Michael Ingham

[RMDY]

Apparently this bishop believes that Jesus is not the only way.

 

[TomUK]

Apparently this bishop believes that Jesus is not the only way.

Do you have a link?

 

[RMDY]

Article

 

[TomUK]

Article

Yep, that's quite explicit! I could almost understand if he preached a form of universalism where, through the activity of Christ salvation is open to all (I don't agree with that theology but at least can recognise there is a scriptural root for it) but he goes about 3 steps further and explicitly rejects even that form of universalism.

If that article accurately represents bishop Ingham's views then to be totally frank he is not fit to be a bishop. I think we all need to pray for this man and all who depend on him for spiritual support.

 

[RMDY]

Yep, that's quite explicit! I could almost understand if he preached a form of universalism where, through the activity of Christ salvation is open to all (I don't agree with that theology but at least can recognise there is a scriptural root for it) but he goes about 3 steps further and explicitly rejects even that form of universalism.

If that article accurately represents bishop Ingham's views then to be totally frank he is not fit to be a bishop. I think we all need to pray for this man and all who depend on him for spiritual support.

This is the same man that began the road to schism in the Anglican Church of Canada between conservatives and liberals.

 

[Lindapoq]

Well it is not orthodox Christianity at all. It sounds more like Unitarianism to me. Am I wrong or is this not wide spread in the higher leadership of the TEC?

 

[RMDY]

What is the TEC?

 

[Lindapoq]

The Episcopal Church in America

 

[RMDY]

The Episcopal Church in America

Hmmmm. I believe they have strayed into a dangerous direction by blessing same-sex unions and ordaining a gay bishop....


Who am I to judge? They will be called to account one day...

 

[Lindapoq]

Hmmmm. I believe they have strayed into a dangerous direction by blessing same-sex unions and ordaining a gay bishop....


Who am I to judge? They will be called to account one day...

I think the blessing of same sex unions is just a secondary issue to the more important one that the much of the leadership of the TEC seems to have denied the basics of the Christian faith. Take the individual mentioned in the OP. HE denys that Christ is the only way of Salvation among other crazy things.

All I know is that I do not think too many people are going to be drawn to such church. You need the Holy Spirit to add to the church. Will He work where the Word of GOd is denied?

 

[MKJ]

Bishop Ingham has been a disaster for the Anglican Church of Canada. There is a real split going on and rather than make some attempt at working to prevent it, he seems to want to tear it open. He is very popular with some people - OTOH, his is one of the diocese where people are abandoning him for alternate episcopal oversight. Which historically is a real difficulty and people are critical of them for that, but I can't blame them. I am not sure why a bishop who is completely apostate cannot be set aside - that has been done in the (distant) past, and sometimes more violently too.

I have never been able to figure out why a person would belong to a church when he disagreed with its fundamental beliefs. And to claim a leadership position. It seems very dishonest to me. I think he would fit in just fine in the Unitarian Church. So why stay in the ACC? Money? Nice vestments? Hubris?

But really there isn't much of a way to get rid of a Bishop for his beliefs. What documents can we set his beliefs against to see if they are Anglican? The liturgy has been gutted. Tradition is no longer understood as anything other than something completely malleable and changeable. We have no magisterial, and we don't want one. (The Orthodox have been successful in maintaining themselves through liturgy and Tradition, but have also maintained their liturgy in a much more intact way and still understand Tradition theologically.) It seems in the Anglican churches all the power rests at the level of the Bishop - even ordination liturgies tend to emphasize this more than they used to.

 

[RMDY]

Indeed, I pray the ACONA overtakes the Anglican Church of Canada and roots out these heretical shepards who undermine Christ.

 

[JasonV]

Is that article really from 1997?

Did anyone bother to read this article and see this?:

"(Bishop) Ingham also rejected inclusivism, the belief that Jesus would save people outside the Christian faith, because it retained exclusivism's "imperialistic" and "absolutist" character. And although he embraces a form of pluralism, he acknowledged that pluralism also has its problems...."

The article continues with Bp. Ingham asking us to "transcend theology" and "experience God directly". Sounds like Theosis to me, a very "orthodox" belief.

 

[RMDY]

Is that article really from 1997?

Did anyone bother to read this article and see this?:

"(Bishop) Ingham also rejected inclusivism, the belief that Jesus would save people outside the Christian faith, because it retained exclusivism's "imperialistic" and "absolutist" character. And although he embraces a form of pluralism, he acknowledged that pluralism also has its problems...."

The article continues with Bp. Ingham asking us to "transcend theology" and "experience God directly". Sounds like Theosis to me, a very "orthodox" belief.

I disagree. Michael's solution is to follow all religions....

"Ingham said he rejects exclusivism -- the belief that only those who profess a belief in Jesus Christ can be saved -- because it "distorts" the Bible and because it suggests that God would condemn billions of people simply because they have never heard of Jesus. To Ingham, such a God would be "abhorrent," "repugnant" and "im-moral," "not like the loving father of whom Jesus spoke, but like an abusive father.".....

The solution, Ingham said, was to transcend theology altogether and follow the "monks and mystics" of all religions who experience God directly....."

 

[MKJ]

Mysticism has an important place in pretty much all religions. But of course it never constitutes religion on its own, and for good reason. Having had a mystical experience, a person has to make sense of it. And if such an experience is really of the unchanging divine nature, then it may have application to all people, not just the one who experiences it. Which means exclusivity. On the other hand if it isn't of the unchanging divine nature, than it's just a trip.

 

[JasonV]

I disagree. Michael's solution is to follow all religions....

"Ingham said he rejects exclusivism -- the belief that only those who profess a belief in Jesus Christ can be saved -- because it "distorts" the Bible and because it suggests that God would condemn billions of people simply because they have never heard of Jesus. To Ingham, such a God would be "abhorrent," "repugnant" and "im-moral," "not like the loving father of whom Jesus spoke, but like an abusive father.".....

The solution, Ingham said, was to transcend theology altogether and follow the "monks and mystics" of all religions who experience God directly....."

Clearly he's using the "monks" quote to draw from a commonality of all faiths. Yet from both my quotes and your own, it appears he hasn't yet solidified his Christology.

 

[Inside Edge]

First, it would be nice if people would, at least from here on in, stop referring to Bishop Michael & his diocese as part of the "TEC." While the Anglican Church of Canada is on good terms with TEC, Bishop Michael is part of the Anglican Church of Canada, Bishop of the Diocese of New Westminster (Vancouver area of British Columbia, Canada).

With that straightened out, I find a lot of this banter sort of humorous - classic generalized discussion of a person who most involved have very little information or knowledge about. Nonetheless, I will say some of the speculation is a good approximation, although no good enough to sink your teeth into.

Yes, Bishop Michael is quite liberal in terms of theology, Christology, social values, etc. He is very open to many ideas which conservatives will consider "unorthodox," and where many liberals will gladly take the oppotunity to challenge what "orthodox" really is (in other words, casting his orthodoxy or lack thereof off is a pretty fruitless debate, I think). My best estimation, having met and spoken with him on a few occassions, and having heard him speak on a few others, is that he seems to apply a sort of "reserve judgement" school of thought. Where the conservative charges in this thread "sort of" apply - he is very liberal, open to shades of universalism, etc - I doubt he has any sort of convicted, set-in-stone ideas or beliefs regarding them.

The reason I can't run with the charges that he's some sort of heretic or what have you is that I've heard him speak, at length, and often he sounds far more conservative (or at the least a "convicted Christian") than one might expect, especially when one has prejudged him with the reputation that seems to always precede him.

Yes, I would agree he's very liberal. Yes, he is very much focused on ecumenical issues and bridging gaps between faiths. Yes, he is very much in support of same-sex blessings and homosexual clergy. But I hardly think that one blurb has enough information in it to make blanket statements about his Christology or Theology.

The minimum one could (should?) do to minimize the hot-air effect of commentary would be to check out the Diocesan website. There is plenty current, hard information there to get a slightly better picture of his leadership, along with many resources (like past sermons, etc) which will, I'm sure, prove much better fodder for debate.

So far, I think this is the most succinct and real issue raised in this thread with regards to problems in Bishop Michael's diocese, and the Anglican Church of Canada:

What documents can we set his beliefs against to see if they are Anglican? The liturgy has been gutted. Tradition is no longer understood as anything other than something completely malleable and changeable...It seems in the Anglican churches all the power rests at the level of the Bishop...