Methodist Denomination (UMC) and and elective abortion of gestation.

[CurtisNeeley]

Cease and desist:
The United Methodist Board of Church and Society and United Methodist Women wrote an open letter to Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) on June 7, 2016 withdrawing from membership because of the General Conference vote.


General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, in Oregon and Idaho, however wrote:

• "We affirm the right of men and women to have access to comprehensive reproductive health/family planning information and services that will serve as a means to prevent unplanned pregnancies, reduce abortions, and prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS." -Source.
  
  
• “We in Oregon-Idaho stand with women in recognizing reproductive choices should be between a person and their doctor. We want to clearly say that we disagree with removal of the denominational membership and offer our public support instead,” -Source

Listed coalition council as of 06-30-2016: http://rcrc.org/homepage/about/coalition-council/

• "General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church" allegation should be as follows:
• General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church of Oregon and Idaho
  
• "United Methodist Women" -- FRAUD is not true and should be changed to as follows:
• United Methodist Women of Oregon and Idaho
  
• "Methodist Federation for Social Action" is a FRAUD as listed but should be changed to as follows:
• Methodist Federation for Social Action in Oregon and Idaho

As written on the website today, the statement is fraudulent and is both slander and libel creating a District Court liability for RCRC if pursued by a distressed Methodist Church member. Consider this to be a "cease and desist" letter.
Please cease creating the implication the UMC retains any continued denominational-level association because this is untrue and causes members of the UMC to believe the Methodist denomination (UMC) agrees with killing a human fetus beyond the formation of an independent circulation system. A loss of donations and membership(s) as a result of this fraud must cease and not be restarted.
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-nurturing-community#abortion
Abortion
The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion.

But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child.

We recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures by certified medical providers. We support parental, guardian, or other responsible adult notification and consent before abortions can be performed on girls who have not yet reached the age of legal adulthood. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection or eugenics (see Resolution 3184).

We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. This procedure shall be performed only by certified medical providers. Before providing their services, abortion providers should be required to offer women the option of anesthesia.

We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may cause them to consider abortion. We entrust God to provide guidance, wisdom, and discernment to those facing an unintended pregnancy.

The Church shall offer ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth.

We mourn and are committed to promoting the [diminishing] of high abortion rates. The Church shall encourage ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies such as comprehensive, age-appropriate sexuality education, advocacy in regard to contraception, and support of initiatives that enhance the quality of life for all women and girls around the globe.

Young adult women disproportionately face situations in which they feel that they have no choice due to financial, educational, relational, or other circumstances beyond their control. The Church and its local congregations and campus ministries should be in the forefront of supporting existing ministries and developing new ministries that help such women in their communities. They should also support those crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women explore all options related to unplanned pregnancy. We particularly encourage the Church, the government, and social service agencies to support and facilitate the option of adoption. (See ¶ 161L.) We affirm and encourage the Church to assist the ministry of crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women find feasible alternatives to abortion.

Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, family, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.

=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================
=====================================================

 

[redleghunter]

Your church officially cut ties. If so good news.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Ms Vickery, Irene DeMaris; Warren Gill;


Cease and desist:

The United Methodist Board of Church and Society and United Methodist Women wrote an open letter to RCRC on June 7 withdrawing from membership because of the General Conference vote.


General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, in Oregon and Idaho, however wrote:
===============================================================================

• “We in Oregon-Idaho stand with women in recognizing reproductive choices should be between a person and their doctor. We want to clearly say that we disagree with removal of the denominational membership and offer our public support instead,” -Source Supporting Information for Action Request 09 p4 line 09

===============================================================================

Thank you for removing the "United Methodist Women" listing.

===============================================================================

The second FRAUD is still listed in coalition with RCRC improperly on 07-15-2016. Continuing to publish this falsehood creates an action for defamation and for libel for causing a drop in donations during summer 2016. Donation generally decrease in the summer with the added cost of vacations etc. but a portion of the drop in contribution can certainly be attributed to implying "Methodist Federation for Social Action" or some part of the United Methodist Church seeks to treat abortion as a natural, fundamental, female, human right after 12-weeks and development of the human Fetus.

• "Methodist Federation for Social Action" is incorrect and should be changed to as follows:
  
  
• Oregon-Idaho Conference Methodist Federation for Social Action

As on the RCRC website today, the statement is fraudulent and slander, defamation, and libel creating a Federal District Court liability for RCRC if pursued by distressed Methodist Church members due to a diversity of jurisdiction. Consider this to be a second "cease and desist" letter.

Please cease creating the implication the UMC retains any continued denominational-level association on any lever because this is untrue and causes members of the UMC to believe the Methodist denomination (UMC) agrees with killing a human fetus beyond the formation of an independent circulation system and heartbeat at 12-weeks. A loss of donations and membership as a result of this fraud must cease and not be restarted.

The modified HTML can be seen live online as follows.
http://human-dignity-us.org/RCRC/

The RCRC position on abortion is directly against the sacred dignity of a human Fetus.
The UMC position is not and is completely supportive of justice including abortions of gestation for 11-weeks as long as not done for eugenics or gender selection.
=============== UMC abortion position ======================
=============== UMC abortion position ======
============== UMC abortion position =====================
Abortion
The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion.

But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child.

We recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures by certified medical providers. We support parental, guardian, or other responsible adult notification and consent before abortions can be performed on girls who have not yet reached the age of legal adulthood. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection or eugenics (see Resolution 3184).

We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. This procedure shall be performed only by certified medical providers. Before providing their services, abortion providers should be required to offer women the option of anesthesia.

We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may cause them to consider abortion. We entrust God to provide guidance, wisdom, and discernment to those facing an unintended pregnancy.

The Church shall offer ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth.

We mourn and are committed to [seeking to lower] high abortion rates. The Church shall encourage ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies such as comprehensive, age-appropriate sexuality education, advocacy in regard to contraception, and support of initiatives that enhance the quality of life for all women and girls around the globe.

Young adult women disproportionately face situations in which they feel that they have no choice due to financial, educational, relational, or other circumstances beyond their control. The Church and its local congregations and campus ministries should be in the forefront of supporting existing ministries and developing new ministries that help such women in their communities. They should also support those crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women explore all options related to unplanned pregnancy. We particularly encourage the Church, the government, and social service agencies to support and facilitate the option of adoption. (See ¶ 161L.) We affirm and encourage the Church to assist the ministry of crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women find feasible alternatives to abortion.

Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, family, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.

========================== end UMC position =====================================
========================== end UMC position =====================================

Why on Earth have none of you examined each of the following court filings about the Arkansas Act 301 12-week abortion limit? Act 301 was the first statutory recognition a natural, fundamental, human, female right to abort undesired gestation for 11-weeks exists.

http://master-of-photography.us/tra...AR/Appeal/Dkt-Mirror/Amicus_Brief_4154765.pdf

http://master-of-photography.us/tra...kt-Mirror/Replacement-Reply-Brief_4175428.pdf

http://human-dignity-us.org/2016-notice.pdf

http://human-dignity-us.org/Petition-4-Cert.pdf


-
Sincerely,
Curtis Neeley Jr

This is NOT a mailing list but is an updated cease and desist notice resent every few days as long as the fraudulent allegation of any implication of UMC affiliation with RCRC continues at reply to Curtis and advise you wish to be removed from this notice or update the listing or just delete this email regularly.

 

[redleghunter]

Ms Vickery, Irene DeMaris; Warren Gill;


Cease and desist:

The United Methodist Board of Church and Society and United Methodist Women wrote an open letter to RCRC on June 7 withdrawing from membership because of the General Conference vote.


General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church, in Oregon and Idaho, however wrote:
===============================================================================

• “We in Oregon-Idaho stand with women in recognizing reproductive choices should be between a person and their doctor. We want to clearly say that we disagree with removal of the denominational membership and offer our public support instead,” -Source Supporting Information for Action Request 09 p4 line 09

===============================================================================

Thank you for removing the "United Methodist Women" listing.

===============================================================================

The second FRAUD is still listed in coalition with RCRC improperly on 07-15-2016. Continuing to publish this falsehood creates an action for defamation and for libel for causing a drop in donations during summer 2016. Donation generally decrease in the summer with the added cost of vacations etc. but a portion of the drop in contribution can certainly be attributed to implying "Methodist Federation for Social Action" or some part of the United Methodist Church seeks to treat abortion as a natural, fundamental, female, human right after 12-weeks and development of the human Fetus.

• "Methodist Federation for Social Action" is incorrect and should be changed to as follows:
  
  
• Oregon-Idaho Conference Methodist Federation for Social Action

As on the RCRC website today, the statement is fraudulent and slander, defamation, and libel creating a Federal District Court liability for RCRC if pursued by distressed Methodist Church members due to a diversity of jurisdiction. Consider this to be a second "cease and desist" letter.

Please cease creating the implication the UMC retains any continued denominational-level association on any lever because this is untrue and causes members of the UMC to believe the Methodist denomination (UMC) agrees with killing a human fetus beyond the formation of an independent circulation system and heartbeat at 12-weeks. A loss of donations and membership as a result of this fraud must cease and not be restarted.

The modified HTML can be seen live online as follows.
http://human-dignity-us.org/RCRC/

The RCRC position on abortion is directly against the sacred dignity of a human Fetus.
The UMC position is not and is completely supportive of justice including abortions of gestation for 11-weeks as long as not done for eugenics or gender selection.
=============== UMC abortion position ======================
=============== UMC abortion position ======
============== UMC abortion position =====================
Abortion
The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion.

But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child.

We recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures by certified medical providers. We support parental, guardian, or other responsible adult notification and consent before abortions can be performed on girls who have not yet reached the age of legal adulthood. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection or eugenics (see Resolution 3184).

We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. This procedure shall be performed only by certified medical providers. Before providing their services, abortion providers should be required to offer women the option of anesthesia.

We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may cause them to consider abortion. We entrust God to provide guidance, wisdom, and discernment to those facing an unintended pregnancy.

The Church shall offer ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth.

We mourn and are committed to [seeking to lower] high abortion rates. The Church shall encourage ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies such as comprehensive, age-appropriate sexuality education, advocacy in regard to contraception, and support of initiatives that enhance the quality of life for all women and girls around the globe.

Young adult women disproportionately face situations in which they feel that they have no choice due to financial, educational, relational, or other circumstances beyond their control. The Church and its local congregations and campus ministries should be in the forefront of supporting existing ministries and developing new ministries that help such women in their communities. They should also support those crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women explore all options related to unplanned pregnancy. We particularly encourage the Church, the government, and social service agencies to support and facilitate the option of adoption. (See ¶ 161L.) We affirm and encourage the Church to assist the ministry of crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy resource centers that compassionately help women find feasible alternatives to abortion.

Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, family, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.

========================== end UMC position =====================================
========================== end UMC position =====================================

Why on Earth have none of you examined each of the following court filings about the Arkansas Act 301 12-week abortion limit? Act 301 was the first statutory recognition a natural, fundamental, human, female right to abort undesired gestation for 11-weeks exists.

http://master-of-photography.us/tra...AR/Appeal/Dkt-Mirror/Amicus_Brief_4154765.pdf

http://master-of-photography.us/tra...kt-Mirror/Replacement-Reply-Brief_4175428.pdf

http://human-dignity-us.org/2016-notice.pdf

http://human-dignity-us.org/Petition-4-Cert.pdf


-
Sincerely,
Curtis Neeley Jr

This is NOT a mailing list but is an updated cease and desist notice resent every few days as long as the fraudulent allegation of any implication of UMC affiliation with RCRC continues at reply to Curtis and advise you wish to be removed from this notice or update the listing or just delete this email regularly.

Sir this still does not explain why your church views abortion before 11 weeks as moral.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Sir this still does not explain why your church views abortion before 11 weeks as moral.

.. . . Sorry but I did not understand any question. The UMC Church does not always consider abortion moral before 11-weeks, but recognizes times when the difficult choice to abort gestation is proper. God killed very many "innocent" and unborn children in the days of Noah and the time of Lot.
. . . .There are choices that may seem immoral but are proper and the Holy Spirit will make these clear. Jesus addressed these difficult choices coming for humanity when approaching Calvary.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Are you equating God and the UMC as equivalent?

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Are you equating God and the UMC as equivalent?

No, The UMC is one Denomination more closely understanding elective abortion of gestation in these end times than ANY other I have experienced. I have studied John 20:23 now and tried to understand the way the Catholics apply this and am close to rejecting the translation of the Greek as authoritative in these last words of Jesus.

 

[civilwarbuff]

No, The UMC is one Denomination more closely understanding elective abortion of gestation in these end times than ANY other I have experienced. I have studied John 20:23 now and tried to understand the way the Catholics apply this and am close to rejecting the translation of the Greek as authoritative in these last words of Jesus.

So, the UMC knows when life begins then and therefore abortion is ok prior to that?

 

[redleghunter]

.. . . Sorry but I did not understand any question. The UMC Church does not always consider abortion moral before 11-weeks, but recognizes times when the difficult choice to abort gestation is proper. God killed very many "innocent" and unborn children in the days of Noah and the time of Lot.
. . . .There are choices that may seem immoral but are proper and the Holy Spirit will make these clear. Jesus addressed these difficult choices coming for humanity when approaching Calvary.

This is rationalizing based on premises we can make the same decisions God can.

If one says 11 months is ok and one says no it is not, what transcendent standard do we have to test our truth claims.

 

[redleghunter]

No, The UMC is one Denomination more closely understanding elective abortion of gestation in these end times than ANY other I have experienced. I have studied John 20:23 now and tried to understand the way the Catholics apply this and am close to rejecting the translation of the Greek as authoritative in these last words of Jesus.

You say things without providing evidence. Please show me the Scripture with exegesis on your views. So far I've seen eisegesis.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So far I've seen eisegesis.

And that is probably all you are going to see.....

 

[CurtisNeeley]

So, the UMC knows when life begins then and therefore abortion is ok prior to that?

. . . . It is not possible to pin down the exact week or day. It is, however, possible to know if a life has begun by testing for a four-chamber heartbeat and complete placenta.

This is rationalizing based on premises we can make the same decisions God can.
If one says 11 months is ok and one says no it is not, what transcendent standard do we have to test our truth claims.

. . . . Humans should be able to make the same decision God would make when faced with adequate evidence and seeking assistance of the Holy Spirit. A four-chamber heart develops from (9-13)-weeks and this is the latest time an embryo may be removed and not be killed if frozen for later implantation. Very many Fetal human lives have begun at 11-weeks but many have not yet begun. This time limit acknowledges God is the Creator and the beginning of life is an indeterminate time between (9-13)-weeks, which only the Creator knows.

You say things without providing evidence. Please show me the Scripture with exegesis on your views. So far I've seen eisegesis.

. . . . There is a great deal of knowledge about when Fetal life begins. There will never be an exact knowledge of when. The Creator will not allow this.
. . . . There is no relevant Scripture except Luke 23:29 telling of a coming time when barren women and women without children will be called "blessed". If a modern female realizes, Matthew 7:13, "broad is the door that leads to destruction", and this female is unable to afford raising another child and is surrounded with bad influences, this child would best not live to become a fully unrepentant sinner.
. . . . I am sorry you feel as if I twist my beliefs into scriptures. I know the beginning of life is an indeterminate time between (9-13)-weeks, which only the Creator knows. I(we) know this not because of Scripture but because of science. Souls can NEVER be frozen and be implanted later. A freezer full of embryos is not a freezer full of souls. No frozen Fetus has ever been used to create life because a frozen Fetus is DEAD.
====================================
I appreciate the questions and welcome these. I will answer politely if able.

 

[redleghunter]

. . . . It is not possible to pin down the exact week or day. It is, however, possible to know if a life has begun by testing for a four-chamber heartbeat and complete placenta.


. . . . Humans should be able to make the same decision God would make when faced with adequate evidence and seeking assistance of the Holy Spirit. A four-chamber heart develops from (9-13)-weeks and this is the latest time an embryo may be removed and not be killed if frozen for later implantation. Very many Fetal human lives have begun at 11-weeks but many have not yet begun. This time limit acknowledges God is the Creator and the beginning of life is an indeterminate time between (9-13)-weeks, which only the Creator knows.


. . . . There is a great deal of knowledge about when Fetal life begins. There will never be an exact knowledge of when. The Creator will not allow this.
. . . . There is no relevant Scripture except Luke 23:29 telling of a coming time when barren women and women without children will be called "blessed". If a modern female realizes, Matthew 7:13, "broad is the door that leads to destruction", and this female is unable to afford raising another child and is surrounded with bad influences, this child would best not live to become a fully unrepentant sinner.
. . . . I am sorry you feel as if I twist my beliefs into scriptures. I know the beginning of life is an indeterminate time between (9-13)-weeks, which only the Creator knows. I(we) know this not because of Scripture but because of science. Souls can NEVER be frozen and be implanted later. A freezer full of embryos is not a freezer full of souls. No frozen Fetus has ever been used to create life because a frozen Fetus is DEAD.
====================================
I appreciate the questions and welcome these. I will answer politely if able.

We do know when human life begins. Scientific evidence is at conception. There's no debate among embryologists. Nor is there any confusion in Scriptures when human life begins. The biblical evidence is life begins with the "begetting " which is the only function in procreation for the father.

Abraham begat Isaac. Matches our current scientific evidence of human life beginning at conception.

I'll ask again. If I say conception and you say 11 weeks then as Christians what is the transcendent standard to test our truth claims?

 

[CurtisNeeley]

We do know when human life begins. Scientific evidence is at conception. There's no debate among embryologists. Nor is there any confusion in Scriptures when human life begins. The biblical evidence is life begins with the "begetting " which is the only function in procreation for the father.

Sorta correct but not sound use of Scripture. Scientist indeed agree that living cells begin at conception but admit having no idea when the live group of cells has begun their human life and may no longer be frozen for later use. "Begetting" includes much more than conception and Abraham was still "begetting" Isaac when he planned to sacrifice his son like God did Jesus. A proper father never stops "begetting".

Abraham begat Isaac. Matches our current scientific evidence of human life beginning at conception.

See above.

I'll ask again. If I say conception and you say 11 weeks then as Christians what is the transcendent standard to test our truth claims?

There is none for conception except that conception in a laboratory can be done and then be frozen for later use. These living zygotes are not human lives but are potential humans. A frozen Fetus is DEAD. Period.
The Fetus is first alive and first can't be frozen when the placenta creates the hormone progesterone produced first by the corpus luteum. God controls EVERY tiny detail of when human lives begin and a male is not necessary for this any longer. Christians usually ignore science and read human life begins at conception into various places in their interpretations of the Bible. Eisegesis instead of exegesis. See beget for generally accepted definitions. Courtesy of Merriam-Webster.
Christians can logically test these two propositions with science.
1. Freeze zygotes after conception and these can be implanted later or be destroyed by a power failure or be thrown out and allowed to die.
2. Freeze a Fetus after 11-weeks pass and a heartbeat has begun and this formerly live human is DEAD.
Christians can decide using this transcendent test and find truth. The results should be clear.

 

[redleghunter]

Sorta correct but not sound use of Scripture. Scientist indeed agree that living cells begin at conception but admit having no idea when the live group of cells has begun their human life and may no longer be frozen for later use. "Begetting" includes much more than conception and Abraham was still "begetting" Isaac when he planned to sacrifice his son like God did Jesus. A proper father never stops "begetting".

See above.

There is none for conception except that conception in a laboratory can be done and then be frozen for later use. These living zygotes are not human lives but are potential humans. A frozen Fetus is DEAD. Period.
The Fetus is first alive and first can't be frozen when the placenta creates the hormone progesterone produced first by the corpus luteum. God controls EVERY tiny detail of when human lives begin and a male is not necessary for this any longer. Christians usually ignore science and read human life begins at conception into various places in their interpretations of the Bible. Eisegesis instead of exegesis. See beget for generally accepted definitions. Courtesy of Merriam-Webster.
Christians can logically test these two propositions with science.
1. Freeze zygotes after conception and these can be implanted later or be destroyed by a power failure or be thrown out and allowed to die.
2. Freeze a Fetus after 11-weeks pass and a heartbeat has begun and this formerly live human is DEAD.
Christians can decide using this transcendent test and find truth. The results should be clear.

Do you have any substantial Biblical evidence to back up your claims?

Your scientific responses ignored what actual biologists state:

Here are some references to include Biblical evidences:

Abortion: Scientific evidence for new human being at conception:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...arding-abortion.7926139/page-28#post-69098593

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...arding-abortion.7926139/page-27#post-69097465

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...arding-abortion.7926139/page-28#post-69098685

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-42#post-69092147

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...n-a-fetuss-life.7915201/page-10#post-69082245



Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22ff

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...arding-abortion.7926139/page-28#post-69098322

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...r-for-the-babies.7922364/page-3#post-68987259

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-34#post-69060024



Abortion: The Mind of God on our humanity; How TaNaKh Jews viewed conception

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-42#post-69090685



Is abortion Ethical for seculars:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/it-should-be-murder.7925104/page-33#post-69118203



Bitter water explained:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/pro-life-or-pro-choice.7934246/page-98#post-69342499



Kill and Murder: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...rs-of-euthanasia.7936568/page-7#post-69372766

 

[civilwarbuff]

Sorta correct but not sound use of Scripture. Scientist indeed agree that living cells begin at conception but admit having no idea when the live group of cells has begun their human life and may no longer be frozen for later use. "Begetting" includes much more than conception and Abraham was still "begetting" Isaac when he planned to sacrifice his son like God did Jesus. A proper father never stops "begetting".

It appears you are simply applying your own definition to beget to suit your interpretation so I will refresh your memory of what the word means:
be·get
bəˈɡet/
verb
literary
gerund or present participle: begetting
1. (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"
synonyms:father, sire, have, bring into the world, give life to, bring into being, spawn
"he begat a son"

There is none for conception except that conception in a laboratory can be done and then be frozen for later use. These living zygotes are not human lives but are potential humans. A frozen Fetus is DEAD. Period.
The Fetus is first alive and first can't be frozen when the placenta creates the hormone progesterone produced first by the corpus luteum. God controls EVERY tiny detail of when human lives begin and a male is not necessary for this any longer. Christians usually ignore science and read human life begins at conception into various places in their interpretations of the Bible. Eisegesis instead of exegesis. See beget for generally accepted definitions. Courtesy of Merriam-Webster.
Christians can logically test these two propositions with science.
1. Freeze zygotes after conception and these can be implanted later or be destroyed by a power failure or be thrown out and allowed to die.
2. Freeze a Fetus after 11-weeks pass and a heartbeat has begun and this formerly live human is DEAD.
Christians can decide using this transcendent test and find truth. The results should be clear.

Of course, back in Abraham's day they understood all about freezing embryos, right? No? Then what does that have to do with anything? All attempts at cryopreservation that failed would indicate life begins at conception according to your POV; it would indicate the presence of a soul. Only after success would YOU move that goal post. Since we know that God does not change that goal post remains where it started: at conception unless, of course, you know better than God.
50 years ago embryos could not be frozen and then revived; now they can. 50 years from now humans may be frozen and then revived....Does that mean YOU will have to move the goal posts one more time? You are trying to use science to determine when life begins (using the soul as the basis of life) and science has no answers for that as they will readily admit. So should you.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Do you have any substantial Biblical evidence to back up your claims?

Your scientific responses ignored what actual biologists state:

Here are some references to include Biblical evidences:
Abortion: Scientific evidence for new human being at conception:
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks
Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks
Abortion: The Mind of God on our humanity; How TaNaKh Jews viewed conception
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks)
Is abortion Ethical for seculars:
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks)
Bitter water explained:
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks)
Kill and Murder:
(Link(s) to forum post to maybe another link -- no thanks

I will do another post to illustrate how ALL valid scientific knowledge about gestation follows Biblical text precisely. I will link to authoritative sources ONLY and will not ask ANYONE to follow a link to display another forum advertisement. It is significant to recognize Scripture describing the role of a father and a judge for second and third trimester abortions. Hmmm.

It appears you are simply applying your own definition to beget to suit your interpretation so I will refresh your memory of what the word means:
[*snip*]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beget
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beget

Of course, back in Abraham's day they understood all about freezing embryos, right? No? Then what does that have to do with anything? All attempts at cryopreservation that failed would indicate life begins at conception according to your POV; it would indicate the presence of a soul. Only after success would YOU move that goal post. Since we know that God does not change that goal post remains where it started: at conception unless, of course, you know better than God.

1. The definition of beget has always meant to produce. Do my posts beget so much frustration? <to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth>The goal posts written in the Bible are usually invisible but are in solid foundations and are immobile. Failures at embryonic cryopreservation were not caused by the presence of a soul but by errors. The older the embryo is when preserved, the harder these are to re-implant. I do not know better than God but understand His Word on when life starts better than most on Earth at this time; -unfortunately. I think I know things about Bible times and other issues in the past FAR beyond the truths written in the Bible or found in authoritative written history texts. These beliefs are best left as "delusions" caused by a severe traumatic brain injury until they occur. Two major changes have already begun though not precisely according to my delusion. Not YET anyway.

50 years ago embryos could not be frozen and then revived; now they can. 50 years from now humans may be frozen and then revived....Does that mean God will have to move the goal posts one more time? You are trying to use science to determine when life begins (using the soul as the basis of life) and science has no answers for that as they will readily admit. So should you.

50 years from now Christ will have returned. Between now and then, no human, or primate, will be cryopreserved . The Bible says EXACTLY when life begins but this will never be learned by scientific experiments because of the difficulty of this test. (Genesis 2:24)(Cornell.edu news)

As an aside that is newsworthy or will be to ALL civil war buffs. When Union Troops were preparing to battle or had battled confederates in NW AR during the Civil War; the Masonic Lodge of Winslow, AR Summit 530 was entered by Masonic Union soldiers and the original Charter from the Grand Lodge was taken. In 2014, the grandson of the soldier who had taken the original Charter of Summit 530 followed the instructions left in his father's will and returned the original Charter to Summit 530 after over 150 years. Today; Summit 530 is the only Masonic Lodge to have two original Charters. Slavery is not consistent with Masonic principles but no honorable Mason ever owned another human or should have been prosecuted for misconduct. Still; No fraternal group is perfect.

 

[redleghunter]

It is significant to recognize Scripture describing the role of a father and a judge for second and third trimester abortions. Hmmm.

This I have to see.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

This I have to see.

It is in your OWN prior post HERE although I do not follow links to forums.

Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.




If a doctor or other strives even with a willing female and causes the child to be aborted then blah... blah.... blah.... see above yourself.

Biblegateway.com allows you to look and choose different translations and allows them to be seen all at once. See.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Here is the whole passage since you seemed to miss it......
Exodus 21:22-25
22 “If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides.
23 If there is harm, then you are to require life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.
For some reason that I just can't figure out pro-abortionists always seem to forget to post the entire passage......I might have to start a study on that to figure it out......