentine Rite has shown me that even the best Novus Ordo (I refuse to use the term "Ordinary Form") masses suck quite frankly.

GlobalWolf2010 said:

...and I'm not really certain why there is such a disdain for the newer form.

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The Second Vatican Council. Yeah, I know it wasn't created in earnest during the council, but it is an undeniable fact that changes were discussed (and had actually been going on in small circles for years before it) and the mass was changed as a direct result of what happened there.

GlobalWolf2010 said:

The Tridentine Mass is a good thing, but the use of Latin in the Mass caused problems, as well. The introduction of abuses into the liturgy may have been less common, but the use of a language that the majority of Church-goers couldn't understand could cause a disconnect between believers and what should have been the chief expression of their faith. People had a tendency to subordinate the liturgy to expressions of popular piety as a result of the lack of connection between their life of faith and the worship service which should have been what it all centered around. Conducting the liturgy in the vernacular helps us to better connect with it, and therefore helps us to understand that it is genuinely our worship. That helps us to understand its importance, and ideally increases our reverence for the Mass.

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How about "connecting" more with the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? Not the priest, the nuns, the music, the eucharistic ministers, the signs of peace, etc. I may not understand a lot of what the priest says (mostly because I'm not terribly fluent in Latin and also because of hearing issues,) but my attention is on God alone.

I've rarely seen that at a Novus Ordo mass.

G-Com said:

I've seen too much! If I can find the webpage, I'll post it, but it's got some of the most bizarre, sacrilegious stuff you'll ever come across.

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Yeah...hence why I'm not going to claim that there haven't been abuses. Celebrating the Mass in the vernacular allows the faithful to better understand it's wording, but this can sometimes unfortunately lead to more "innovative" priests making the decision that the liturgy itself is just a form of communication with the audience rather than an actual act of worship. This can lead to the treatment of something sacred in a way that introduces too much of the profane (used in the sense of "everyday" in this context). It's not appropriate, but it's not inherent to celebrating the Mass in the vernacular.

Some are better than others. The Tridentine Rite has shown me that even the best Novus Ordo (I refuse to use the term "Ordinary Form") masses suck quite frankly.

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Here's where we begin to differ. I think that the Tridentine Mass only feels more reverent due to the more traditional and more formal trappings associated with it. It's like saying that a baroque cathedral feels more reverent than a Church with a modern design. I won't disagree that it's more beautiful (I really, really like baroque), but the degree of reverence comes from the intention and culture of those designing it. You see the highly stylized form of the Tridentine Mass as more reverent, but that is subjective rather than universal.

The Second Vatican Council. Yeah, I know it wasn't created in earnest during the council, but it is an undeniable fact that changes were discussed (and had actually been going on in small circles for years before it) and the mass was changed as a direct result of what happened there.

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There are two problematic views of Vatican II that exist on the Church today. The first is that it signaled a radical break in the continuity of the Church's history and that we all need to move in a "forward" direction and implement liberal "reforms" into the Church. This is incorrect. Vatican II, like any other ecumenical council, can only be understood in light of their role in the continuity of the Church's teachings. All of the councils prior to Vatican II taught truth, as well, and Vatican II must be understood in the context of continuing their tradition. I believe that the second view of Vatican II, the view that it should be rejected for teaching heresy, is more a result of the problems brought about by the first view than by Vatican II itself.

How about "connecting" more with the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? Not the priest, the nuns, the music, the eucharistic ministers, the signs of peace, etc. I may not understand a lot of what the priest says (mostly because I'm not terribly fluent in Latin and also because of hearing issues,) but my attention is on God alone.

I've rarely seen that at a Novus Ordo mass.

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While it's true that our intention should be on God alone, we worship as a community at the Mass. As such, it's important that we all understand what is happening. The existence of a radical disconnect between our worship lives and the liturgy has been a problem in the past, just as issues with an improper understanding of Catholic moral teaching are a problem with the laity now. Improved catechetics are necessary to solve the modern problem, and a shift in the liturgy to bring it closer to the lives of the faithful was necessary to solve the problems of the past. Catechetics might also be useful in helping the faithful to understand that our liturgy is predominantly focused on the presence of Christ in the Mass, especially in a largely Protestant culture where our neighbors hold worship services which obviously do not have the same focus at their center. Many Catholics in the U.S. today are more heavily influenced by the dominant culture than by Church teachings, and since the dominant culture is Protestant and has worship services which focus on the teaching of a pastor rather than on the physical re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice, it's easier for Catholics here in America to allow their worship to be more reflective of the typical Protestant form than of authentic Catholic worship (not that there isn't a place for the style of preaching common in Protestant communities, but it cannot replace the liturgy and we should not try to get it to).

I love how this wonderful myth has sprung up that there were no liturgical abuses prior to the 1970 Missale Romanum.

Evagrius said:

I love how this wonderful myth has sprung up that there were no liturgical abuses prior to the 1970 Missale Romanum.

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I don't know. I wasn't alive yet (actually, my mother may or may not have been alive yet, and my dad was a young toddler who wouldn't have cared about liturgical abuses even if he had been Catholic)

I'm sort of assuming that it was less easy to slip liturgical abuses into the older form, though, and they would have had to have been doctrinally based rather than simply an effort to "engage" the congregation through "innovation", since most of them would have had absolutely no idea what was going on.

I disagree. If you can ignore rubrics in one missal, you can ignore rubrics in another missal just as easily.

Dylan Michael said:

Bingo. Even when I did agree with what he was saying, it was the way he said it that put me off. He always came off as a pompous, holier-than-thou kinda guy. (He seems to fit the negative stereotype of TLM attendees, that you often see flung about)

In conclusion, as my mother says "It's not what you say, it's how you say it".

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That's how people sell sand in deserts and ice in alaska! Is your mother a sales agent?

Evagrius said:

I disagree. If you can ignore rubrics in one missal, you can ignore rubrics in another missal just as easily.

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Maybe, but when those who are listening to you don't speak the language that you're using, it does reduce the incentive to alter the wording of the Mass. You usually have to have both ability and motivation to do something, after all. Speaking in Latin with the only being present who can understand you being God Himself, you're only likely to alter the words if you believe that you need to in an effort to please Him, so you would have to have doctrinal differences with the Church before you would do it.

Credo111 said:

By the way, here is a great interview Michael did a few weeks back, in which he discusses his powerful conversion story, among other things:

I'm unable to post the link, but google "Up Close with Michael Voris" & "Colleen Hammond", and it should appear.

Michael is a regular guest of this radio show, where he checks in each week and gives a brief update of his whereabouts and goings on. The next show should be Sunday night, June 24th, 8-10 p.m. eastern time, in case you're interested.
Christine

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Thanks; I'll look into it.

isshinwhat said:

He comes off as smug in the Vortex, but I still like the majority of what he has to say.

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Ah, that's probably what I was thinking earlier. That was the something that bothered me earlier that I couldn't put my finger on.

Evagrius said:

I love how this wonderful myth has sprung up that there were no liturgical abuses prior to the 1970 Missale Romanum.

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Actually there were abuses prior to. They did happen. Saying mass in twenty-minutes flat; rushing the prayers was one of them.

No-one says that it was 'perfect' prior the Liturgical Revolution; but it was better doctrinally and liturgically.


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Global: It's mainly the prayers that got me. I read and saw the depth of the prayers years before I ever actually was able to attend the TLM. It was humility and depth of the Tridentine Mass that made me want to go. It is so much more Catholic; explicitly and in depth than the Novus Ordo. That's why waited years to want to go to one; I wasn't disappointed. I got the same reverence and holiness from the Holy Ghost a Byzantine Mass, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom as well. Truly an encounter with God and a 'meeting of Heaven and Earth'.

I prefer RealCatholicTV.com.

But I don't own it, soooooo...