(MHC's only) A different perspective for discussion.

[ContraMundum]

Nicene believing Christians can contribute also.

From here:


(About the Hebrew Roots movement)

"The movement overall also suffers from a complete misunderstanding of both God’s motivation in choosing Abraham and his sovereignty in choosing the time when the Eternal Word would become incarnate. The choosing of the Jews had far less to do with God’s preference for Hebrew as it did with His rewarding the faith of Abraham. It also never occurs to these folks that God in His sovereign will chose a time when the Mediterranean world was under the rule of one state (the Roman Empire) whose engineering feats had made quick travel over long distances possible through its vast network of roads, the highly expressive Greek language was the common tongue for learning, and Hellenistic culture had greatly influenced much of the known world since Alexander the Great.


The Greek language is highly suited for philosophical endeavors whereas Biblical Hebrew was relatively simple by comparison. I do not believe it was a coincidence that God chose a time when the infrastructure, language, and culture of an empire allowed an easy expansion of the faith, the widespread use of a language that allowed its forceful defense, and a rich culture that allowed it to be placed in the context of the fulfillment of all that is good within mankind.



Restricting the faith to some alleged “Hebrew Roots” that define a faith other than what ever existed removes two of the great strengths of Christianity - its universality and its historicity. However sincere its proponents may be, they are assuming Christ has never been able to fully realize His purpose for the Church until they came along. And, to borrow a term from the Jews, that’s chutzpah!"

 

[SGM4HIM]

Good article CM. Here's what really stood out to me.

"The disconnect with Christian tradition and the adoption of a tradition that developed over centuries by those who have rejected Jesus as Messiah ends in a cognitive dissidence that not only is noticed by many Christians but many Jews as well. Thus most Jews claim that those in the Messianic movement are not true Jews since they are applying the traditions of Judaism to support claims that it overtly rejects."

I believe this has in part occurred to "over correct" previous injustices and fallacies adopted by certain forms of Christianity (which I think needed to be addressed). Anti-Semitism does prevent many from fulling enjoying God's Plan and understanding the importance and richness of OT and also NT.

This "over correction" has alienated many in the movement from both Jews and Christians.

It saddens me when other Christian's seeking more understanding of Hebrew foundations, post here (especially around 2 holidays) and get blasted. Somehow the spiritual rebirth, new man, Holy Spirit guided walk does not shine as brightly as adherence to particular Laws and practices adopted by Gentile MJ's.

" Is Christ divided?" Not according to 1 Corinthians 1:10.......

 

[ContraMundum]

Good article CM. Here's what really stood out to me.

I've found a number of articles with similar sentiments online- and not all from a liturgical perspective like this one.

"The disconnect with Christian tradition and the adoption of a tradition that developed over centuries by those who have rejected Jesus as Messiah ends in a cognitive dissidence that not only is noticed by many Christians but many Jews as well. Thus most Jews claim that those in the Messianic movement are not true Jews since they are applying the traditions of Judaism to support claims that it overtly rejects."

I believe this has in part occurred to "over correct" previous injustices and fallacies adopted by certain forms of Christianity (which I think needed to be addressed). Anti-Semitism does prevent many from fulling enjoying God's Plan and understanding the importance and richness of OT and also NT.

I'd agree with that.

This "over correction" has alienated many in the movement from both Jews and Christians.

Amen.

It saddens me when other Christian's seeking more understanding of Hebrew foundations, post here (especially around 2 holidays) and get blasted. Somehow the spiritual rebirth, new man, Holy Spirit guided walk does not shine as brightly as adherence to particular Laws and practices adopted by Gentile MJ's.

Again, good call.

" Is Christ divided?" Not according to 1 Corinthians 1:10.......

Amen to that. Some have forgotten that the wall of partition is gone. Instead, they build a new one and move it far away from their friends and brethren and those who have given them an opportunity to know God through giving them the scriptures etc. It's a shame, but I think it has a lot to do with the spirit of rebellion and also the rise of secular individualism in the modern church. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Ivy]

IMHO a lot of Gentiles who get involved with the Messianic movement are exhibiting a need and desire for "1st century faith"........and if they pursue that with sincerity, they end up finding that in a place they may not have been originally expecting.

 

[ContraMundum]

IMHO a lot of Gentiles who get involved with the Messianic movement are exhibiting a need and desire for "1st century faith"........and if they pursue that with sincerity, they end up finding that in a place they may not have been originally expecting.

True....they see the errors of the group that they are involved in and make some errorneous assumptions about where the fullness of the faith might be found. I think others are suffering from the post-modern identity crisis that we see all around the world too.

 

[Ivy]

I'm not sure why there is so much identity crisis in these times. You see a lot of people wanting to be special in some way but not knowing how.

Maybe it relates to the modern tendency to forget the past, break with it.

 

[christianmomof3]

Thank you for sharing that article. It is interesting. I found this part very interesting:

As Shea points out, this new attempt at rewriting history is an illusion. First of all, Judaism at the time of Jesus was not a monolithic religion. Besides the Pharisees (whose beliefs were the foundation of post-Second Temple Judaism), there were also the Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, and a host of other groups to which were added the new movement that followed Jesus. However, it was not the beliefs of the Pharisees that held sway in the Apostolic Church but those of the Apostles and these teachings were passed down through Scripture and ecclesial tradition.
The disconnect with Christian tradition and the adoption of a tradition that developed over centuries by those who have rejected Jesus as Messiah ends in a cognitive dissidence that not only is noticed by many Christians but many Jews as well. Thus most Jews claim that those in the Messianic movement are not true Jews since they are applying the traditions of Judaism to support claims that it overtly rejects. This use of the elements of a tradition without understanding the implications is not unique. Many Protestant fundamentalists deride historic Christianity (see my review of the latest version of this here) while living off one or more of its bequeathed treasures (e.g., Canon of Scripture, Creeds, decrees of the Ecumenical Councils).

It seems that in the time of Jesus, there were many different views within the Jewish religion and some of those views went on in the Christian religion and those views were dropped from the current Jewish religion which is why the two are so different.

Some have forgotten that the wall of partition is gone. Instead, they build a new one and move it far away from their friends and brethren and those who have given them an opportunity to know God through giving them the scriptures etc.

It does seem that the MJ religion is building just a different wall that they are trying to make look like the original one without considering that God tore the first one in two because He did not want His Body to be divided, but rather wants us to be One.

True....they see the errors of the group that they are involved in and make some errorneous assumptions about where the fullness of the faith might be found.

I have seen this also. It seems that people see that there are errors in Christianity - which is true. But then they throw away the baby with the bathwater so to speak and decide to get rid of the whole mess and start over with something else, and in doing so, they are no better than those whom they left behind.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thank you for sharing that article.

My pleasure. It turns out there's quite a few around with the same sentiments and sane approach to the topic.

I have seen this also. It seems that people see that there are errors in Christianity - which is true. But then they throw away the baby with the bathwater so to speak and decide to get rid of the whole mess and start over with something else, and in doing so, they are no better than those whom they left behind.

I'd say that people that try to re-invent Christianity are far worse than the Churches they leave and deride. They take an authority upon themselves that they really don't have. They create division rather than discussion and progress, and worst of all they could possibly even end up enemies of the Body of Christ- and if you attack the body, you attack the Head. The words of Jesus to Saul of Tarsus ring true "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

 

[Eben Abram]

Shalom ALecheim

I am not sure of the nature of the post, but, since I am a Jew albeit a Messianic Jew, I not only accept the Failure of Judaism and the Failure of Christianity, I also accept the Failure of the Messianic Movement,

However having said that, since the post seems so adversely biased against Messianic Jews without accepting the posit, that some, even if only one, might be OK.

I have a question.

Since the statements above preclude a Gentile persuasion in the Millenium, which Nation is given deference?

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

 

[Tishri1]

IMHO a lot of Gentiles who get involved with the Messianic movement are exhibiting a need and desire for "1st century faith"........and if they pursue that with sincerity, they end up finding that in a place they may not have been originally expecting.

I hear ya Ivy

 

[Tishri1]

Shalom ALecheim

I am not sure of the nature of the post, but, since I am a Jew albeit a Messianic Jew, I not only accept the Failure of Judaism and the Failure of Christianity, I also accept the Failure of the Messianic Movement,

However having said that, since the post seems so adversely biased against Messianic Jews without accepting the posit, that some, even if only one, might be OK.

I have a question.

Since the statements above preclude a Gentile persuasion in the Millenium, which Nation is given deference?

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

great question

 

[SGM4HIM]

I am confused by the question.

 

[ContraMundum]

Shalom ALecheim

I am not sure of the nature of the post, but, since I am a Jew albeit a Messianic Jew, I not only accept the Failure of Judaism and the Failure of Christianity, I also accept the Failure of the Messianic Movement,

However having said that, since the post seems so adversely biased against Messianic Jews without accepting the posit, that some, even if only one, might be OK.

I have a question.

Since the statements above preclude a Gentile persuasion in the Millenium, which Nation is given deference?

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

I don't understand the question either- and this thread is meant to be for Jewish Christians who attend Christian churches and perhaps our sympathizers.

 

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Hmmm

I don't understand the question either- and this thread is meant to be for Jewish Christians who attend Christian churches and perhaps our sympathizers.

I attend on Friday a Home Shabbos meeting, errr maybe that is my wife and I and LOTS OF PLANTS.

Err Saturday sometimes I go to Reform, if a coolm presentation is happening, sometimes On a Jewish Holy day, I might be at Chabad, I am partial to if I want flair, sometimes, rarely, I visit a Messianic Cong. on saturday.

AHH SUNDAY, I am rather well known at not a few Calvary Chapels where ever I happen to be living and I have helped behind the scenes a few of them get started and I think MAYBE just maybe a few well known amoung many Hebraic Roots for helping non Jews understand Jews.....ahh can we leave my current wife out of this, She will never understand me.

My hermaneutic and homiletic is secure if that means anything but I really wanted to say,

Many do look to be special and it is a crisis now in the desire to Be more like something or someone the person is not when In reality God saved you as you are.

He and frankly I, thank all people everywhere should have pride in who they are. I love visiting OLD Catholic Church's that in 1974 I found one doing a folk mass and Praising the Lord and doing things I woudl never have thought a Catholic Priest would do, I was shocked, and SOOOO blessed.

So too in many ways people point at waht they don;t like and forget WHO they do, meaning G-d our Father. It is easy if he is leading you to dsicover and relate a more Cultural or Historical perspective, but just as much so that another person might not and still be OK.

In other words One body means feet and legs and well even mouths and togues lol, AND WE ARE ALL of that if we are in Messiah Y'shau ha meshiach.

Now I didn't come to Rock any boats, but a Hebrew Christian is not a new term for this OLD person who has been around and I didn't get how I was implied to be NOT welcome as Hebrew Christian used to exist before the term Messianic ever appeared on the Web for the first time and it is a NEW not an old term usage for Beleivers.

ALecheim Shalom

Eben

 

[ContraMundum]

Now I didn't come to Rock any boats, but a Hebrew Christian is not a new term for this OLD person who has been around and I didn't get how I was implied to be NOT welcome as Hebrew Christian used to exist before the term Messianic ever appeared on the Web for the first time and it is a NEW not an old term usage for Beleivers.

ALecheim Shalom

Eben

No worries Eben. There has always been a lot of confusion over terms etc on this forum. I assumed you self-identified as "Messianic" because of your faith icon. On this forum, the term "Messianic" can refer to a Jew or a Gentile who attends a Messianic congregation- whether it be mainstream or otherwise. Generally, the term "Hebrew Christian" is used to designate Messianic Jewish believers in Jesus who attend mainstream Christian churches, but on this forum "Messianic Hebrew Christian" is used to describe those Jewish believers who attend mainstream churches but still keep their traditions and culture intact.

These terms are generally very permeable, and really just useful in helping people find "safe" spaces on the forum where they won't be ridiculed for their beliefs.

People on this forum are very graceful and forgiving, so just enjoy posting and the rest will take care of itself.

I'm glad to have you here, and hope to see more of your posts.

 

[Eben Abram]

Shalom Alecheim

Thank you for your graciousness and your etiquette. May you be blessed and encouraged in your day and the way you apply all you do with the wisdom you have been given.

Don't tell anyone but usually a casual and simple please do not post will affect me more than most realize(Shhhh) but that is a secret

I actually love words and word meaning as well as a certain flow to them and Messianic Hebrew Christian (for me) always had a nice flow, as a Jew, albeit a Messianic Jew, I have no issue with the word or my heritage as in Christendom, much less my filial heritage as in Judaism, In most ways I am blessed and I enjoy that and embrace both openly and accept no deniablity that I am attached, and in some ways I am cursed so to speak meaning the responsibility and accountability of both can be a great price to bear for I will not shirk that both have apt reason to accuse and make cause and effect actions I would neither would have done, much less, still do.

But if not me, than who?

So, I enjoy as I can and I stand as I must and at times get crucified seemingly when ever all my brethren of which ever ilk they be, seem to chose to allow me the privilege of thier frustration with G-d venting at me rather than He.

(Not sure if listed a gift as this, LOL)

Such a deal......, but....., I know how Paul felt.

Eben

 

[SGM4HIM]

I did not want anyone to think this thread was a Messianic Bashing for sport by outsiders. Many people (even within the Messianic ranks) have also expressed these concerns. Yes, we have all seen some that have sought a first century Apostalic Messianic faith and came out loosing their belief in Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Here is a recent link by Rabi Derek Leman on his thought provoking blog, that everyone needs to take a look at. It includes 6 myths of Messianic fringe thinking. http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/problems-with-messianic-judaism-on-the-fringe/

I personally feel many Christians are going to be drawn to MJ in very large numbers as prophecy unfolds and people desire to link with Israel.
This is good! And this is why these warnings are also important.

 

[ContraMundum]

Interesting link SGM4HIM. I thought he had some good things to say.