Messianics and Talmud

[xDenax]

In modern Judaism, Akiva is acclaimed as the greatest rabbi of all time and is worshipped by his rabbinic followers.
​

I do not worship Akiva.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I do not worship Akiva.

Devotion to your teacher is an old and honored practice.

We worship a different rabbi, that is all.

 

[ContraMundum]

In modern Judaism the oral writings of the rabbis are much more important than even the torah and most of these writings come from Akiva. The Talmud is filled with stories of how great Akiva was. There are stories of every great man of the bible praising Akiva, even such great men as Abraham and Moses and even Adam in the garden of Eden talked about how great Akiva was. Clearly these are fairy tales and made up by Akiva himself.

Akiva made the rabbis into gods and gave all authority not only in earth but heaven also to the rabbis. Akiva was also the one who wrote that Yahweh is merely one of 70 rabbis and must submit to the will of the rabbis.

Akiva was also the one who named Simon Bar Kochba as the Messiah in 132 CE. Akiva saw that many Jews were accepting Yahshua as the promised Messiah and knew he had to do something to stop the movement, so he named Bar Kochba as the messiah, well knowing that believers of Yahshua could not fight in a holy war for a false messiah. The punishment for not fighting against the Romans was imprisonment, confiscation of property and also death.

Akiva set up a 4-man tribunal against believers with himself at the head, and sentenced many of our Jewish brothers and sisters to death. This is why by the second half of the second century CE, there were very few Jewish believers left in society. Akiva also wrote evil lies about Yahshua and called him everything from a warlock to a bastard, to a liar. All this is written in the Talmud.

In modern Judaism, Akiva is acclaimed as the greatest rabbi of all time and is worshipped by his rabbinic followers. No wonder there is so much hatred for Yahshua among orthodox followers today.
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/should_we_follow_the_rabbis.htm
​

That article is pure polemic hyperbole. Whoever wrote it really doesn't get Judaism.

 

[pat34lee]

If I read your offerings correctly, it seems that the house of Hillel was harsher than Shammai? That's not my understanding of the two. From my research (admittedly limited) Hillel was far more understanding of the letter kills, the Spirit gives life that was later taught by Yeshua. The Bible does support this by the statement from Gamiliel (a grandson) to the Sanhedrin in Acts.

That was true up until the destruction of the temple and Akiva's consolidation of power.

Rabbinic Judaism had strayed far from the original teachings of Hillel himself, who was noted as a great peacemaker, and reconciler -- a man of love, kindness, and patience. The heirs of Judaism had become impatient, unkind, dictatorial, and cruel. The Nazarenes, who had been a minority for over 40 years, and who had been tolerated if not accepted, were no longer to enjoy any grace or favor in the eyes of the new Rabbinical councils. A new Regime took over, after the destruction of the Temple, and perhaps fearing for its own security and very existence, after Roman oppression and persecution, they themselves became vicious persecutors of the Nazarenes and pushed them outside the confines and bounds of Judaism!
THE MYSTERIOUS RELATIONSHIP OF THE EARLY NAZARENE CHRISTIANS AND RABBINIC JUDAISM - William F. Dankenbring - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy
​

 

[Avodat]

That was true up until the destruction of the temple and Akiva's consolidation of power.

Rabbinic Judaism had strayed far from the original teachings of Hillel himself, who was noted as a great peacemaker, and reconciler -- a man of love, kindness, and patience. The heirs of Judaism had become impatient, unkind, dictatorial, and cruel. The Nazarenes, who had been a minority for over 40 years, and who had been tolerated if not accepted, were no longer to enjoy any grace or favor in the eyes of the new Rabbinical councils. A new Regime took over, after the destruction of the Temple, and perhaps fearing for its own security and very existence, after Roman oppression and persecution, they themselves became vicious persecutors of the Nazarenes and pushed them outside the confines and bounds of Judaism!
THE MYSTERIOUS RELATIONSHIP OF THE EARLY NAZARENE CHRISTIANS AND RABBINIC JUDAISM - William F. Dankenbring - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy
​

Your quote source also wrote, in some very odd writings:

W. Dankenbring wrote:
"Celebrate with us!
"The 21st ANNIVERSARY of God’s ACTIVATION . . . of Triumph Prophetic Ministries as the replacement, “obedient” CHURCH OF GOD, Replacing the WCG as God’s True Work On January 17, 1987—one year exactly from the date Herbert W. Armstrong died!
"TRIUMPH PROPHETIC MINISTRIES CHURCH OF GOD is the ‘only’ remnant body in the World, of “Jesus Christ,” the Church He said He would “BUILD” which preaches what He, the twelve apostles, and the apostle Paul, all faithfully taught...

So he is the ONLY church in the world that preaches what Jesus taught, even though he previously announced that his ministry was not a church at all! I would think carefully before quoting him!

 

[yedida]

Your quote source also wrote, in some very odd writings:

W. Dankenbring wrote:
"Celebrate with us!
"The 21st ANNIVERSARY of God’s ACTIVATION . . . of Triumph Prophetic Ministries as the replacement, “obedient” CHURCH OF GOD, Replacing the WCG as God’s True Work On January 17, 1987—one year exactly from the date Herbert W. Armstrong died!
"TRIUMPH PROPHETIC MINISTRIES CHURCH OF GOD is the ‘only’ remnant body in the World, of “Jesus Christ,” the Church He said He would “BUILD” which preaches what He, the twelve apostles, and the apostle Paul, all faithfully taught...

So he is the ONLY church in the world that preaches Jesus taught, even though he previously announced that his ministry was not a church at all! I would think carefully before quoting him!

Yeah, smalled rather fishy to me.....

 

[Avodat]

Yeah, smalled rather fishy to me.....

Always best to do a thorough check on the person you are going to quote. There are 1000's of writers on the web - only a small minority are worthy of being quoted with any certainty.

 

[yedida]

Always best to do a thorough check on the person you are going to quote. There are 1000's of writers on the web - only a small minority are worthy of being quoted with any certainty.

That's right.

 

[anisavta]

Just another variation of a transliteration of Jehovah.. YHVH.. etc

I thought perhaps Yeshua. Goes to show when you make up names for G~d, credibility goes out the window.

 

[GuardianShua]

Your quote source also wrote, in some very odd writings:

W. Dankenbring wrote:
"Celebrate with us!
"The 21st ANNIVERSARY of God’s ACTIVATION . . . of Triumph Prophetic Ministries as the replacement, “obedient” CHURCH OF GOD, Replacing the WCG as God’s True Work On January 17, 1987—one year exactly from the date Herbert W. Armstrong died!
"TRIUMPH PROPHETIC MINISTRIES CHURCH OF GOD is the ‘only’ remnant body in the World, of “Jesus Christ,” the Church He said He would “BUILD” which preaches what He, the twelve apostles, and the apostle Paul, all faithfully taught...

So he is the ONLY church in the world that preaches what Jesus taught, even though he previously announced that his ministry was not a church at all! I would think carefully before quoting him!

The Catholics did replace the words "assembly" and "congregation" with the word "church." According to scripture the true temple to be built is our souls. "Us." That is, both body and spirit. So what do you think the word "church" means?

 

[mishkan]

I thought perhaps Yeshua. Goes to show when you make up names for G~d, credibility goes out the window.

I don't know about credibility. That will be determined by the real content of his/her messages. But it sure doesn't make for good communication.

 

[pat34lee]

I thought perhaps Yeshua. Goes to show when you make up names for G~d, credibility goes out the window.

How would you write his name then, knowing that it is not god, lord, adonai, hashem, etc.? If you are going to put down someone else's belief, state yours plainly as an alternative, and why it is better.

 

[pat34lee]

Your quote source also wrote, in some very odd writings:

W. Dankenbring wrote:

So he is the ONLY church in the world that preaches what Jesus taught, even though he previously announced that his ministry was not a church at all! I would think carefully before quoting him!

I quote many people online where I agree with what they say. I doubt that I agree totally with any of them on everything. Mr. Dankenbring is only one of several I have quoted on this topic.

 

[anisavta]

יהוה

 

[yedida]

How would you write his name then, knowing that it is not god, lord, adonai, hashem, etc.? If you are going to put down someone else's belief, state yours plainly as an alternative, and why it is better.

Where is it documented without a shadow of a doubt that the vav in His personal name carried a "U" sound, and not an "O" or was instead a vowel, either "v" or "w" and what vowel afterwards? I never seen one, not even heard of there being one.
Pronouncing His name wrong is not a good idea. When we use God, Adonai, Hashem, Lord, He knows we're speaking of Him and others know too, or they can ask, if they don't know.
Also, I must state when someone new comes into a place, be it a forum or a literal place, it is common courtesy to use the terms they use as long as they are not certainly wrong, not try to come up with new ones.
Just as an example, I don't like to use the name "Jesus" but I usually use it in GT because that is the norm. It's not like Yeshua doesn't know He is the one being spoken of/to. He's a bit smarter than that. It's just courtesy on my part. (I'm always happy to get back here and say His name over and over again. Yeshua! Yeshua!)
Yes, His name is Yeshua, it was not Yahoshua (though Yeshua was/is a shortened version of that name) and it was definitely NOT Yahshuah/Yahshua (there is no such word/name in either ancient nor Modern Hebrew - that is a non-Hebrew word, has absolutely no meaning).
The word that means salvation in Hebrew in the Tanakh is pronounced yeshua. Why would God the Father call His son anything else?

 

[Avodat]

I quote many people online where I agree with what they say. I doubt that I agree totally with any of them on everything. Mr. Dankenbring is only one of several I have quoted on this topic.

The idea of refuting somone elses ideas, or backing up your own, is that you use recognised authorities on an issue. With respect, you have to maintain some integrity in your quotes if you are to be taken seriously in how you back up your arguments. After all one could easily disprove that Yeshua ever existed by using quotes on the internet. The fact that they are there doesn't make them right. I am equally sure you do not take just the bits of The Book that you agree with, leaving the rest to one side, do you?

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm, really disappointed that pat43 decided to start a thread on the Talmud marked for Torah Scroll'ers only, as the only people who read and study the Talmud on this forum are Rabbinic Jews and myself.

Oh well....you don't want an informed opinion....we can't help you.

Haha, true dat. However, most in this thread seem to be doing just fine.

 

[GuardianShua]

Where is it documented without a shadow of a doubt that the vav in His personal name carried a "U" sound, and not an "O" or was instead a vowel, either "v" or "w" and what vowel afterwards? I never seen one, not even heard of there being one.
Pronouncing His name wrong is not a good idea. When we use God, Adonai, Hashem, Lord, He knows we're speaking of Him and others know too, or they can ask, if they don't know.
Also, I must state when someone new comes into a place, be it a forum or a literal place, it is common courtesy to use the terms they use as long as they are not certainly wrong, not try to come up with new ones.
Just as an example, I don't like to use the name "Jesus" but I usually use it in GT because that is the norm. It's not like Yeshua doesn't know He is the one being spoken of/to. He's a bit smarter than that. It's just courtesy on my part. (I'm always happy to get back here and say His name over and over again. Yeshua! Yeshua!)
Yes, His name is Yeshua, it was not Yahoshua (though Yeshua was/is a shortened version of that name) and it was definitely NOT Yahshuah/Yahshua (there is no such word/name in either ancient nor Modern Hebrew - that is a non-Hebrew word, has absolutely no meaning).
The word that means salvation in Hebrew in the Tanakh is pronounced yeshua. Why would God the Father call His son anything else?

Originally Hebrew did not use the letter "E" for a vowel. In the first century AD the scribes changed all of the theophoric names, in order to keep God's name from being pronounced.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Jeremiah 23:27.
Through their dreams that they tell one another, they make plans to cause My people to forget My name as their fathers forgot My name through Baal worship.


My translation
Through their imaginings that they tell each other, they made plans to cause my people to forget my name, like their forefathers forgot my name through Baal worship.

Some Biblical theophoric names end in ia(h) or yah as shortened forms of YHWH: That points to the vowels being "a".

 

[pat34lee]

Where is it documented without a shadow of a doubt that the vav in His personal name carried a "U" sound, and not an "O" or was instead a vowel, either "v" or "w" and what vowel afterwards? I never seen one, not even heard of there being one.
Pronouncing His name wrong is not a good idea. When we use God, Adonai, Hashem, Lord, He knows we're speaking of Him and others know too, or they can ask, if they don't know.
Also, I must state when someone new comes into a place, be it a forum or a literal place, it is common courtesy to use the terms they use as long as they are not certainly wrong, not try to come up with new ones.
Just as an example, I don't like to use the name "Jesus" but I usually use it in GT because that is the norm. It's not like Yeshua doesn't know He is the one being spoken of/to. He's a bit smarter than that. It's just courtesy on my part. (I'm always happy to get back here and say His name over and over again. Yeshua! Yeshua!)
Yes, His name is Yeshua, it was not Yahoshua (though Yeshua was/is a shortened version of that name) and it was definitely NOT Yahshuah/Yahshua (there is no such word/name in either ancient nor Modern Hebrew - that is a non-Hebrew word, has absolutely no meaning).
The word that means salvation in Hebrew in the Tanakh is pronounced yeshua. Why would God the Father call His son anything else?

I slip back to using Yahshuah (from Joshua) at times because I used it for a good while. I normally use Yahushua (but will use Yeshua when that is already in a post I respond to). This page has a good explanation of the name: YHWHYahuahTransliteration study on the Name of the MessiahSabbathMessianicNatsarimIsraelYahushuaLewWhiteFossilizedCustomsTorahNazareneIsraelPaganChristianityKipa

 

[pat34lee]

יהוה

I think everyone agrees on the Hebrew spelling of the name. The pronunciation is what you called 'made-up' with without giving a better alternative. If you don't like writing it whole, use syllables, eg. Ya and Hu and Ah.