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Methodological Supernaturalism

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
One can also say, since we've never gotten a good view of the solar system, the idea of a solar system is just theory and not science.

Again, there's no comparison here to evolution. We can test what we theorize about the solar system. You find mars, see that it moves, and then hypothesize that it orbits around the sun. You figure out what that orbit would be, and then predict where mars would be in two hours if you're right. You point your telescope to look there at the right time, and bingo -- there's mars. So you now have evidence that your theory is correct.

That's not at all how evolution works. Evolutionists look at what is today, and then make up stories about how it could have gotten that way. They don't (can't) test their fairy tales, but they call them facts anyway.

See why here-and-now observation and testing is so important to science?
 
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Evolutionists look at what is today, and then make up stories about how it could have gotten that way. They don't (can't) test their fairy tales, but they call them facts anyway.

See why here-and-now observation and testing is so important to science?

Actually it can be tested as can most history via genetic comparisons, biogeography, fossils (if found in random order would siprove evolution.), and modern observations. Are you saying that it's not possible to test any historical theory? Or that it is unreasonable to speculate on the past given what we observe in the present?
 
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Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
But nick, Astronomy also looks back, so does geology and physics. So there is no difference.

No, when astronomy looks back, it is subject to many of the same failings as evolution. So there is a difference. It's like the split between biology and evolutionary biology. One is science, and the other is metaphysics. You can't make them the same thing by calling then both the same thing, such as "biology" and "astronomy".

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
The here and now predictions are nice, but the bacward looking predictions have given us just as much and probably more knowlege.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm skeptical about many of the conclusions scientists have come to about the past in the universe when these conclusions are based on observation. And many of those conclusions have turned out to be false simply because we CANNOT test them in the same ways we test other things in science.

But astronomers do have one advantage over the evolutionists. They can see things in the past AS THEY ARE HAPPENING. So it's almost as if they are there in the past, watching it happen. You can't do that with evolution. You can't go back in time and look at a dinosaur evolve into a bird. The funny thing about those observations is that they present many unsolved problems, and IMO, one reason they're not solving these problems well is because they can't back out of their a-priori assumptions about either the age of the universe or simply the way it was formed. But that's a whole 'nother story.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by npetreley
You can't do that with evolution. You can't go back in time and look at a dinosaur evolve into a bird. The funny thing about those observations is that they present many unsolved problems, and IMO, one reason they're not solving these problems well is because they can't back out of their a-priori assumptions about either the age of the universe or simply the way it was formed. But that's a whole 'nother story. [/B]

And so you also throw out the creation story and all of human history because we can't go back an look at it?

Is it not a little unfair to allow "scientific creationism" look back and "prove" creation and not let any one else do so?
 
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Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Actually it can be tested as can most history via genetic comparisons, biogeography, fossils (if found in random order would siprove evolution.), and modern observations.

No it cannot. Genetics (with respect to macroevolution) say nothing about how genes got the way they are. You have to look at various genes from various species and then make up a story about how the genetics got that way through ancestry.

For example, you can imagine that a gene got from A to B at one point during our ancestry, and then you turn around and say that the presence of that gene in later ancestors confirms common ancestry -- why, because you have evidence that there is common ancetry? No! Because you have evidence that provides you with a story you can tell about common ancestry. But until you actually start going in there and chopping up the genes in the common ancestor and produce from that common ancestor the later species you are calling related, and then get results in repeated tests confirmed by others, you haven't done any science. All you've done is tell stories about how you think it could have happened.

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Are you saying that it's not possible to test any historical theory? Or that it is unreasonable to speculate on the past given what we observe in the present?

It is not possible to test any historical theory with absolute confidence. You can test some theories with a reasonable degree of confidence because you can reproduce the results here and now to see if you're on the right track.

For example, I recall some group tried to recreate what they thought was the pre-flood environment in order to test their theory that in this environment things would grow bigger, healthier, etc. I never heard the results of that test, but I'd guess it was a flop. We know just too darned little about the pre-flood environment of the earth to try to accurately reproduce it. But at least they tried the right way to treat this scientifically. They didn't just read the Bible and say it must have happened this way or that. They tried to reproduce the results, themselves.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by npetreley
Of course not. In this case, I have the living testimony of a trustworthy eyewitness to the events.

No, all you have is a mans interpretation of the Bible, an interpretation that has often failed in gaining any evidence for any of the grander stories in the Bible.
 
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Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
No, all you have is a mans interpretation of the Bible, an interpretation that has often failed in gaining any evidence for any of the grander stories in the Bible.

No, I have the living testimony of a trustworthy eyewitness to the events. Would you like to meet Him? He's right here in me, but it would be better if you meet Him by reading the Bible, or by talking to Him.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by npetreley
No, I have the living testimony of a trustworthy eyewitness to the events. Would you like to meet Him? He's right here in me, but it would be better if you meet Him by reading the Bible, or by talking to Him.

Again, you forget that I am not an atheist but a Christian. I have read the bible many times, probably atleast 3 or 4 times cover to cover alone. I have accepted Jesus as Lord many years ago.

You seem to believe that anyone who does not share your creationistic veiw are not Christians. I have never accused you of not being a Christian because your beliefs differ in areas from mine, why do you judge me as not being a Christian because my beliefs are slightly different from yours on this matter?
 
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Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
Again, you forget that I am not an atheist but a Christian. I have read the bible many times, probably atleast 3 or 4 times cover to cover alone. I have accepted Jesus as Lord many years ago.

I wasn't saying you're not a Christian because your views are different, I simply forgot you said you were a Christian. But if you're a Christian, why don't you trust what Christ said? Perhaps you spriritualized away his plain words, but I take them on face value, myself.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by npetreley
I wasn't saying you're not a Christian because your views are different, I simply forgot you said you were a Christian. But if you're a Christian, why don't you trust what Christ said? Perhaps you spriritualized away his plain words, but I take them on face value, myself.

 

Well, perhaps you could show me where Christ said anything about a six day creation or special creation for that matter or anything about a young eath.

I can't seem to find Christ saying anything about those things...

 
 
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Originally posted by npetreley
Of course not. In this case, I have the living testimony of a trustworthy eyewitness to the events.

Moses wrote Genesis and the Old Testament, according to Christian doctrine. Of course he was said to have been inspired of God... but that's a different debate.

Modern Bible scholarship attributes the authorship of Genesis to actually two unknown authors, J and P (due to the repetition of events and linguistic analysis) Deuteronomy was written by someone else entirely...

but that's all heresy, as far as you're concerned.
 
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np:
It is not possible to test any historical theory with absolute confidence. You can test some theories with a reasonable degree of confidence because you can reproduce the results here and now to see if you're on the right track.

So guess the idea that Rome existed is metaphysics right? Cause we can't recreate Rome. And we can't be absolutely certain Rome existed.

No it cannot. Genetics (with respect to macroevolution) say nothing about how genes got the way they are. You have to look at various genes from various species and then make up a story about how the genetics got that way through ancestry.

No, they propose a theory to explain why some species are more similiar to genes then others. That's like saying if one studies american culture and deduces americans migrated from england cause they speak english and you know that england has been around longer then the US, that this is just a "story". Because all we can know is that "americans are here".

No, when astronomy looks back, it is subject to many of the same failings as evolution. So there is a difference. It's like the split between biology and evolutionary biology. One is science, and the other is metaphysics. You can't make them the same thing by calling then both the same thing, such as "biology" and "astronomy".

What basis is there for such a distinction? You give none.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm skeptical about many of the conclusions scientists have come to about the past in the universe when these conclusions are based on observation. And many of those conclusions have turned out to be false simply because we CANNOT test them in the same ways we test other things in science.

Saying one cannot test something in the same way is very different from saying that something cannot be tested at all.

But astronomers do have one advantage over the evolutionists. They can see things in the past AS THEY ARE HAPPENING. So it's almost as if they are there in the past, watching it happen.

They can? That's news to me, so far I've never heard of them seeing the complete rotation of the solar system, the formation of new galaxies, the birth if stars, the traveling of light (as we cannot see individual light waves), other planets (they tell if theirs another planet via observing a stars movement), a black hole, or the milky way.

Also can these things be reproduced in a lab?

Also evolutionary scientists can see organisms evolved, just not organisms evolve in a way that would involve millions of years even if evolution were true. They use fossils to test that. I know you say "well that's micro not macro evolution" but the distinction is arbitrary(why couldn't micro changes build up to become "macro" changes?). They generalize and emmploy deduction, just like they do when they state that all humans are made of atoms. They haven't found atoms directly in every human or in humans of the past, but its a pretty safe bet they were made of atoms.


What you seem to be trying to do np is reduce science to positivism. With all the failings of positvism. Given that sort of framework concepts like gravity,quarcks,black holes, rome, the dodo bird and the universe would have to go because we couldn't directly see such things.

Likewise even simple things like houses would well, as would continents.
Can you see a house? No you see only a collection of shapes with colors, "the idea of a house is based on a priori commitment". You say TPs are houses as are mansions but they really have nothing in common, where is the house? And no, its not just something people live in, some people live in jail, is the jail therefore a house? Some people live in cars, is a car therefore a house? What is exactly a house, describe using pure observation. Or is the idea of a house just metaphysics?

As would universities, where is the university? One cannot see a university, one can see certain buildings, one can see ground, one can see a map that you claim represents the university, but where is the university?
 
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Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
So guess the idea that Rome existed is metaphysics right? Cause we can't recreate Rome. And we can't be absolutely certain Rome existed.

What is this, a contest to see who can come up with the most absurd straw man?

A useful analogy would be to say that we cannot be certain how Rome was built (except that we can be sure it probably wasn't built in a day).

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
No, they propose a theory to explain why some species are more similiar to genes then others. That's like saying if one studies american culture and deduces americans migrated from england cause they speak english and you know that england has been around longer then the US, that this is just a "story". Because all we can know is that "americans are here".

Another bogus straw man. And why would anyone speculate about where americans came from? We have a reliable history that tells us where we came from.

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
They can? That's news to me, so far I've never heard of them seeing the complete rotation of the solar system, the formation of new galaxies, the birth if stars, the traveling of light (as we cannot see individual light waves), other planets (they tell if theirs another planet via observing a stars movement), a black hole, or the milky way.

We can see other planets. We can examine and measure light travel in the lab. As for the rest, it's still speculation. We could be wrong. We've been wrong about such things before. That's the problem with speculation on things you cannot test here and now.

Fortunately, we can see things here and now that look like the formation of stars and rotation of galaxies, so we at least have something we can observe that we think are forming stars and rotating galaxies. They may not be forming stars or rotating galaxies, but we can at least see these examples now, which makes speculation a little more realistic. We never observed macroevolution from any distance, so we can't even say it occurred let alone guess how it happened.

Also evolutionary scientists can see organisms evolved, just not organisms evolve in a way that would involve millions of years even if evolution were true.[/B][/QUOTE]

Evolutionary scientists can observe adaptation. You can also build a car that automatically adapts to external climates by adjusting the heat or air conditioning inside the car. That doesn't imply that the car will develop wings and fly when the terrain gets too bumpy. Yet scientists have fantasized that because organisms have been designed to adapt to various stresses, they would also develop new features if you simply applied the right stresses and mutations. What they still can't
seem to get through their thick craniums is that the reason this kind of evolution has never been observed is because it doesn't occur. Speculating that it COULD occur given lots of other unproven
assumptions is just plain fantasy.

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
They use fossils to test that.

And the fossils don't confirm their fantasy stories, so they simply make up new fantasy stories like punk eek. You'd think they'd have figured out by now that the fossils don't confirm their fantasy stories because their fantasy stories are only fantasy and not reality.

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
I know you say "well that's micro not macro evolution" but the distinction is
arbitrary (why couldn't micro changes build up to become "macro" changes?). They generalize and emmploy deduction, just like they do when they state that all humans are made of atoms. They haven't found atoms directly in every human or in humans of the past, but its a pretty safe bet they were made of atoms.

You can test your theory of atoms here and now even if you can't see them.
 
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Np:
What is this, a contest to see who can come up with the most absurd straw man?

A useful analogy would be to say that we cannot be certain how Rome was built (except that we can be sure it probably wasn't built in a day).

Well if it can't be reproduced then that's not really science then.
;)


Another bogus straw man. And why would anyone speculate about where americans came from? We have a reliable history that tells us where we came from.

Can this history be reproduced in a lab? How come I can't see it? Show me using pure observation this history.

If you can't it must be a matter of metaphysics, and a belief that the US came from aliens living on Venus is just as scientific as the idea that US colonists came from England.


We can see other planets.

Only in our solar system. Not in others, that's just metaphysics. ;)


We can examine and measure light travel in the lab

But can we actually see the light waves themselves directly? If not then that speculation about the results of the experiment are just that, empty vacuous speculation, and the idea of light waves is no better or worse then that of : ghosts causing the results. :eek:

Fortunately, we can see things here and now that look like the formation of stars and rotation of galaxies, so we at least have something we can observe that we think are forming stars and rotating galaxies. They may not be forming stars or rotating galaxies, but we can at least see these examples now, which makes speculation a little more realistic. We never observed macroevolution from any distance, so we can't even say it occurred let alone guess how it happened.

But we never observed macro-changes in these galaxies, meaning all that speculation is just metaphysics.



Evolutionary scientists can observe adaptation. You can also build a car that automatically adapts to external climates by adjusting the heat or air conditioning inside the car. That doesn't imply that the car will develop wings and fly when the terrain gets too bumpy.

What a vacuous analogy. Comparing a organism, who's creation is under questin, to something designed as evidence for its design, is circular reasoning. We see people build cars, nobody has ever seen anything build an organism. Organisms are biological and can reproduce, cars aren't and can't.


That doesn't imply that the car will develop wings and fly when the terrain gets too bumpy.

That shows a huge misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Evoltionists do not believe an organism can go from no wings, to having wings within its lifetime. Evolutionists say that over millions of years, a population of organisms may be able to attain flight due to accumulated variations among offspring. There is a big difference.

Yet scientists have fantasized that because organisms have been designed to adapt to various stresses, they would also develop new features if you simply applied the right stresses and mutations.

Buzz, wrong answer. No scientist has ever said because one organism has adapted to some enviromental stress it showed how organisms could evolve Darwinian style. They said a group of organisms will change if slowly introduced to stress over generations. Something that has been observed with moths, dogs, finches, bacteria.

What they still can't
seem to get through their thick craniums is that the reason this kind of evolution has never been observed is because it doesn't occur.

Well seeing as they never even made the claim you are talking about, I'd stop looking at their craniums and start looking at my ears if I was you. Scientists know that saltation doesn't occur in an organisms lifetime. Do you realize that sort of observation would actually refute Darwinism?

And the fossils don't confirm their fantasy stories, so they simply make up new fantasy stories like punk eek. You'd think they'd have figured out by now that the fossils don't confirm their fantasy stories because their fantasy stories are only fantasy and not reality.

Oh really? Well seeing as they haven't found anything disconfirming, only confiriming I'd beg to differ. They haven't found anything for example like a 70 million year old man, even given their dating techniques which have, been fairly consistent. Fossils are not arranged randonmly but in the order one would expect if Darwinism were true. No "freaky" half bird/insect creatures have been found, a sort of animal that could be created but could not have evolved.
Certain animals that are obviously related have been found more or less in a sequence, of course there are "gaps" cause scientists don't get every single fossil, but given what they have seen, an evolutionary explanation is the least superfluous and thus confirmned.


You can test your theory of atoms here and now even if you can't see them.

I can't. I'd have to go to a lab.

But in any case you seem to be using equovocation. Historical evidence doesn't mean that scientists have their evidence in the past, it means they use relics from the past as evidence. Their evidence is just as "present" as that for atoms. If you can ignore one theory, then you can ignore the other. The same line of reasoning, confirming or disconfirming a theory via evidence applies to both.
 
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Morat

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Can you please stop the personal attaks on those that don't believe as you do.

  What personal attacks? Feel free to point them out.

  Unless you're using 'personal attacks' as a way of saying 'disagrees with someone', then you're SOL.

  Oh, and thinking someone's opinion is stupid is not a personal attack. Thinking a person is stupid is.

   But go right ahead. Quote me some examples! I'm all set.

 
 
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