Messianics and Talmud

[A_Pioneer]

So sad that some believe that no Jew was ever inspired until after the coming of the Messiah.
There was, are and will be spirit filled Jews forever!

 

[Steve Petersen]

Take time to read it before you criticize.

Arguments from ignorance won't convince anyone.

 

[ananda]

I agree, MM The fact of the statement where he told his people that "...they sit on the seat of Moses, therefore do as they tell you, just don't be like them..." Lately, I've been really wanting to delve more into this.

I think it's an interesting footnote in history that the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew reads Mt 23:3 differently:

ועתה כל אשר יאמר לכם שמרו ועשו ובתקנותיהם ומעשיהם אל תעשו שהם אומרים והם אינם עושים

"Therefore, whatever that he (in reference to Moses) says to you to guard, guard and do. Their (in reference to the scribes and Pharisees) takanot/regulations/reforms and deeds do not do, for they say, and they do not do."

 

[yedida]

I think it's an interesting footnote in history that the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew reads Mt 23:3 differently:

ועתה כל אשר יאמר לכם שמרו ועשו ובתקנותיהם ומעשיהם אל תעשו שהם אומרים והם אינם עושים

"Therefore, whatever that he (in reference to Moses) says to you to guard, guard and do. Their (in reference to the scribes and Pharisees) takanot/regulations/reforms and deeds do not do, for they say, and they do not do."

Hi dear, I'm not offering this link to refute your post but to offer a more knowledgeable person's rendering of the verse in question. (Because it's based on 2 foreign languages to me, I can only agree or disagree based on very limited knowledge, so I'm just offering another scholastic's view.) Between the two men, Hegg and Gordon, I trust Hegg more. (Gordon agrees with Shem Tov.j
The discussion on Matt. 23:3 begins on page 2.

I'm doing soooo very good!! L left out the link. OUch!
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

 

[ananda]

Hi dear, I'm not offering this link to refute your post but to offer a more knowledgeable person's rendering of the verse in question. (Because it's based on 2 foreign languages to me, I can only agree or disagree based on very limited knowledge, so I'm just offering another scholastic's view.) Between the two men, Hegg and Gordon, I trust Hegg more. (Gordon agrees with Shem Tov.j
The discussion on Matt. 23:3 begins on page 2.

I'm doing soooo very good!! L left out the link. OUch!
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Thanks yedida ... Hegg is indeed correct - the Shem Tov rendering is in the future tense, and there is no supporting witnesses (to my knowledge) of its reading ... I thought it was interesting, nonetheless.

 

[pat34lee]

Take time to read it before you criticize.

Arguments from ignorance won't convince anyone.

I don't have to read the book of Mormon to know that it is not of Yahuah. Its history, and that of its writer is enough to do that. The same holds for talmud.

How much do you know about Akiva, who began writing the talmud?

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't have to read the book of Mormon to know that it is not of Yahuah. Its history, and that of its writer is enough to do that. The same holds for talmud.

How much do you know about Akiva, who began writing the talmud?

Why don't you tell me.

 

[ContraMundum]

I agree, MM The fact of the statement where he told his people that "...they sit on the seat of Moses, therefore do as they tell you, just don't be like them..." Lately, I've been really wanting to delve more into this.

Soooo.........I see that CM has a response behind me....

....so to you CM, was most of the Talmud written by then or was there alot more to come. I'm not very familiar with Talmud (it's so vast it's daunting to think about trying to read it so up to the point I've not thought seriously about tryiing), is there a way to tell when you read it, what time period the passage is from (another reason I haven't tried to read it, thinking there is no way to discern this)? I'm showing my ignorance here, but you love me anyway, right?

I don't really want to respond here. Not worth it. Pm me and I'll fill you in on the facts (and the proper English rendering of the text in question)

 

[pat34lee]

Why don't you tell me.

In modern Judaism the oral writings of the rabbis are much more important than even the torah and most of these writings come from Akiva. The Talmud is filled with stories of how great Akiva was. There are stories of every great man of the bible praising Akiva, even such great men as Abraham and Moses and even Adam in the garden of Eden talked about how great Akiva was. Clearly these are fairy tales and made up by Akiva himself.

Akiva made the rabbis into gods and gave all authority not only in earth but heaven also to the rabbis. Akiva was also the one who wrote that Yahweh is merely one of 70 rabbis and must submit to the will of the rabbis.

Akiva was also the one who named Simon Bar Kochba as the Messiah in 132 CE. Akiva saw that many Jews were accepting Yahshua as the promised Messiah and knew he had to do something to stop the movement, so he named Bar Kochba as the messiah, well knowing that believers of Yahshua could not fight in a holy war for a false messiah. The punishment for not fighting against the Romans was imprisonment, confiscation of property and also death.

Akiva set up a 4-man tribunal against believers with himself at the head, and sentenced many of our Jewish brothers and sisters to death. This is why by the second half of the second century CE, there were very few Jewish believers left in society. Akiva also wrote evil lies about Yahshua and called him everything from a warlock to a bastard, to a liar. All this is written in the Talmud.

In modern Judaism, Akiva is acclaimed as the greatest rabbi of all time and is worshipped by his rabbinic followers. No wonder there is so much hatred for Yahshua among orthodox followers today.
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/should_we_follow_the_rabbis.htm
​

 

[anisavta]

Who's Yehuah???

 

[visionary]

Who's Yehuah???

Just another variation of a transliteration of Jehovah.. YHVH.. etc

 

[Steve Petersen]

In modern Judaism the oral writings of the rabbis are much more important than even the torah and most of these writings come from Akiva. The Talmud is filled with stories of how great Akiva was. There are stories of every great man of the bible praising Akiva, even such great men as Abraham and Moses and even Adam in the garden of Eden talked about how great Akiva was. Clearly these are fairy tales and made up by Akiva himself.

Akiva made the rabbis into gods and gave all authority not only in earth but heaven also to the rabbis. Akiva was also the one who wrote that Yahweh is merely one of 70 rabbis and must submit to the will of the rabbis.

Akiva was also the one who named Simon Bar Kochba as the Messiah in 132 CE. Akiva saw that many Jews were accepting Yahshua as the promised Messiah and knew he had to do something to stop the movement, so he named Bar Kochba as the messiah, well knowing that believers of Yahshua could not fight in a holy war for a false messiah. The punishment for not fighting against the Romans was imprisonment, confiscation of property and also death.

Akiva set up a 4-man tribunal against believers with himself at the head, and sentenced many of our Jewish brothers and sisters to death. This is why by the second half of the second century CE, there were very few Jewish believers left in society. Akiva also wrote evil lies about Yahshua and called him everything from a warlock to a bastard, to a liar. All this is written in the Talmud.

In modern Judaism, Akiva is acclaimed as the greatest rabbi of all time and is worshipped by his rabbinic followers. No wonder there is so much hatred for Yahshua among orthodox followers today.
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/should_we_follow_the_rabbis.htm
​

Ever read Deuteronomy 17?

Matthew 18 anyone?

 

[visionary]

Is this the same Akiva you are speaking of??

Akiva ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pat34lee]

Is this the same Akiva you are speaking of??

Akiva ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is the one.

 

[Steve Petersen]

That is the one.

Why don't you read the entire Wiki article, then come back and have a real discussion.

 

[pat34lee]

Ever read Deuteronomy 17?

Matthew 18 anyone?

2 or 3 witnesses? I can oblige you there.

John 16:1-4
All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.

Bar-Kochba believed himself to be the Messiah, and was hailed as such by Rabbi Akiba. His enthusiastic supporters suffered (and inflicted) heavy losses before their final defeat. Christians in the area refused to join the revolt and were persecuted, according to Justin and Eusebius.
Bar-Kochba – Dictionary definition of Bar-Kochba | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

Another letter throws extremely important light on the history of the cleavage between the Jews and the early Christians. These early Christians considered themselves to be good Jews, but since they believed that their Messiah had already come, they could not accept Bar Kochba as the Moshiach, and therefore did not join the national uprising headed by him. In one letter, therefore, we find that Bar Kochba gives harsh instructions to arrest and shackle any Galilean (Christian) who acts treasonably! In fact, the Bar Kochba revolt marked the clear parting of the ways between the Jews and the early Christians. No wonder that the latter had no love for Bar Kochba, who to us, however, is the epitome of a Jewish hero.
Manfred and Anne Lehmann Foundation

However, after 70 A. D., when the Temple was destroyed, and supposedly a small voice (a bat kol) told the Jewish religious leaders that henceforth the House of Hillel would be supreme, the House of Shammai disappeared. The resultant remnant all were of the Hillel persuasion, supposedly, and the result was a new religious "tyranny" which expelled the Nazarenes, which no longer felt it had to tolerate them, and which even pronounced a CURSE upon them!
THE MYSTERIOUS RELATIONSHIP OF THE EARLY NAZARENE CHRISTIANS AND RABBINIC JUDAISM - William F. Dankenbring - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy

Birkat Ha-Minim (I'll let you look this one up)

Gamiliel II felt that Pharisaism need some minor reforms while Akiva felt it was necessary to make a system that gave all power and authority to the rabbis. He brought in the doctrine that the Oral law was given at the same time as the Torah and that Moses, David, etc. were rabbis. He won out over Gamiliel II in a battle that got pretty nasty and deceitful on both sides. With Akiva in charge, eventually they ruled that the rabbis could change Torah if necessary and that a majority of rabbis (all Akiva's buddies) even could supercede the Bat Kol (voice of God). They made a new Greek translation of the Tanach to replace the Septuagint and a new Aramaic Targum (Onkelos), both of which fit Akiva's theology better. They couldn't change the Hebrew version but their commentaries in the Oral law on the Tanach became the final authority. They were able to discard any rabbi's rulings they didn't like. From all this we have the Orthodox Judaism of today.
Nazarenes
​

 

[Steve Petersen]

2 or 3 witnesses? I can oblige you there.

John 16:1-4
All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.

Bar-Kochba believed himself to be the Messiah, and was hailed as such by Rabbi Akiba. His enthusiastic supporters suffered (and inflicted) heavy losses before their final defeat. Christians in the area refused to join the revolt and were persecuted, according to Justin and Eusebius.
Bar-Kochba – Dictionary definition of Bar-Kochba | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

Another letter throws extremely important light on the history of the cleavage between the Jews and the early Christians. These early Christians considered themselves to be good Jews, but since they believed that their Messiah had already come, they could not accept Bar Kochba as the Moshiach, and therefore did not join the national uprising headed by him. In one letter, therefore, we find that Bar Kochba gives harsh instructions to arrest and shackle any Galilean (Christian) who acts treasonably! In fact, the Bar Kochba revolt marked the clear parting of the ways between the Jews and the early Christians. No wonder that the latter had no love for Bar Kochba, who to us, however, is the epitome of a Jewish hero.
Manfred and Anne Lehmann Foundation

However, after 70 A. D., when the Temple was destroyed, and supposedly a small voice (a bat kol) told the Jewish religious leaders that henceforth the House of Hillel would be supreme, the House of Shammai disappeared. The resultant remnant all were of the Hillel persuasion, supposedly, and the result was a new religious "tyranny" which expelled the Nazarenes, which no longer felt it had to tolerate them, and which even pronounced a CURSE upon them!
THE MYSTERIOUS RELATIONSHIP OF THE EARLY NAZARENE CHRISTIANS AND RABBINIC JUDAISM - William F. Dankenbring - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy

Birkat Ha-Minim (I'll let you look this one up)

Gamiliel II felt that Pharisaism need some minor reforms while Akiva felt it was necessary to make a system that gave all power and authority to the rabbis. He brought in the doctrine that the Oral law was given at the same time as the Torah and that Moses, David, etc. were rabbis. He won out over Gamiliel II in a battle that got pretty nasty and deceitful on both sides. With Akiva in charge, eventually they ruled that the rabbis could change Torah if necessary and that a majority of rabbis (all Akiva's buddies) even could supercede the Bat Kol (voice of God). They made a new Greek translation of the Tanach to replace the Septuagint and a new Aramaic Targum (Onkelos), both of which fit Akiva's theology better. They couldn't change the Hebrew version but their commentaries in the Oral law on the Tanach became the final authority. They were able to discard any rabbi's rulings they didn't like. From all this we have the Orthodox Judaism of today.
Nazarenes
​

I am completely familiar with this information. I have been studying this type of thing for 22 years.

My question is, 'so what?'

Christians think they're right, Jews think they're right.

The Talmud is a collection of material from hundreds of teachers over a fairly long period of time. Some show great commonality with early Jewish believers.

If you want to know what the debates were about you have to read the sources from the period.

If you won't hold it against Bar-Kochba for hating Jewish believers, we won't hold it against Martin Luther for hating Jewish non-believers. Deal?

 

[mishkan]

Anti-messianic commentary (in the sense that Messiah has come). That is an important distinction. One big reason for their writing it was to keep Jews from becoming followers of Yahshua.

Statements like this always make me ask, "Have you actually read any of the Talmud?" I mean, not just the hate-on-Jews Christian websites that rip quotes out of context, but the real thing?

In a collection of writings the size of an encyclopedia, there is about enough anti-Yeshua material to fill a thimble... maybe. Overall, the thing has nothing to do with Messianics. It is an exposition on the Torah, the core of which was compiled before Yeshua was even born.

Is it all correct? By no means! But you're just repeating lies to say that it is explicitly contrary to Yeshua.

 

[mishkan]

gibberish that only demonstrates why Gentiles should not dabble in Talmud.

I'll second that vote!

 

[yedida]

2 or 3 witnesses? I can oblige you there.

John 16:1-4
All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.

Bar-Kochba believed himself to be the Messiah, and was hailed as such by Rabbi Akiba. His enthusiastic supporters suffered (and inflicted) heavy losses before their final defeat. Christians in the area refused to join the revolt and were persecuted, according to Justin and Eusebius.
Bar-Kochba – Dictionary definition of Bar-Kochba | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

Another letter throws extremely important light on the history of the cleavage between the Jews and the early Christians. These early Christians considered themselves to be good Jews, but since they believed that their Messiah had already come, they could not accept Bar Kochba as the Moshiach, and therefore did not join the national uprising headed by him. In one letter, therefore, we find that Bar Kochba gives harsh instructions to arrest and shackle any Galilean (Christian) who acts treasonably! In fact, the Bar Kochba revolt marked the clear parting of the ways between the Jews and the early Christians. No wonder that the latter had no love for Bar Kochba, who to us, however, is the epitome of a Jewish hero.
Manfred and Anne Lehmann Foundation

However, after 70 A. D., when the Temple was destroyed, and supposedly a small voice (a bat kol) told the Jewish religious leaders that henceforth the House of Hillel would be supreme, the House of Shammai disappeared. The resultant remnant all were of the Hillel persuasion, supposedly, and the result was a new religious "tyranny" which expelled the Nazarenes, which no longer felt it had to tolerate them, and which even pronounced a CURSE upon them!
THE MYSTERIOUS RELATIONSHIP OF THE EARLY NAZARENE CHRISTIANS AND RABBINIC JUDAISM - William F. Dankenbring - Athenaeum Library of Philosophy

Birkat Ha-Minim (I'll let you look this one up)

Gamiliel II felt that Pharisaism need some minor reforms while Akiva felt it was necessary to make a system that gave all power and authority to the rabbis. He brought in the doctrine that the Oral law was given at the same time as the Torah and that Moses, David, etc. were rabbis. He won out over Gamiliel II in a battle that got pretty nasty and deceitful on both sides. With Akiva in charge, eventually they ruled that the rabbis could change Torah if necessary and that a majority of rabbis (all Akiva's buddies) even could supercede the Bat Kol (voice of God). They made a new Greek translation of the Tanach to replace the Septuagint and a new Aramaic Targum (Onkelos), both of which fit Akiva's theology better. They couldn't change the Hebrew version but their commentaries in the Oral law on the Tanach became the final authority. They were able to discard any rabbi's rulings they didn't like. From all this we have the Orthodox Judaism of today.
Nazarenes
​

If I read your offerings correctly, it seems that the house of Hillel was harsher than Shammai? That's not my understanding of the two. From my research (admittedly limited) Hillel was far more understanding of the letter kills, the Spirit gives life that was later taught by Yeshua. The Bible does support this by the statement from Gamiliel (a grandson) to the Sanhedrin in Acts.