Methodist Denomination (UMC) and and elective abortion of gestation.

[redleghunter]

It is in your OWN prior post HERE although I do not follow links to forums.

Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.




If a doctor or other strives even with a willing female and causes the child to be aborted then blah... blah.... blah.... see above yourself.

Biblegateway.com allows you to look and choose different translations and will soon allow them to be done all at once, if they do not already. See.

You completely ignored the exegesis of Exodus 21:22ff. I'll post it below. The passage has nothing to do with still born babies or abortion. The words in Hebrew are clear and distinct.

The scholars who used miscarriage or still birth are clearly in error. They form a very small minority and have engaged in eisegesis, the method of interpreting scriptures with a bias.

In order to determine the exact meaning of a word in the Bible you need a literal word for word translation and look back at the Hebrew for Exodus 21. Those trying to use miscarriage or still born are likely using a dynamic equivalent or paraphrase translation and not a literal word for word translation.


The majority of scholars who ascribe to the Hebrew and Greek lexicon.

Here is the passage in question.

Exodus 21: King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Now another word for word literal translation from a modern English version.

Exodus 21: NASB


"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21:22-25 NASB
http://bible.com/100/exo.21.22-25.NASB


Now we take a look at the Hebrew lexicon.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So that her fruit:

Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled

he KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young ones (3x), sons (3x), boy (2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).


child, son, boy, offspring, youth

1. child, son, boy
   
   
2. child, children
   
   
3. descendants
   
   
4. youth

Yeled is not not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child.

Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.

Exodus 23: KJV


26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
שָׁכֹל shakol


The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave (10x),barren (2x), childless (2x), cast young (2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children (1x),rob of children (1x), deprived (1x), misc (5x).


שָׁכֹלshâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.


So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

. . . . Thank you so much Sir. Thank you for such a good witness and help with literal translation research. The reason this is not used by pro-abortion candidates is very clear.
.
. . . . The Bible states clearly if a living human Fetus is killed because of a fight, even accidentally, punishment for this mistake must fit the results of the accident, as if it were a crime.
.
. . . . This clearly means in the second and third trimester when a human Fetus is alive and has a heartbeat like Arkansas Act 301 never got to protect.
.
. . . . AR Act 301 passed over a Governor's veto before being thrown out by a Federal Court in Jonesboro (EDAR).
.
. . . . The Bible clearly supports Arkansas Act 301. EDAR Court and the Eighth Circuit both asked SCOTUS to re-examine artificial abortion of gestation regulation(s).
.
. . . . My amicus curia brief, amicus reply brief, and petition for cert were greatly considered by U.S. Courts and abortionist lawyers. Allowing an amicus reply brief is exceedingly rare. The most radical pro-life AR citizens passed a new anti-abortion Act rather than let the U.S. Courts work. This mistake of exhibiting poor electoral tenor is why Act 301 is NOT law - YET.
.
. . . . I filed an update attempting to mitigate this error and filed this update shortly after Act 577 was found invalid. AR Act 577 is the reason AR Act 301 has not replaced Roe v Wade as the honorable law of every U.S. State very quickly.
.
. . . . I should have cited this Scripture as an authority because it elevated secondary liability to the level of a crime like Arkansas Act 301. AR Act 301 was far, far more lenient. The only punishment was going to be loss of medical license.
.
. . . . This Old law applied to anyone who might accidentally kill a Fetus or was this only during a fight? Teaching Protestant Christians and Catholics, this law is the proper law Christ will allow to end the profitability of artificial abortion of gestation very quickly, is one main mission left for my life.

 

[redleghunter]

. . . . Thank you so much Sir. Thank you for such a good witness and help with literal translation research. The reason this is not used by pro-abortion candidates is very clear.
. . . . The Bible states clearly if a living human Fetus is killed because of a fight, even accidentally, punishment for this mistake must fit the results of the accident, as if it were a crime.
. . . . This clearly means in the second and third trimester when a human Fetus is alive and has a heartbeat like Arkansas Act 301 never got to protect.
. . . . AR Act 301 passed over a Governor's veto before being thrown out by a Federal Court in Jonesboro (EDAR).
. . . . The Bible clearly supports Arkansas Act 301. EDAR Court and the Eighth Circuit both asked SCOTUS to re-examine artificial abortion of gestation regulation(s).
. . . . My amicus curia brief, amicus reply brief, and petition for cert were greatly considered by U.S. Courts and abortionist lawyers. Allowing an amicus reply brief is exceedingly rare. The most radical pro-life AR citizens passed a new anti-abortion Act rather than let the U.S. Courts work. This mistake of exhibiting poor electoral tenor is why Act 301 is NOT law - YET.
. . . . I filed an update attempting to mitigate this error and filed this update shortly after Act 577 was found invalid. AR Act 577 is the reason AR Act 301 has not replaced Roe v Wade as the honorable law of every U.S. State very quickly.
. . . . I should have cited this Scripture as an authority because it elevated secondary liability to the level of a crime like Arkansas Act 301. AR Act 301 was far, far more lenient. The only punishment was going to be loss of medical license.
. . . . This Old law applied to anyone who might accidentally kill a Fetus or was this only during a fight?
. . . . Teaching Protestant Christians and Catholics, this law is the proper law Christ will allow to end the profitability of artificial abortion of gestation very quickly, is one main mission left for my life.

Is the above your comments or a mix of quotes from other sources. Hard to follow I must say.

I would like to revisit why you see 11 weeks as moral to abort human life.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I am still trying to decipher what Arkansas has to do with the Bible.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Is the above your comments or a mix of quotes from other sources. Hard to follow I must say.
I would like to revisit why you see 11 weeks as moral to abort human life.

. . . . Sorry, Those are all from me. I do not like the inability to double-space paragraphs and indent. I think I have now adjusted the post to be easier to follow. Using white periods to position text. Otherwise, I think leading spaces and empty lines are automatically removed.
. . . . I do NOT believe EVERY elective abortion of gestation is moral if done before 11-weeks. I believe killing a group of cell(s), zygote, blastocyst, or an embryo is not killing a human life after God has begun this new life.

Zygote; Blastocyst; Embryo; Fetus

. . . . Science has recently learned the placenta is developed from the father's genes. See Cornell news. Chapter 17 or "Formation and Role of the Placenta" by Joan W. Witkin PhD. from 2004 is still a great learning tool for the early development of the human but preceded realization of the placenta depending on the father's genes.

. . . . The corpus luteum is part of the female's body and develops monthly. Early in formation of an embryo, growth is fueled exclusively by the mother's egg. The two (mother and father) are not yet one. This fact has a clear Bible reference. When God's word says, "and the two shall become one", this tells of the placenta replacing the corpus luteum as the source of food for the implanted embryo and the new source of progesterone to prevent miscarriage.

. . . . There was absolutely no reference to marriage in Genesis 2:24. This is almost universally inferred into this scripture. These hard scientific facts were beyond human science till this decade. It is impossible to tell precisely when the Embryo is sustained wholly by the placenta but this is generally from 9-weeks to 13-weeks. Europe generally protects the human Fetus at 12-weeks or before, and frivolous, artificial abortions of gestation are not such a moral concern there.

. . . . Elective abortion of gestation is almost always immoral but is a God-granted inalienable human right. Arkansas voters compromised and made abortions of gestation illegal after 77 days.

I am still trying to decipher what Arkansas has to do with the Bible.

? Ha. Me too.

 

[redleghunter]

. . . . Sorry, Those are all from me. I do not like the inability to double-space paragraphs and indent. I think I have now adjusted the post to be easier to follow. Using white periods to position text. Otherwise, I think leading spaces and empty lines are automatically removed.
. . . . I do NOT believe EVERY elective abortion of gestation is moral if done before 11-weeks. I believe killing a group of cell(s), zygote, blastocyst, or an embryo is not killing a human life after God has begun this new life.

Zygote; Blastocyst; Embryo; Fetus

. . . . Science has recently learned the placenta is developed from the father's genes. See Cornell news. Chapter 17 or "Formation and Role of the Placenta" by Joan W. Witkin PhD. from 2004 is still a great learning tool for the early development of the human but preceded realization of the placenta depending on the father's genes.

. . . . The corpus luteum is part of the female's body and develops monthly. Early in formation of an embryo, growth is fueled exclusively by the mother's egg. The two (mother and father) are not yet one. This fact has a clear Bible reference. When God's word says, "and the two shall become one", this tells of the placenta replacing the corpus luteum as the source of food for the implanted embryo and the new source of progesterone to prevent miscarriage.

. . . . There was absolutely no reference to marriage in Genesis 2:24. This is almost universally inferred into this scripture. These hard scientific facts were beyond human science till this decade. It is impossible to tell precisely when the Embryo is sustained wholly by the placenta but this is generally from 9-weeks to 13-weeks. Europe generally protects the human Fetus at 12-weeks or before, and frivolous, artificial abortions of gestation are not such a moral concern there.

. . . . Elective abortion of gestation is almost always immoral but is a God-granted inalienable human right. Arkansas voters compromised and made abortions of gestation illegal after 77 days.

? Ha. Me too.

Thank you for your explanation. I do see a mixture of science mixed in with Biblical passages and some secular laws. I must consider this your eisegesis of justifying abortion before 11 weeks. Even then you make stipulations where it is not moral to do so before 11 weeks. Honestly, and I don't say this being unloving, this is rationalizing killing an innocent human life in gestation. This allows us to rationalize other situations as well with deformed or mentally challenged born children not to mention the elderly and adult physically handicapped. I guess I was looking for what absolute you hang your beliefs on. You provided some insightful science and some current or proposed laws, but none of which is supported by Holy Scriptures. Nor is supported by early church theologians, catechism or canon. The Scriptures you do use, you apply as mentioned above, eisegesis and not exegesis. Meaning you take some modern conveyances and find some Scripture that remotely may support it out of context.

That is why I mentioned a few times, that if you say X and I say Y, what is the transcendent standard in which we can test truth claims? Holy Scriptures. We can both quote the OT all day long (and we have), however, what authorities did Christ leave His apostles and disciples? Let's start there.

He did not give them or us authorities to establish a theocracy.

He did not give them or us the authority to execute criminals. That was left to the civil authorities (Romans 13).

He did not give them or us license to break the commandment to kill human life at any stage. Especially innocent human life. Christ found every life, even the people who hated Him and crucified Him precious. He forgave them.

Your approach is VERY legal and I give that point to you. However, what law trumps the Law of Love He left us with. Is not gestating human life our neighbor too?

I find a lot of Christian posters who advocate or allow for abortion at any stage using legalities don't see the main point of our road of sanctification in Christ Jesus. We are to examine our lives as Christians each moment and ask the question "is what I am doing glorifying Jesus Christ as the Father wants Him glorified." Do our actions measure up? Yes we fail almost daily by omission and in some grievous cases act impulsively and sin. However, abortion, the ending of human life at any stage is a premeditated decision (save life of the woman in serious medical conditions). The old and the new testaments define this as murder. The premeditated killing of human life at any stage is not glorifying Jesus Christ.

Now this is usually the point I get comments as in "what about adultery?, what about fornication? Drunks? etc. None of the above is glorifying Jesus Christ and is sinful.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Thank you for your explanation. I do see a mixture of science mixed in with Biblical passages and some secular laws. I must consider this your eisegesis of justifying abortion before 11 weeks. Even then you make stipulations where it is not moral to do so before 11 weeks. Honestly, and I don't say this being unloving, this is rationalizing killing an innocent human life in gestation. This allows us to rationalize other situations as well with deformed or mentally challenged born children not to mention the elderly and adult physically handicapped. I guess I was looking for what absolute you hang your beliefs on. You provided some insightful science and some current or proposed laws, but none of which is supported by Holy Scriptures. Nor is supported by early church theologians, catechism or canon. The Scriptures you do use, you apply as mentioned above, eisegesis and not exegesis. Meaning you take some modern conveyances and find some Scripture that remotely may support it out of context.

That is why I mentioned a few times, that if you say X and I say Y, what is the transcendent standard in which we can test truth claims? Holy Scriptures. We can both quote the OT all day long (and we have), however, what authorities did Christ leave His apostles and disciples? Let's start there.

He did not give them or us authorities to establish a theocracy.

He did not give them or us the authority to execute criminals. That was left to the civil authorities (Romans 13).

He did not give them or us license to break the commandment to kill human life at any stage. Especially innocent human life. Christ found every life, even the people who hated Him and crucified Him precious. He forgave them.

Your approach is VERY legal and I give that point to you. However, what law trumps the Law of Love He left us with. Is not gestating human life our neighbor too?

I find a lot of Christian posters who advocate or allow for abortion at any stage using legalities don't see the main point of our road of sanctification in Christ Jesus. We are to examine our lives as Christians each moment and ask the question "is what I am doing glorifying Jesus Christ as the Father wants Him glorified." Do our actions measure up? Yes we fail almost daily by omission and in some grievous cases act impulsively and sin. However, abortion, the ending of human life at any stage is a premeditated decision (save life of the woman in serious medical conditions). The old and the new testaments define this as murder. The premeditated killing of human life at any stage is not glorifying Jesus Christ.

Now this is usually the point I get comments as in "what about adultery?, what about fornication? Drunks? etc. None of the above is glorifying Jesus Christ and is sinful.

Genesis 2:24 http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-24.htm

. . . . The above tells literally two human bodies will join and become one human body. This is clearly exogesis and not eisegesis. I believe if you research the Scripture the Hebrew consistently states two bodies will become one body. Your skill set with literal Hebrew translations could help us see Genesis 2:24 say one physical human body will be produced from two physical bodies.

. . . . I do NOT believe ANYONE should ever abort and would argue this is almost always immoral, if not always. However; ALL females should have the inalienable human right to cease gestation until the 78th day after conception because it was granted by God. To restrict this inalienable human right requires allowing theocracy to control human law(s) like Catholics interpret as just following Romans 13:9.

. . . . After the placenta begins producing the testosterone to sustain gestation, a new complete body or new human life has first begun and this new life is our neighbor. This is the first time the killing is anything more than removal of uterine cysts caused by spermatozoa infections.

. . . . I am now struggling with accepting John 20:22,23 as granting the Church authority to forgive sin or not forgive sin. It appears to clearly say exactly this. I do not wish to convert to Catholic faith but see it as perhaps the best Scriptural option.

. . . . I believe within the complete context of speaking to fearful, hidden disciples who will be murdered, this Scripture can be considered relevant to ONLY disciples in the early church or because when Jesus said this the message of Jesus' gift had never been spread and was considered heresy to Jews and mystical to everyone else.

. . . . Forgiving any particular sin or group of sins, after all, does not lead to eternal life. Repenting for ALL your sin does not lead to eternal life. Faith in Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to eternal life.

. . . . The NT clearly supports Arkansas' Act 301 12-week limit for abortion of gestation. Souls being created at conception is extra-biblical or is eisegesis even when done by the Pope in my opinion. Perhaps I need to try and speak to the Pope and show him "miracles"?

 

[CurtisNeeley]

MFSA, Steve, Professor Matthews;

. . . . I realize that you some of you are most concerned with allowing full participation of LGBT members and staff. The Bible clearly supports marriage for short unmarried church members and tall unmarried church members as well as Widows or monogamy for all sexually active people.

. . . . Elective abortions of gestation, after12-weeks, is killing another human Fetus. Most of the Earth has realized this already by operation of the Holy Spirit. The 20-week ban was for elective abortions only and was not for abortions done later when necessary. The 20-week ban is NOT a smokescreen like the MFSA website states, counter to Christ, the Bible and the UMC 2016 General Conference vote.

. . . . The AR Act 301 12-week ban was more honorable and is biblical for elective abortions per Genesis 2:24 and Mark 10:8,9. The early abortion of gestation does not kill a new Fetus but stops the female body from reacting to spermatozoa infection(s). Prior to around 12-weeks, the two are not yet one and this occurs first when the placenta feeds the embryo and a Fetus is formed with progesterone produced by the placenta rather than the corpus luteum. Discovering the genes from the father control creation of the placenta was recently discovered. (See Cornell Chronicle 08-2013)

. . . . RCRC.org membership is counter to the UMC social position because the group supports elective abortion ANYTIME and ANYHOW and this is wildly against UMC position and is not true to Biblical plumb lines regardless of how Methodist "laws" are sometimes dishonorably thrown aside. See Judicial FIAT 1041

. . . . The UMC will soon realize: when Paul wrote the Corinthian Church and recommended celibacy, he declared this improbable. Apostle Paul encouraged those unable to resist sexual desires to marry. This specifically included ALL unmarried members of the Corinthian Church and the widows. The Biblical plumb-line of 1 Corinthians 7:9 specifically calls for monogamy.

. . . . There needs to be clarification on the MFSA website making the independence of the group more clear. Still; even this independent group should cease membership at RCRC.org to honor the sanctity of the 2016 UMC Conference vote which was not even close. (425-for leaving, 268-against leaving, 2-confused) RCRC is not artificial abortion of gestation neutral like the UMC has resolved to be but the group is proudly pro-abortion of gestation.

. . . . Rushing a pregnant mother to the "delivery room" from 12-weeks to nine months but marginally before natural labor begins in order to rip apart and sell the Fetus instead of delivering a new human should not continue as a legal possibility. There are situations in AR Act 301 where this would still be allowed.

. . . . The denial of a homosexual choir member's request to join the Methodist Church was exceedingly wrong and denial of the Petition to Reconsider this mistake was fatal to the honorability of the UMC denomination for me. At least some tried.

. . . . I will seek to be removed from my former Church membership rather than seeking to join a local Methodist Church and transfer my UMC membership to another dying UMC Church.

--

 

[redleghunter]

The above tells literally two human bodies will join and become one human body. This is clearly exogesis and not eisegesis. I believe if you research the Scripture the Hebrew consistently states two bodies will become one body. Your skill set with literal Hebrew translations could help us see Genesis 2:24 say one physical human body will be produced from two physical bodies.

Ok we can explore this a bit but tomorrow. Tied up in another project and need to hit the Hebrew both mechanical translation and lexicon. I will also try to access the paleo Hebrew for chapter 2 of Genesis. That will be in pictographs.

A bit of advice. Some of your posts seem to promote homosexual unions and abortion. That will get the thread shut down in a hurry.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Ok we can explore this a bit but tomorrow. Tied up in another project and need to hit the Hebrew both mechanical translation and lexicon. I will also try to access the paleo Hebrew for chapter 2 of Genesis. That will be in pictographs.

A bit of advice. Some of your posts seem to promote homosexual unions and abortion. That will get the thread shut down in a hurry.

Thanks for the advice. I think I fixed that.