Messianics and communion

http://www.tzaddikim.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37

Here's a link - Just what I've considered about it.

Humble Opinions,
Valid Name

flyfishing said:

No i meant when jesus dipped the sop and gave it to JESUS..

Sorry i did not see the distinction..

Are most messianics true jews or gentiles converted??

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The pieces that are dipped are pieces from the middle matzah. Judas didn't give it to Jesus, he dipped in the bowl at the same time as Jesus. I am not sure what you are looking for, but this was just Jesus way of letting the other know who the betrayer was.

I too understand the difference betwen the love feast and communion, and was not making any point between the two in my post above. My point was that Yeshuas instruction was to remember him in the one special piece of Bread, the middle Matzah, whenever we observe the Passover. He was not refering to every piece of bread we ever eat in our lives, and he didn't tell them to observe the passover every week, month quarter, or in anyway other than what the Lord had given. Communion, whether weekly, monthly or quarterly, is a tradition that man came up with. Cor 11 shows that it may have begun very early even in the late apostolic times.

I have taken part in comminion in various settings, while serving in churches that were Luthern, Methodist, Pentecostal,independent Charismatic, catholic. I have officiated communion at home when I felt it was needed for our family.

The thing that I want to make very clear, and that I think you are not hearing, is that men invented the ritual of communion based on the passover, but an accurate reading of the scriptures makes it abundantly clear that Yeshua did not institute communion, but directed his followers to see Him in the yearly passover as the one who was fulilling it through his blood and body and our release from bondage.

I was not raised in a Jewish setting. I am not sure of my heritage. There are some little indications that my grandfather was a Jew who hid his faith due to persecution, but I don't know or sure and none remains alive to ask. All I an say is that when I was baptised in the spirit, the Lord took me deep into the OT and showed me the eternal continuity between old and New and how important and foundational the old is. Each year, the spirit brings us closer to a Jewish form of faith, Touching on other things that we have held onto that were not from him, or had some pagan connection, and we have repented and submitted further to the spirits work.

Many people stop their spiritual growth too soon feeling they have received it all. Some at the first level they began as a child in sunday school, some at their baptism, some others when they are baptised in the spirit or when they get tongues, ect. They find a place where they feel that they have gone as far as you can in this life, and they settle in and become comfortable. For me, I am never comfortable. I am always discovering that I have left the path and got myself tangles in the brush and bramble, and so I call out to the Lord to get me back on the path, and so, Little by little, I have shed the traditions of the church and have taken the guidance of the Lord through his word and the spirit, who always agree with one another by the way. So that now and for years, I have been Messianic, regardless of what my parents might have been. I am not a christian. I am a biblical Messianic believer in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua.

Edit by Charles:

To clarify so that there is no misunderstanding: When I said that we have had a comminion in our family home setting, we do not see it in terms like that of the church or trans sustantiation. We see it in terms of a covenantal meal, renewing our faith in our covenant head Yeshua, who made it possible for us to become the sons of God through adoption.

It is a very old eastern custom to break bread and share wine with someone with whom you have made an eternal pomise. It confirms your promises to each other. Sometines two parties would also plant a vinyard or fruit trees in a common plot of land as a sign or take part of each others name. Think of Abram who after entering into Covenent with God, was given all the lands of Israel, and whos name changed from Abram to Abraham, the Hey (H) sound taken from Gods name and added to Abrams, and from this time on God is known as "The god of Abraham". Renewing the covenant, not eating the Lords flesh and body to absorb his escence. I hope this is understood.

CIF

flyfishing said:

Charles I meant to say that the sop was given to judas by Jesus, something i understood was a sign of favor as the gesture had a meaning of some kind in the jewish heritage..

As far as the comments on communion not being instituted by Jesus i disagree.. In i cor 11;23 Paul said he recieved those instructions by DIVINE REVELATION.. he also said his whole preaching message was recieved that way and did not confer with flesh and blood until after a space of three years...

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Yes Paul did receive directly from the Lord the events of the Passover, and that is what he quotes to them, almost as if he were reading it from the text of Lukes' narative. But that is not what they are doing.

Yeshua told us to remember him in that Passover setting. What the Corrithians were doing was something more often, which they called the Lords supper. Is that different? Look at this verse:

[20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. [21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

In the first part of the verse Paul says that what they are doing IS NOT the way to observe this Lords supper. In the second part he states that it is a supper and some have passed on from eating to drinking and have become filled with wine and drunk before others have even eaten. Now I ask you, do you believe that a communion service would fill your hunger, or provide you with enough wine to make you drunk? Certainly not. So Paul is indicating that this is a supper, and that it is food and wine enough for all to be satisfied. This is not communion.

In Judaism there is the custom of breaking bread, which is Table fellowship a key element in the spiritual life of a Jew. In Acts 15 the Gentiles are given speciic directions to follow so as to be able to attend the synagogues and study the Torah, and share in table fellowship without being an offense to the Jews with whom they would be sharing.

The Corinthians were making a feast, perhaps more often, and calling it inappropriately the Lords supper, using key element of the passover. Paul is telling them that this misuse is casing them harm, sickness and death.

Paul DOES tell them to keep the Passover. All blievers are to keep the passover.And to do so with Yeshua in sight as the fulfillment of it. LOOK:

[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

His reference is to keep the Passover, and the feast of unleavened bread, and to purify ourselves of sin before we do.
Paul writes three letters to the Corinthians, because they are doing things wrong. This is a disfunctional congregation. They are also trying to observe a possible proto ommunion and doing so incorrectly causing harm to themselves. It is very likely that these former (and still in part) Pagans we christianizing the pagan ritual of eating the flesh and blood of the diety they worship as was done in the Pagan cultures. They are adding a coating of christian paint to a pagan practice that has no foundation in word of God.

Paul says all scripture is inspired by God and good for the establishment of doctrine reproof and training in righteousness. II Tim 3:16 And Communion is not in those scriptures. Therefore we must view it as first and formost a Pagan adaptation. It feels right to the christian to do it, because he has lost sight of its origins and does not care what the Bible says, as long as it is church tradition. He will acept it, beause for as long as he can remember it has ben one that way.

The same is true of some of the features of Judaism. Some are man made. For me, if they are not biblical then I am not bound by them.

CIF

In my post above I added bold to the text in verse 8 and I just discovered that it had deleted that portion for some reason.

Flyfishing, Paul told believers to keep the Passover, but to do it correctly and without a heart full of malice and sinfulness.

[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

flyfishing said:

Charles we discussed this point that the LORDS supper and the love feasts were two distinct events mentioned in 1 cor 11..

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There are Love feasts and the Lords table. If we are discussing the Lords Table is that not this communion?

flyfishing said:

Charles we discussed this point that the LORDS supper and the love feasts were two distinct events mentioned in 1 cor 11..

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If communion was such an important doctrine for the church why does it not appear in any other place in the bible?

I asked a question above, Which you have not responded to; If this passage is about communion why are some eating and had their fill and gone on to drinking even to the point of being drunk, and others still are hungry. Does ommunion supply enough food to fill ones hunger and enough wine to make them all drunk?


Now I would like to ask you a question which is separate in a way but related?

Why do Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th?

I have gone to some extent to answer your questions. Might you take a few minutes to respond to mine?

CIF

But what if I could show you from scripture that the date was known?

December 25th was not a worldly holiday. It was and remains the kingpin Pagan holiday.

flyfishing said:

charles i have already shared that i feel Jesus ordained communion..You do not see it that way..Lets agree to disagree ok.. Shalom..

christmas on dec 25 is the traditional date.. Until someone gives me a definitive date with factual proof i will continue to celebrate such.. or until Jesus tells me when his birthday is. Somehow i dont think he minds that i give spiritual emphasis to a wordly holiday..

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These provide proofs from the scriptures (OT & NT) as to the date of Messiah's birth....

Henaynei said:

Somebody looking for this??​

These provide proofs from the scriptures (OT & NT) as to the date of Messiah's birth....

The Truth about Christmas​

or​

On What Day Was Jesus Born?​

or​

Jesus' Real Birthday​

Enjoy ​

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Shalom Henaynei,

Hows things in Israel?

Thanks for the links. Actually I was able to come to the same dates but by a different route. You see, as you know by Levitical law a man must be between 30 and 50 years old to serve in the temple. Yeshua was going to serve as high priest for us. He is baptised in Yarden just at the time of his 30th birthday. We know also that this was during the season of Teshuvah because of the message that John is preaching. It is the central theme of this season before the fall feast days. Before a man can begin his ministry there is a laying on of hands a Mikvah and God anoints them. So Yeshua is baptised and filled with the spirit and goes into the wilderness for 40 days.When he returns he goes to his home town and is called to make Alyah, to be honored by reading and commenting from the scrolls. This is typical for a mans birthday or especially since he is also asked to give comment, it would be or the begining of his ministry. The Jews at this time used the Triennial Torah cycle readings. The prescribed reading for the Sabath 40 days after the begining of Sukkot (Tabernales) is Isaiah 61. And that is exactly the scripture that he reads, "Behold the spirit of the lord is upon me...."
Piecing all this together we can see that Yeshua was born on the first day of Tabernacles, Tishri 15. And in the year he was born it was a Sabbath. Yeshua is Lord of the Sabbath.


Now it is interesting as well that when he was born the towns were filled with people. But we know that this is beause it was a festival time. There is no room in the inn, but they are offered a place in a Manger. Manger in the Greek also means stall, and stall is used also for booth. Tabernacles is the feast of booths. How appropriate that Yeshua would be born in a Sukka, in fulillment of the feast of Gods dwelling with us as he did in the wilderness when all of Israel lived in termporary booths.

Tabernacles is an 8 day festival. Yeshua was born on the first day, which in that year was a Sabbath. I suspect that mary labored the day before and just as shabbath came she delivered and ceased from her labors. On the last day of the feast, we have Simchat Torah, rejoicing in Torah. And Yeshua is the living Torah. On the eighth day he would be circumcised and become a son of the covenant. So on the 8th day of the feast the living torah Yeshua becomes the fulness of Torah in the nation of Israel, the promise of which Torah pointed.

The meaning of Tabernacles prophetically points to the time that God comes and lives with us. And the scriptures verify the literal fulfillment of it in his birth and also points to his kingdom when he once again dwells with us. all these scriptural connections are there if you have that Torah foundation. The Gentile church didn't. But over and above that, they desired greatly to set themselves apart from Judaism and to take the Jewish messiah with them, and so the festival celebrating the birth of the Roman sun God Mithra on Dec 25th was christianized, which gave the Gentiles a separation from the Jews and even excluded Messianics who would not embrace the Pagan days, because God had said, "You shall not worship me in the way that the Pagans worship their gods for I am a holy God."

CIF

flyfishing said:

Interesting reading.. I have heard the theorys which are more Biblical butno actual 100% definite date...

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Now you have one - Tishri 15, the first day of Sukkot/Tabernacles - which this year is Sept 30th (www.hebcal.com)

One of the biblical themes of Sukkot is HaShem dwelling with us.....

flyfishing said:

Hey thats pretty close to my birthday.. I knew actually it was in the neighborhood.

BUT as i stated earlier there is no possible way to say what is the actual date ..A very close estimate yes. BUT no way is anyone going to tell when CHRIST WAS ACTUALLY BORN.... What if mary and elizabeth were each three days late??? Or three days early???

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The season of Sukkot/Tabernacles is a whole lot closer and more meaningful than Mithras's b-day.
1) it is ordained by G-d to honor and obey G-d - not based on a pagan idol
2) the theme of Sukkot is that G-d would dwell with us
3) maybe one of the reasons that He made it 8 days was to give us the "window" - BTW - a birth ordained by HaShem is not going to "be late" - no way, no how....
4) another point, IF G-d thought Yeshua's b-date was important enough to make a fuss over surely He would have ordained a specific feast to remember it - again Sukkot, not Mithras day, fits the bill....

flyfishing said:

Interesting reading.. I have heard the theorys which are more Biblical butno actual 100% definite date...

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The biblical principle is " In the face of two or three witnesses a thing will be established". We have shown you three different ways of coming to the same date directly from what is given in the scriptures. There is more than enough evidence here to establish a date that any court would be willing to issue a new birth certificate or Yeshua.

I believe the problem here is that when a person becomes part of a system, particularly a long standing system with firm traditions, and adhearance to these become part of what you must believe in order to protect you eternal life, then even the hardest facts will fail to displace the traditions. There is an unmentioned process where what you believe and profess in religion become a part of your salvation. If you doubt the tradition you endanger your secure salvation.

People who are christians call me a legalist, and say that I have lost my salvation because I try to live my life according to Gods instructions, all the while they themselves adhear fervently to church traditions that are sometimes in direct violation of the commandments Yeshua told us to keep and to teach others.

CIF

flyfishing said:

Hey thats pretty close to my birthday.. I knew actually it was in the neighborhood.

BUT as i stated earlier there is no possible way to say what is the actual date ..A very close estimate yes. BUT no way is anyone going to tell when CHRIST WAS ACTUALLY BORN.... What if mary and elizabeth were each three days late??? Or three days early???

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But Flyfishing, The Christians church did come up with a date that it stands by, DEC 25th, same day all the Pagan Gods were born.

flyfishing said:

Question.. How many major feasts are unfullfilled?? Someone once told me that they believed CHRIST would return on the feast of trumpets i think it was because this was the only feast they saw unfullfilled by CHRIST.. Is this true???

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First: with what Henaynei has already said above concider this also:

Yeshua fulilled the passover exactly on the date of the prophetic feast, at the exact same hour that the lamb in th temple was slaughtered.

He arose in exact fulfillment of the feast of first fruits, being the first fruits of all who will be resurrected through Faith in him.

He sent the spirit to us to establish and fulfill the Renewed covenant on the exact day that the First covenant was given to Moshe, Pentecost, Shavuot.

Everything in His life was appointed prophetically by God. His birth also was appointed for the first day of Sukkot, Tishri 15, and his becoming a son of the covenant through circumcision on the final and 8th day of the feast.

Nothing is left to chance with God. How do you think the wise men from the east knew when and where to look or Messiah? They understood the scriptures. The Maggi were part of the Jews who stayed behind in babylon Maggi = Rabbi.

Even his death was foretold in detail. From the cross Yeshua calls to them standing around "My God My God, why have you forsaken me". Did God foresake him really? No. The writings of the scriptures in Hebrew are known by their opening line. For example Bershit, (Genesis) mean in the beginning.
What Yeshua called out was Psalm 22, which is a vivid depiction of the Messiahs death by crucifixion. He was saying to the people, "Look I am fulfilling the prophecy before your eyes. I am the Messiah, Have faith in me."The Jews standing there knew exactly what he meant. They knew the word. But it goes right over the heads of the church.

Flyfishing, Tishri 15 is the prophetic day set aside for the birth of Messiah. If he was not born on that day, then he was not the Messiah. Because Messiah fulfills all the prophecies concerning him.

In answer to your question about which feast days are fulfilled, really all seven of them. Trumpets you can see fulfilled by the angelic chorus proclaiming the arrival of Messiah at his birth, and Atonement was fulfilled when he entered the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Tabernacle to apply his blood upon the mercy seat. He is now our high priest as well as our King.

Its all there in the Tanahk

CIF