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Method for accepting science

NailsII

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This thread started really nicely, and has just descended into chaos.
Oh well.

Anyway, there are a few interesting points raised early on, so I hope you guys don't mind if I rewind you a little:

I have been asking atheists this question for a long time.
Why do they reject science when it shows that the Bible is true.
There is no peer-reviwed science which backs up the bible, and we have been over this before.
Science does not say that Adam & Eve lived in the middle east 6,000 years ago.
Then why aren't you a "theist", since the VAST majority of humans agree on that "consensus"?
But believing in which god?
There is no clear concensus on that - and that in itself is very telling.

Can science make you the same promise that God can???
NO science can NOT do for you what God can do for you.
Would that be because science deals with facts about the universe, not stories that make you feel nice?
I'm always fascinated how atheists can simply overlook a direct falsification of mainstream theory, and give them the benefit of the doubt, yet put so little faith in "experts" like Jesus, on his topic of expertize. ;)
Jesus, son of the creator of everything, was an expert on what exactly?
 
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NGC 6712

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You're really avoiding the fact that we adding two primary features to the plasma to produce fusion, heat and confinement as any solar core would produce heat, confinement and thereby produce FUSION!
I am not avoiding anything - I have stated accurate statements all through this thread.

Like I said earlier somewhere - a F22 Raptor and bumble bee both fly - but it ain't a scaling issue and apart from the flying part have nothing in common. The same with fusion experiments (high T low D different ingredients and reactions) versus solar fusion (low T high D).

The FACT is we cannot do solar fusion in a lab. The FACT we can do a different fusion in a lab has no bearing whatsoever on the stellar case.
 
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Michael

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But believing in which god?

Does it matter in terms of my question? The largest single religion on the planet is "Christianity' if all you're looking for is 'consensus'. Islam would be number 2. Both religions claim to honor the teachings of Jesus. Between the two religions they represent more than 50 percent of all humans on Earth. In some ways at least, "Jesus" is the "consensus" even if there isn't a religious consensus yet.

There is no clear concensus on that - and that in itself is very telling.
Um, considering the fact that Jesus is revered by more than fifty percent of the humans that inhabit this planet, there is actually a consensus that Jesus is an 'expert" on the topic of "God". Jesus the teacher tends to transcend religion in that way.

Jesus, son of the creator of everything, was an expert on what exactly?
He was a recognized "expert" at connecting to God within. :)
 
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Michael

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I am not avoiding anything - I have stated accurate statements all through this thread.

You're trying to stuff YOUR criteria down MY throat. When can I expect you to stop that?

Like I said earlier somewhere - a F22 Raptor and bumble bee both fly - but it ain't a scaling issue and apart from the flying part have nothing in common.
It's the fact that they both fly that matters! Oy Vey. If you want to claim that some things can fly, a simple bumble bee would have been a sufficient example. All I care is that that "fusion happens". You're the only one that cares that they aren't the SAME EXACT fusion reactions and SAME EXACT conditions, not me.
 
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NGC 6712

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You're trying to stuff YOUR criteria down MY throat. When can I expect you to stop that?
Not my criteria - any physicist would tell you exactly what I am saying.
It's the fact that they both fly that matters! Oy Vey. If you want to claim that some things can fly, a simple bumble bee would have been a sufficient example. All I care is that that "fusion happens". You're the only one that cares that they aren't the SAME EXACT fusion reactions and SAME EXACT conditions, not me.
Hold on a second. This all started because you claim if it can't be done in a lab then it isn't science. Well solar fusion can't. You are relaxing your stance to some simplistic level because you know you have got yourself in a corner here.

I do not care they are the exact conditions (I would allow for scaling and extrapolation to some degree) BUT I (and any scientist) do care that they have to be the same reactions.

Put it this way - you can't power a star by lab type fusion. Or vice versa. Ergo, solar fusion cannot be science in your criteria. Stop watering your argument down to weasel out so you can still object to other scientific phenomena.

ps

What a way to spend my birthday. LOL LOL
 
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Michael

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Not my criteria - any physicist would tell you exactly what I am saying.

I'm not even disagreeing with what you're saying up till the point you intend to stuff your criteria for accepting the concept of fusion down my throat.

Hold on a second. This all started because you claim if it can't be done in a lab then it isn't science.

I didn't even actually claim that. That's another of your strawmen.

Well solar fusion can't.

Fusion (generic) can! That's all *I* care about.

You are relaxing your stance to some simplistic level because you know you have got yourself in a corner here.

No, you keep running yourself in circles trying to impose YOUR standards and YOUR strawmen on me. When can I expect you to stop that behavior?

I do not care they are the exact conditions (I would allow for scaling and extrapolation to some degree) BUT I (and any scientist) do care that they have to be the same reactions.

In terms of simply demonstrating that "fusion" is possible, I do not care. All I care is that fusion occurs here on Earth. You're the only one of the two of us that cares WHAT KIND of fusion occurs.

What a way to spend my birthday. LOL LOL

Well, happy birthday. FYI, I'm about to go out to dinner and have a drink with my wife. I hope you also take some time to have some fun today. ;)
 
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NGC 6712

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I'm not even disagreeing with what you're saying up till the point you intend to stuff your criteria for accepting the concept of fusion down my throat.
I didn't even actually claim that. That's another of your strawmen.
Fusion (generic) can! That's all *I* care about.
No, you keep running yourself in circles trying to impose YOUR standards and YOUR strawmen on me. When can I expect you to stop that behavior?
Well you need to stop arguing about science then Michael. Because I am imposing standards that would be acceptable in a scientific debate, you are not. You can ignore this but it makes the discussion scientifically pointless then. Not a strawman by the way - you imply the very thing I have accused you of when you talk about dark energy and dark matter.
In terms of simply demonstrating that "fusion" is possible, I do not care. All I care is that fusion occurs here on Earth. You're the only one of the two of us that cares WHAT KIND of fusion occurs.
Well what you care about is meaningless in a scientific argument. The discussion becomes pointless.
Well, happy birthday. FYI, I'm about to go out to dinner and have a drink with my wife. I hope you also take some time to have some fun today. ;)
Yeah - I'll be of out to dinner too. Have a good one.
 
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No. I don't care if you want to use Newton's formulas to go to the moon, or GR theory, or some graviton based theoretical model if you like. Whatever floats your boat. I'm CERTAIN that gravity exists, and I don't particularly care how you wish to mathematically express it or use it. If however you expect me to believe that one of these methods is superior to the other, or that some PARTICLE is responsible, I'll expect some type of falsification mechanism and hopefully some "evidence' to support it.


But fusion reactions have been observed. That's good enough for me to accept it as a viable possible energy source.

And I don't personally believe in any exotic brands of matter. IMO 'dark matter' is nothing more than mass in the plasma state the astronomers simply haven't found yet or identified yet.

As long as you can demonstrate A type of fusion, I'm willing to let you propose other types too. :) You don't hear me complaining about and sort of fusion theory.

Somewhere around here I've posted links to recent published papers and articles that show that astronomers underestimated the mass of larger stars in galaxies, they underestimated (by a factor of 4) the number of 'smaller' suns we CANNOT see from a distance (like the larger ones) and they're 'predictions' related to exotic matter in our area of the Milky Way went up in smoke in just the last 4 years. PC theory doesn't even REQUIRES DM in the first place to explain galaxy mass layouts. Peratt's PIC experiments produced all sorts of structures that look and function like 'galaxies' with ordinary EM fields.

So gravity exists. We have ways of detecting standard particles due to it's interaction with the E-M spectrum. We see, by velocity measurements, that there is more gravity than can be explained via E-M interactions in the region.

You reject that this is a as yet unreproduced form of matter that interacts with gravity but not E-M radiation because we haven't observed it in the lab.

And fusion exists. We have ways of detecting standard fuels due to their interaction with the E-M spectrum. We see, by measurements of their spectra, that there is more fusion going on than can be explained via deuterium fusion.

You do NOT reject that there is thus an as yet unreproduced form of fusion that combines H-1 atoms into He-4 atoms despite not having observed it in the lab.
 
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Michael

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[serious];60708227 said:
So gravity exists.

Yep. We feel it and experience it every single day. Gravity is a well "qualified" part of reality as well as quantified in various ways.

We have ways of detecting standard particles due to it's interaction with the E-M spectrum.
Indeed. There are many forces of nature like the EM field which also have a tangible effect on matter here on Earth, much like gravity has an effect on matter here on Earth.

We see, by velocity measurements, that there is more gravity than can be explained via E-M interactions in the region.
Actually even that isn't necessarily true. Peratt's PIC models very closely resemble the layouts of galaxies *WITHOUT* anything but plasma and EM fields and without the need for additional mass. He simply uses an additional force, specifically the EM field. Then of course there are MOND models and such.

Even if we ASSUME that our scientific theories and techniques do not account for all the mass of a given galaxy, what evidence do I have that any of that mass exists in an "exotic" form? IMO it is MUCH more likely that mainstream galaxy mass estimation techniques are USELESS at making "accurate" predictions about the amount of NORMAL matter in a galaxy. Why should I think those models are "perfect" anyway?

You reject that this is a as yet unreproduced form of matter that interacts with gravity
It would be akin to me *TELLING YOU* that "God" interacts with "gravity", therefore "God matter did it". You're essentially just "making up" some mythical "gap filler" to plug the gaps of an otherwise FALSIFIED theory and then trying to ride the coattails of GR to gain some kind of credibility for the idea. There's no empirical link between exotic forms of matter and gravity. You simply ASSUME all these various "properties" so you can PLUG THE GAPS of an otherwise dead theory. Why would you even do that?

And fusion exists. We have ways of detecting standard fuels due to their interaction with the E-M spectrum. We see, by measurements of their spectra, that there is more fusion going on than can be explained via deuterium fusion.
Sure, but fusion is a "demonstrated" process on Earth. It's no great leap of faith to believe that various conditions in space are capable of producing various fusion reactions.

You can't possible mean to tell me that you can't see the the empirical difference between accepting that "fusion happens" is quite different than proposing an entirely NEW entity like "God" or "God matter" or "magic matter", or "dark matter" to explain something in the sky that humans can never reach.

You do NOT reject that there is thus an as yet unreproduced form of fusion that combines H-1 atoms into He-4 atoms despite not having observed it in the lab.
Fusion has been shown to occur on Earth. Conditions in space are not necessarily exactly the same as they are on Earth, therefore it's possible that different elements can be fused differently out there in space somewhere than it is CURRENTLY done here on Earth. So what?

Again, that is NOTHING like making up an ad hoc 'gap filler' to SAVE one otherwise FALSIFIED cosmology theory. Why not just let that ONE cosmology theory die a natural scientific death and take a closer look at Peratt's PIC models of galaxy movements? Why not start by tossing out current galaxy mass estimation models and starting over? There is certainly PLENTY of evidence over the past four years to demonstrate that we GROSSLY underestimate the amount of ordinary matter in a galaxy. IMO it's time to start letting some theories just "die" a natural scientific death and it's time to start looking into new ideas. That's why I'm currently interested in PC/EU theory by the way.

Empirical physics SHOULD matter. It SHOULD be a "preferred" way to go whenever and wherever possible.
 
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RickG

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Actually for 3500 years the Bible has been shown to be right. We have a situation where the Adam and Eve in the Bible ARE NOT the common ancestor for ALL of mankind. So a tradition has been shattered. But that means we need to get at a better understanding of the Bible. Because the Bible remains accurate and true. Even if our interpretation of a 3500 year old book is subject to change.

Don't you mean the Torah?
 
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Actually for 3500 years the Bible has been shown to be right. We have a situation where the Adam and Eve in the Bible ARE NOT the common ancestor for ALL of mankind. So a tradition has been shattered. But that means we need to get at a better understanding of the Bible. Because the Bible remains accurate and true. Even if our interpretation of a 3500 year old book is subject to change.

Well how is Genesis correct?

No creation event that took 6 days.
No global flood.
 
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Davian

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Followup:

"An analysis of the kinematics of 412 stars at 1-4 kpc from the Galactic mid-plane by Moni Bidin et al. (2012) has claimed to derive a local density of dark matter that is an order of magnitude below standard expectations. We show that this result is incorrect and that it arises from the invalid assumption that the mean azimuthal velocity of the stellar tracers is independent of Galactocentric radius at all heights; the correct assumption---that is, the one supported by data---is that the circular speed is independent of radius in the mid-plane. We demonstrate that the assumption of constant mean azimuthal velocity is physically implausible by showing that it requires the circular velocity to drop more steeply than allowed by any plausible mass model, with or without dark matter, at large heights above the mid-plane. Using the correct approximation that the circular velocity curve is flat in the mid-plane, we find that the data imply a local dark-matter density of 0.008 +/- 0.002 Msun/pc^3= 0.3 +/- 0.1 Gev/cm^3, fully consistent with standard estimates of this quantity. This is the most robust direct measurement of the local dark-matter density to date."

Link to paper - On the local dark matter density

As picked from last week's SGU podcast:

SGU Episode 359 - SGUTranscripts

"...a more thorough analysis of the data actually shows evidence for dark matter in quantities consistent with current models."
 
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Yep. We feel it and experience it every single day. Gravity is a well "qualified" part of reality as well as quantified in various ways.

Indeed. There are many forces of nature like the EM field which also have a tangible effect on matter here on Earth, much like gravity has an effect on matter here on Earth.

Actually even that isn't necessarily true. Peratt's PIC models very closely resemble the layouts of galaxies *WITHOUT* anything but plasma and EM fields and without the need for additional mass. He simply uses an additional force, specifically the EM field. Then of course there are MOND models and such.
There is a reason plasma cosmology stopped getting much attention. You see, when there are multiple models for the same phenomina, scientists try to find some way of testing the predictions of the two theories. For example, both theories suggested different things about the fine structure of the CMB. We can then maybe send some sort of space craft to the L2 earth-sun lagrange point. From there it could collect highly accurate data about the CMB to see if it agrees with the standard modle or plasma cosmology. Guess what WMAP found? So we've got one model that requires 1 new particle. We've got another model that needs some kind of explanation of CMB observations. Personally, I prefer the theory that explains current observations rather than the one that disregards the possibility of an as of yet undiscovered particle.
Even if we ASSUME that our scientific theories and techniques do not account for all the mass of a given galaxy, what evidence do I have that any of that mass exists in an "exotic" form? IMO it is MUCH more likely that mainstream galaxy mass estimation techniques are USELESS at making "accurate" predictions about the amount of NORMAL matter in a galaxy. Why should I think those models are "perfect" anyway?
We assume it exists in an exotic form because we do not see baryonic EM interactions.
It would be akin to me *TELLING YOU* that "God" interacts with "gravity", therefore "God matter did it".
You are confusing the Higgs boson with dark matter. They are two different things.
You're essentially just "making up" some mythical "gap filler" to plug the gaps of an otherwise FALSIFIED theory and then trying to ride the coattails of GR to gain some kind of credibility for the idea. There's no empirical link between exotic forms of matter and gravity. You simply ASSUME all these various "properties" so you can PLUG THE GAPS of an otherwise dead theory. Why would you even do that?
We see the effects of gravity. We don't see baryonic matter to explain it. Thus, there appears to be non baryonic matter responsible for it which does not interact with EM.
Sure, but fusion is a "demonstrated" process on Earth. It's no great leap of faith to believe that various conditions in space are capable of producing various fusion reactions.

You can't possible mean to tell me that you can't see the the empirical difference between accepting that "fusion happens" is quite different than proposing an entirely NEW entity like "God" or "God matter" or "magic matter", or "dark matter" to explain something in the sky that humans can never reach.
1. We aren't talking about the Higgs boson. Stay on topic.
2. fusion happens and gravity happens. Stellar fusion hasn't been observed on earth. Whatever massive stuff is out there not interacting with EM waves has also not been observed on earth.
 
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Michael

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Followup:

"An analysis of the kinematics of 412 stars at 1-4 kpc from the Galactic mid-plane by Moni Bidin et al. (2012) has claimed to derive a local density of dark matter that is an order of magnitude below standard expectations. We show that this result is incorrect and that it arises from the invalid assumption that the mean azimuthal velocity of the stellar tracers is independent of Galactocentric radius at all heights; the correct assumption---that is, the one supported by data---is that the circular speed is independent of radius in the mid-plane. We demonstrate that the assumption of constant mean azimuthal velocity is physically implausible by showing that it requires the circular velocity to drop more steeply than allowed by any plausible mass model, with or without dark matter, at large heights above the mid-plane. Using the correct approximation that the circular velocity curve is flat in the mid-plane, we find that the data imply a local dark-matter density of 0.008 +/- 0.002 Msun/pc^3= 0.3 +/- 0.1 Gev/cm^3, fully consistent with standard estimates of this quantity. This is the most robust direct measurement of the local dark-matter density to date."

Link to paper - On the local dark matter density

As picked from last week's SGU podcast:

SGU Episode 359 - SGUTranscripts

"...a more thorough analysis of the data actually shows evidence for dark matter in quantities consistent with current models."

Hey, thanks for the follow up paper and the links, I appreciate it. :) FYI, I'm already 1 1/4 papers behind on my reading, but I'll try to catch up this week.
 
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Michael

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[serious];60713621 said:
There is a reason plasma cosmology stopped getting much attention.

Ya, empirical physics is too "boring" for the mainstream. That isn't what actually surprises me, it's the 'hatred' one sees at astronomy oriented websites toward the idea that I find absolutely disgusting.

You see, when there are multiple models for the same phenomina, scientists try to find some way of testing the predictions of the two theories.
Penrose figured out a way to "test" inflation mathematically. A simple Occum's razor argument blows it out of the water based on pure statistical odds. Does that matter to the mainstream? Of course not! Their inflation dogma lives on and they CONTINUE to claim that a "flat universe" is a key and highly relevant and highly important "prediction" of "inflation". What bogus nonsense. If that were true, inflation loses that bet HANDS DOWN in terms of the odds.

For example, both theories suggested different things about the fine structure of the CMB. We can then maybe send some sort of space craft to the L2 earth-sun lagrange point. From there it could collect highly accurate data about the CMB to see if it agrees with the standard modle or plasma cosmology.
How about that gamma ray background? Why aren't you using THAT wavelength to calculate the TEMPERATURE of a whole universe too? Even picking a SINGLE wavelength was dubious IMO. The fact that early predictions of the temperature of space based upon the effect of starlight on matter were MUCH closer than early BB models still doesn't matter to the mainstream. They still insist that only a BANG could be responsible for that wavelength, even thought is damn clear that every star in our own galaxy emits them, and "scattering happens" in space.

Guess what WMAP found?
Exactly what they wanted it to find because they SUBTRACTED OUT everything related to emissions from OUR GALAXY and any other close "point sources". What's left other than "scattering over a long distance"?

So we've got one model that requires 1 new particle. We've got another model that needs some kind of explanation of CMB observations. Personally, I prefer the theory that explains current observations rather than the one that disregards the possibility of an as of yet undiscovered particle.
I don't care if you want to have faith in some magic sky particle. What I care about is that PC/EU theory isn't taught along side "standard" faith based dogma in the classroom. It's the completele DISREGARD for empirical physics that I find unacceptable. If nobody can stuff "faith' down my children's throat in the classroom, why are "astronomers" given a "free pass"? What's wrong with teaching MULTIPLE ideas anyway, particularly when one of them is based upon PURE EMPIRICAL PHYSICS?

We assume it exists in an exotic form because we do not see baryonic EM interactions.
But how about those studies that show that the mainstream underestimates that mass of larger stars in a galaxy and GROSSLY underestimates the amount of smaller stars we cannot see compared to the larger ones we can observe? Why haven't the percentages of magical matter changed even a 1/2 a percentage point in over 5 years? Talk about foot dragging. From out the outside looking in, it appears that the mainstream is EMOTIONALLY and FINANCIALLY invested in "magic matter' so deeply that it's incapable of acknowledging ERRORS in their models and it's incapable of updating them.

You are confusing the Higgs boson with dark matter. They are two different things.
Neither one has been seen in the lab, but the Higgs is part of standard particle theory, whereas "dark matter" is not. Mainstream cosmology theory is actually predicated upon a THEORETICAL set of extensions to standard particle physics theory, or a NON STANDARD brand of particle physics theory. FYI, the simplest SUSY theories have already all but been eliminated at LHC.

We see the effects of gravity. We don't see baryonic matter to explain it.
So what? Our technology is PRIMITIVE in terms of even picking out SMALL STARS in distant galaxies. Why would you ASSUME that our models are even up to the challenge of finding all the mass when we can't actually see WHOLE (small) STARS in distant galaxies yet?

Thus, there appears to be non baryonic matter responsible for it which does not interact with EM. 1. We aren't talking about the Higgs boson. Stay on topic.
You still have not demonstrated that mainstream galaxy rotation models are worth the paper they are printed on. In fact, you actually FALSIFY them and then resurrected them from the empirical dead by INVENTING magic matter. The mainstream quite literally pulled a magic matter rabbit out of it's hat. That's how it appears to a "skeptic" at least.

2. fusion happens and gravity happens. Stellar fusion hasn't been observed on earth.
So what? 'Black holes" haven't been observed on Earth either, but there is plenty of evidence that SOMETHING exists at the core of our galaxy that contains a LOT of gravitational attraction to other stars in the vicinity. I can and do allow for "scaling" as must ALL cosmology theories.

Whatever massive stuff is out there not interacting with EM waves has also not been observed on earth.
Again, all of this is PREDICATED on your FAITH in mainstream galaxy rotation models, including star layouts, etc. None of it is based upon empirical physics. It's essentially a "magic matter of the gaps" argument and the gaps are getting smaller every year. The problem is that the mainstream isn't really responding to those gap changes. It's actually ignoring them at the moment, and PRAYING LHC finds SOME evidence of SOMETHING they can latch on to. The first thing they'll need that gap filler to do is LAST long enough to be useful to them. Good luck with that one.
 
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mkatzwork

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Penrose figured out a way to "test" inflation mathematically. A simple Occum's razor argument blows it out of the water based on pure statistical odds. Does that matter to the mainstream? Of course not! Their inflation dogma lives on and they CONTINUE to claim that a "flat universe" is a key and highly relevant and highly important "prediction" of "inflation". What bogus nonsense. If that were true, inflation loses that bet HANDS DOWN in terms of the odds.

It's Occam or Ockham, for starters, seen you misspell that quite a number of times.

You do know that Penrose's post-WMAP alternative is essentially a cyclic theory, something even more at odds with biblical creation?
 
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Michael

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It's Occam or Ockham, for starters, seen you misspell that quite a number of times.

Okey Dokey. You must realize from a skeptics perspective just have outrageous it sounds to use "flatness" as a "successful prediction" of inflation. :(

You do know that Penrose's post-WMAP alternative is essentially a cyclic theory, something even more at odds with biblical creation?

Should that bother me?
 
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mkatzwork

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Should that bother me?

Hindu's love the idea. It does contradict most Biblical interpretations of creation, and means we are very much further from special than cosmology would currently indicate (which would seem to be about as far from special as one could imagine).

Does it bother you?
 
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Michael

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Hindu's love the idea. It does contradict most Biblical interpretations of creation, and means we are very much further from special than cosmology would currently indicate (which would seem to be about as far from special as one could imagine).

Does it bother you?

Nope. I rather liked Alfven's "bang" theory, but it was also a 'cyclical' event.
 
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