Just as an informational post. After the Temple was destroyed, the priests continued making sacrifices at that location upon the bare rock; as it was the location that was specified in scripture, not the building.
Not so sure about that myself - - -
but like I say, and like the first question in this thread seems to suspect, it seems ultimately all Messianics are to whatever degree dispensational. God certainly has the right to abrogate as he pleases, though it may or may not put us in a difficult position to defend sometimes.
Scripture please.Just as an informational post. After the Temple was destroyed, the priests continued making sacrifices at that location upon the bare rock; as it was the location that was specified in scripture, not the building.
Which ones did He abrogate? Please give the scriptural references so we can check them ourselves. These are things we need to know.....
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.Which ones did He abrogate? Please give the scriptural references so we can check them ourselves. These are things we need to know.....
Of course.Scripture please.
Deu 12:5 כי אם־אל־המקום אשׁר־יבחר יהוה אלהיכם מכל־שׁבטיכם לשׂום את־שׁמו שׁם לשׁכנו תדרשׁו ובאת שׁמה׃
But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put His name there, even unto His habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come;
Deu 12:6 והבאתם שׁמה עלתיכם וזבחיכם ואת מעשׂרתיכם ואת תרומת ידכם ונדריכם ונדבתיכם ובכרת בקרכם וצאנכם׃
and thither ye shall bring your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill-offerings, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock;
Well the laws Adam had differ from Noah, at least capital punishment and the eating of animals. Laws of God appear to change according to His timing throughout the historical record of the bible do they not?
Not so sure about that myself - - -
but like I say, and like the first question in this thread seems to suspect, it seems ultimately all Messianics are to whatever degree dispensational. God certainly has the right to abrogate as he pleases, though it may or may not put us in a difficult position to defend sometimes.
Originally Posted by SGM4HIM
The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.
This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.
The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.
Yes, there is more than one Covenant. The New one is superior- the NT says so. The Old one was a tutor, and could not achieve the same things. I really don't have the time to go over this yet again. Search the archives.
Yes, there is also something the NT calls the "Law of Christ" (Or Torah of Moschiach if you insist) and it is not the same as the Mosaic Torah on every point. So, yes, there is a Torah for all mankind and one for the Jews but they have the same source. .
I know it is. Not all things done historically mean they are scripturally supported or right though.That is historical info...
I am not seeing in your scripture quotes, where this place, is the only thing mentioned for these offerings to be made sacrifices by the priests? I asked about the sacrifices of the priests which you mentionedOf course.
With Adam, there does seem to be a concept of previews in the actions he does - things mentioned in the Mosaic - and what we do now in the New Covenant.How can the law be added? Did not Adam keep it, long before Abraham was born? Did he not, in fact, keep it until he kept it no more, and was exiled from the garden?
Eschatology makes a world of difference as it concerns the reasons why others choose the views they do.People mix up millennial (3rd temple, perfect form of this world) and post-millennial (new heavens and new earth, no temple, New Jerusalem) all the time . . . many are insulted or alienated by the very idea of these being two separate future ages. Especially Amillennialists
Gxg (G²);63515734 said:With Adam, there does seem to be a concept of previews in the actions he does - things mentioned in the Mosaic - and what we do now in the New Covenant.
Sacrifices immediately come to mind...for all sacrifices were meant to point to Christ as the ultimate sacrifice...
With sacrifices, it seems that the means by which they occurred within the OT do not apply in the same way as they do in the New Covenant. The sacrifices of the Lord are now our own bodies----whereas the animal sacrifices only pointed to what Christ was going to do and what it is that He desires of us.Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
Romans 3:24-26 /Romans 3
Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:16-18
Hebrews 13:16One would be in error, IMHO, saying that any kind of animal sacrifice (if done in a memorial of what the Lord had done) had to be done in the manner that the Mosaic Law outlined since that era has ended....and it was transformed.
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Hebrews 13:15-17
1 Peter 2:5
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stonerejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:4-6
Romans 12:1
[ A Living Sacrifice ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of Gods mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to Godthis is your true and proper worship.
On the part concerning burnt offerings/sacrifices, Jesus noted this to a degree during his earthly ministry. For why else did Jesus note in HIS OWN Time (Matthew 9:9-13, Mark 2:13-17, Luke 5:27-32) when it came to his quoting what the scriptures say on Sacrifices in Psalm 51:16-19...in line with I Samuel 15:22-23..when it came His making clear that what God desired was Mercy and NOT Sacrifice? Christ was very radical to choose someone such as Matthew the Tax Collector as one of his disciples....seeing how well known they were for being corrupt/wild in their living....and when Jesus visited Matthew, at the cost of making connections, Jesus hurt his own reputation at first. The Pharisees tried to question Christ by saying he could never be a righteous man by choosing to associate with such immoral people....and yet, Jesus made clear that they were off since they were more concerned with their own OUTER appearance of holiness than with helping people, with criticism than encouraging, with outward respectability than practical help.
Jesus made clear that God was concerned for all people --including sinful and hurting ones (counter to how many of the Jews often acted when making sacrifices and yet mistreating Gentiles)....and Jesus made clear that God was more concerned with the Heart. More than outward appearance, God wanted inward REPENTENCE. Its the reason why Jesus quoted Psalm 51:16-17 when it came to the Psalmists ---in a time of GREAT SIN---made clear that the expression of a sacrifice didn't matter if the heart was not contrite and broken.
Jesus also made certain that he quoted Hosea 6:6 --in line with what the Prophet Isaiah said to Israel in Isaiah 1:1---that sacrifces alone were never God's heart since God desired MERCY and not sacrifice. The prophet Hosea began his ministry during the end of the prosperous but morally declining reigh of Jeroboan II of Israel---prophesing until shortly after the fall of Samaria in 722 B.C (II Kings 17). His role was to show the northern kingdom how unfaithful they had been to God, their "husband" and "provider" and had married themselves to Baal and the gods of Cananna.
The way the people made sacrifices to false gods and tried to appease God with more sacrifices to him would be like a man finding out his wife had an affair---and then having the wife try to cook breakfast/dinner more or go on dates with her husband and give more sex. The other activities would be meaningless if she continued having an affair---or thought that her husaband wanted more and yet she didn't love Him...and Hosea tried to make clear that a religious ritual is only helpful if it is carried out with an attitude of love/ obediance for God....BUT if not having those elements, it will be simply mockery of God. God didn't want the Israelities' rituals as mucha s their hearts....
As Isaiah said,1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams
The context of Isaiah's words makes sense in light of how he lived in idolatrous Israel...a prophet during the time when the original nation of Israel had been divided into two kingdoms---Israel in the north and Judah in the South. The entire chapter of Isaiah 1 goes into great detail discussing how God was unhappy with his people....and as Isaiah 1 makes clear, God was unhappy with thier sacrifices while not revoking the system of sacrifices he had initiated with Moeses. Instead, God was calling for sincerefaith and devotion. For as said before, the leaders were carefully making the traditional sacrifices/offerings at Holy Celebrations but still remaining unfaithful to God in their hearts. For sacrifices were to be an OUTWARD sign of their INWARD Faith in God...but outward signs became empty because not inward faith existed. The people continued to offer sacrifices because they had come to place more faith in the rituals of their religion than in the God they worshipped.Isaiah 1:10-12
I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
One can find more on sacrifices via what Isaiah said in Isaiah 19:20-22, Isaiah 43:23-25, Isaiah 65:6-8, and Isaiah 66:2-4
Ezekiel is another good one, as seen in Ezekiel 20:27-29 , Ezekiel 20:39-41 and Ezekiel 44:14-16, Ezekiel 46:23-24.
And with Jeremiah, one can find more on what he was discussing fully with Sacrifices in Jeremiah 6:19-21 , Jeremiah 17:25-27 ,
God often made clear that sacrifices for its own sake were never appropriate if they were done in an end of themselves---for at that point, one would be lacking a broken/contrite heart in the process (God's Goal) and all one would be doing is ritualism. Its why the Jews were caught off guard before the exile--as they thought they were doing everything right and yet God was not in it.
Adam's sons were raised in the adominition of the Lord---and as God required/made clear, they were to offer up to Him. . Cain and Abel had constrasting occupations/differing kinds of offering to God----both being what God commanded since both offerings are recognizable parts of the later Levitical system: for Cain's offering of the fruit of the ground is in Deuteronomy 26:2 (an offering expressing consecration), and for Abel's offering of the firstborn of his flock, that can be found in Deuteronomy 15:19-23 (a kind of peace offering, a meal in God's prescence). At no point does the Bible suggest that offering work automatically...as if the worshipper's faith and contrition did not matter. For as the Torah makes clear, God desires BROKENESS/Willful humility in order for us to come to Him.....
This is a teaching throughout the scriptures----especially as it relates to how often God said he RESISTED the proud---but gave grace to the Humble ( Numbers 12:2-4 , 2 Samuel 22:27-29 , 1 Kings 21:28-29, 2 Kings 22:18-20, 2 Chronicles 12:6-8 , Psalm 18:26-28, Psalm 25:8-10, Psalm 149:3-5, Proverbs 3:34, Isaiah 66:1-3, Luke 18:13-15, James 4:5-7 , 1 Peter 5:4-6, etc )Psalm 51:16-18
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17 The sacrifices of God are [a] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
And with Cain's fundamentally bad heart, this can be seen in his resentment toward his brother and in his uncoopertative answers to God in the rest of the pasage in Genesis 4. He chose not to love God...or His neighbor. Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his wicked deeds, whereas Abel demonstated a pious heart by his righteous deeds---and His wholeheartely doing as God commanded. That Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and was COMMENDED as righteous for that reason, cannot be ignored. As the Word says in Genesis 4:1-12, Matthew 23:35, Hebrews 11:4, and 1 John 3:11-13
To focus on the sacrifice itself and not on the heart being transformed---as the New Covenant focuses upon--may miss the point.
__________________
Technically, when it comes to how the Lord did things, He also made it a focus to place emphasis onto Himself - and show where all things were meant to point to HIM. This is the entire concept of the Law of Christ, which many sadly do not understand and show ignorance of as if it was never in existence when scripture is exceptionally plain on the matter.The gospel was not about Torah, it was about Yeshua, which the Torah reveals but not in full. Yeshua testified, taught, used the Torah to witness about Himself, not about Torah.
Why would he teach observance to commands that he knew would be inoperable for over 2000 years?
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 /1 Corinthians 9
Serving All Men
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[] but under law toward Christ[d]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[e] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Yeshua and the Father already noted where those things were completed when examining the reality behind what occurred with sacrifices in the first place that dealt with atonement. If those were not done away with, then who they point to in anticipation has not arrived yet - for Yeshua was the goal behind those sacrifices. And it's why the early body of believers did not continue to make those types of sacrifices after His Resurrection.But He never did say He wanted the one instead of the other. Nor did He say that the other was abrogated, only that it was secondary.
True God hates that, but 1.you've given another false witness. You may have had that experience within a congregation as none are perfect. But as a whole there are many statements by these "abc" organizations that address this very issue of secondclass citizenry which prove you dead wrong. 1. So please stop with the false witness and misrepresentations of Messianic Jewish organizations and it's members.
That would be against the rules you keep using against others here. You keep claiming who we are and are not, who is who and 2.you continually misrepresent much about Messianic Judaism as a whole. By your own admissions you have no need for the historically established form of Messianic Judaism. 3.Your position is very subversive, is it no wonder you fight much in here? The forums are named Messianic Judaism but you deny the historical established community? 4.If you want to be apart of MJ maybe trying to "join" the established community would be the correct method, instead of coming in from the outside and seeking to turn it on it's head. One method seeks to join with another in love, the other seeks to divide and conquer. You tell me which of those God hates?
The gospel was not about Torah, it was about Yeshua, which the Torah reveals but not in full. Yeshua testified, taught, used the Torah to witness about Himself, not about Torah.
Why would he teach observance to commands that he knew would be inoperable for over 2000 years?
I am pro-Torah, but I'm seeing how dispensational Messianics can be. Adam and Noah and Enoch and Shem and/or Melchizedek and Abraham and everyone up to Moses apparently kept a different law than we do, which is or can be unsettling. But the opposite position, that there have been no changes at all, ever, can it be true ?
Here are some quotes, interpret them how you wish. God could certainly have ordained these apparent changes or innovations through David, of course.
Quotes:
Levitical priests served for 25 years, from age 25 to age 50, according to Numbers 8:24,25.
According to I Chronicles chapter 15, 16:4-6, 37-43, David rearranged the Levitical priesthood into 24 courses (orders); he assigned 16 courses to Eleazer, and 8 courses to Ithamar. This rearrangement was chartered because of a population explosion in David's reign.
(my comment: notice that it is not accredited to God. Are these rearrangements ever accredited to God? He could have done it, but does it say he did?)
Levitical Priesthood (link)
Compare:
This is that which belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service in the work of the tent of meeting:
Numbers 8:24
The Levites thirty years old or more were counted, and the total number of men was thirty-eight thousand. 1 Chronicles 23:3
According to the last instructions of David, the Levites were counted from those twenty years old or more. 1 Chronicles 23:27
Numbers 4:3
Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the tent of meeting.
Numbers 4:2-4/
Numbers 8:23-25Numbers 8
19 From among all the Israelites, I have given the Levites as gifts to Aaron and his sons to do the work at the tent of meeting on behalf of the Israelites and to make atonement for them so that no plague will strike the Israelites when they go near the sanctuary.
20 Moses, Aaron and the whole Israelite community did with the Levites just as the LORD commanded Moses. 21 The Levites purified themselves and washed their clothes. Then Aaron presented them as a wave offering before the LORD and made atonement for them to purify them. 22 After that, the Levites came to do their work at the tent of meeting under the supervision of Aaron and his sons. They did with the Levites just as the LORD commanded Moses.
23 The LORD said to Moses, 24 This applies to the Levites: Men twenty-five years old or more shall come to take part in the work at the tent of meeting, 25 but at the age of fifty, they must retire from their regular service and work no longer. 26 They may assist their brothers in performing their duties at the tent of meeting, but they themselves must not do the work. This, then, is how you are to assign the responsibilities of the Levites.
Gxg (G²);60656773 said:....We can see that in the example of David, who was a type of Christ as both Prophet/Priest and King....and whose Tent/Tabernacle was established according to Acts 15 when it came to showing the ways that a Non-Levitie reorganized worship for all (Jew and Gentile). There was a thread on the subject I was reminded of, entitled The Sukkah of David and the Davidic Covenant. With David being a priest, that doesn't mean he acted exactly as one within the Levitical priesthood....and the same goes for the sons of David who were known to be priests as well (even though the line of Judah had no right to the Davidic priesthood.
And on the issue of David's sons being priests:
2 Samuel 8:17-18
Benaiah son of Jehoiada was over the Kerethites and Pelethites; and Davids sons were priests.
If saying David's sons were priests, if correct (as the textual evidence seems unclear), one would have to suppose that membership into the priesthood was not limited to Levites in the time of DAvid. David already possessed significant power over the priesthood...with many saying he was a priest akin to Melchizedek (i.e. the king having the priest/prophet dynamic going to mirror the Messiah, who was also a High Priest)--and although Zadok was indeed the high priest according to the Word, in replacement of Abithar (more discussed here in #45 as well as in 1 Kings 2:26-28 /, 1 Kings 1:44-46 , 1 Kings 2:34-36 , 2 Samuel 20:24-26 , 2 Samuel 15:34-36 , 2 Samuel 8:16-18 , 2 Samuel 15:23-25 , 1 Chronicles 15:10-12 , 1 Chronicles 24:2-4 , 1 Chronicles 29:21-23 ), it's possible David was also priestly in a different sense since David did many things that one would think only Zadok was allowed to do as a Levitical Highpriest.
And as it concerns the concept of others existing who were priests as well long before the Levitical priesthood came up, I'm reminded of Jethro being a prominent example, as he was a priest himself/righteous man according to Exodus 2:15-17 /Exodus 2 , Exodus 3 and Exodus 18 ..and alongside him, I'm also reminded of the example Job in Job 1:4-6 / Job 1 who'd often offer up prayers/sacfices on behalf of his children as a regular custom--a priestly function, just like it was with Melchizedek in Genesis 14. Many have often noted that Job lived in the time of the patriarchs..
It's up to the Lord to decide when/where, as He's the one who makes the rules and it's not to us to question them anymore than an employee has the right to question his boss because the boss decides to allow someone else to do something they didn't sign up for in their contract. Either the employee can assume they're in the same category as the one who is treated differently--or assume there's special treatment due to reasons they don't understand...or they can throw a fit/demand the boss treats them the same. ..or simply realize has differing requirements for others depending on what He desires and has the right to make allowance when he so chooses. In many ways, it goes back to what Yeshua noted in Matthew 20:2 with others getting angry for getting paid the same as those they felt worked "less" for it (even though the latter folks got paid according to the amount the boss set for them)--and the Boss let them know He was the focus, not them...and it was HIS money to do with as He pleased.
Gxg (G²);60664551 said:As Yeshua was called the Son of David (as a Messianic Title) and expected to restore the Davidic Kingdom in new ways, IMHO, it would not be surprising to see Him act as David did.
David was a KING and a PRIEST ---and as the Lord made clear to his people in Exodus ( Exodus 19:5-7 ) that he intended for Israel to be a NATION of KINGS/PRIESTS, one must wonder if the only way to accomplish that was to have others patterned after the type of King/Priest David was.....as that's exactly what Christ --the SON of David and the fulfillment of the prophecy of the seed of David (2 Samuel 7:14-16), confirmed in Matthew 1 and other places ( (Matthew 15:22, Matthew 20:30, Mark 10:47, Mark 12:35-37, Acts 4:12, etc ) ---did when he came down and made us into a nation of Kings and Priests.
The same promise the Messiah gave to Israel when he delivered them was repeated once again in the End of all things.....with the Lord noting that His people will NEVER perish due to their nature as priests of God just as Yeshua is.Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5-7
Shalom
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
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