Messianic Rabbis

[brentsbaby612]

I've been looking into all the congregations in my area. Do all messianic congregations call their pastor Rabbi? What about the verse:
8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. ?
I've never liked how catholic's call their priest "father", but is calling yourself rabbi any different? I was just curious of everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[iitb]

If the title Rabbi simply meant "teacher," as I've seen at least one Messianic Pastor claim, it wouldn't bug me. However, there is some serious training/study required to be a Rabbi, and I feel that these guys are laying claim to a title they haven't earned.

 

[Henaynei]

I am not sure what the leader of a church chould be called, I guess each denomination determins that.

However, the leader of a synagogue, Rabbinic or Messianic, is called a Rabbi, IF they have gone through the requsite training and study, as Justin mentioned.

Just as in the church, there are people who take for themselves titles they have not earned so that they can claim knowledge and honor they have not earned. This cheapens the positions and titles of all, and is to be shunned and rejected when ever it is found.

 

[ShirChadash]

Seems to me, the leader of a church that identifies itself as a church and is Christian... should be called a "pastor". Many people preach and they aren't necessarily the one overseeing a local church-body. Honestly, pastoring and preaching are, and should be viewed as, two separate giftings and stations IMO.

Rabbi? No one should claim that title that hasn't legitmately, officially earned it -- ITA with the above two posts.

Re: the verses you cited, it seems to me that Yeshua was dealing more with a heart-condition of pride/ego/place and status. Some people use their learning to intellectually "bully" others, throwing their figurative weight around, relishing the status and place of one who is "learned"... this makes me think of the phrase, "love builds up; knowledge puffs up." And I think it was the haughtiness Yeshua was warning against more than the title or the learning or the responsibility of being a teacher. JMO, chi-ching.

 

[simchat_torah]

You specifically asked about the leader of a 'church'... this should never be a 'rabbi'. A Rabbi is one who is trained in Jewish theology. To claim that title is deceptive if one is not Jewish or rabbinically trained as such.

I also find it interesting that christians will deny all forms of Jewish heritage except when it is convenient to be derrogatory. For example, christians will claim that the 'new testament' was written in Greek, yet they will toss in a random Hebrew word in order to make a derrogatory statement:

8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 

[simchat_torah]

I voted 'preacher' because a church by simplistic defintion can not have a Rabbi.

A synagogue on the other hand is an entirely different story...

 

[Mikhael]

I suppose the question then turns to - How does one define a synagogue? Reformers don't have a synagogue, they have Temples and their leaders are called Rabbis. As Simchat said, a Rabbi is one who is trained in Jewish Theology. It doesn't stop there however. By definition a Rabbi is one who has mastered the knowledge of halacha. Even Reform Rabbis must know halacha, they just choose to deny it's validity for today. Messianic "Rabbis" on the other hand that are ordained by the likes of UMJC or MJAA do not make Halacha the main issue of they're studies. Instead Christian theology is taught primarily. You learn about some Jewish roots but the main thrust of what defines Judaism, Torah (written AND oral) is not dealt with as a focus.

The Hebrew word Rav means great. Sure, there are those that say it only means teacher, but it's far more than just a teacher. It is someone you come to with halachic questions like when is it permitted to start davening in the morning. MJ's don't typically daven shacharis regularly. I have as yet to hear of a MJ congregation that has morning minyan. I feel that the leaders of the MJ congregations should also be called pastors.

Be well,
Mikha'el

 

[brentsbaby612]

Whoa, opps... Out of habit I said church in the poll. Church, shul, temple,...whatever.
So can a messianic congregation not be called a church?

I voted 'preacher' because a church by simplistic defintion can not have a Rabbi.

Are not all believers the church of Christ/Yeshua(not the denomination)?

Honestly, pastoring and preaching are, and should be viewed as, two separate giftings and stations IMO.

Really?! excuse my stupidity, but why?


ummm...Is there a way you can make it were people can change there vote?

 

[ShirChadash]

Honestly, pastoring and preaching are, and should be viewed as, two separate giftings and stations IMO.

Really?! excuse my stupidity, but why?

I wasn't meaning to confuse -- my point here is that pastoring (seeing to the needs of people, overseeing a church -- and I do mean church -- and congregation) is often different from preaching/teaching; not all pastors are gifted to preach nor do all preachers have a pastor's heart. Some are called and gifted to do both, and more, of course. I'm thinking more of the giftings and inclinations of people... and I have seen many a pastor who is simply not a gifted teacher but is a fabulous pastor/shepherd of people nonetheless. Similarly, a prophetically-gifted person may be called and able to teach or exhort effectively, but it is a rare prophetic personality that truly has a heart to pastor a congregation and run a "church", as well.

As re: your original question... I would still say... Pastor for a church; Rabbi for a Jewish synagogue, provided the man is truly, legitimately a Rabbi. For a Messianic congregation... if a man was trained as a pastor in a Christian seminary, then he is a pastor/preacher/etc. -- NOT a Rabbi. So again, IMO, if he has studied and is legitimately a Rabbi, and also a Messianic Jew at that, then fine by me if he is called "Rabbi" in such a case. But if he is not a true Rabbi, then a man has no right to claim to be so.

Hope that makes more sense

 

[simchat_torah]

So can a messianic congregation not be called a church?

It can, and typically is.

Not all of us go to a messianic congregation... that's why I answered such.

shalom,
yafet

 

[brentsbaby612]

As re: your original question... I would still say... Pastor for a church; Rabbi for a Jewish synagogue, provided the man is truly, legitimately a Rabbi. For a Messianic congregation... if a man was trained as a pastor in a Christian seminary, then he is a pastor/preacher/etc. -- NOT a Rabbi. So again, IMO, if he has studied and is legitimately a Rabbi, and also a Messianic Jew at that, then fine by me if he is called "Rabbi" in such a case. But if he is not a true Rabbi, then a man has no right to claim to be so.

Hope that makes more sense

It certainly does!

Re: the verses you cited, it seems to me that Yeshua was dealing more with a heart-condition of pride/ego/place and status. Some people use their learning to intellectually "bully" others, throwing their figurative weight around, relishing the status and place of one who is "learned"... this makes me think of the phrase, "love builds up; knowledge puffs up." And I think it was the haughtiness Yeshua was warning against more than the title or the learning or the responsibility of being a teacher. JMO, chi-ching.

So it okay for someone to be called rabbi/teacher,father/abba, master as long as they aren't arrogant?

It can, and typically is.

Not all of us go to a messianic congregation... that's why I answered such.

shalom,
yafet

Oh I know. My husband like many of you does not want to participate in organized religion, but now that I have children, I want them to be around others that believe in what we believe. It's just been hard to find a congregation that he approves of!

 

[ShirChadash]

It certainly does!

So it okay for someone to be called rabbi/teacher,father/abba, master as long as they aren't arrogant?

my point is really more that Yeshua was not addressing the title in order to negate its use, ever. I feel He was rather teaching of the supremacy of Abba YHVH and Himself over all other teachers/authorities. Sort of like, in Hebrews, I believe that it doesn't negate the earthly priestly system when it discusses Yeshua as the Great High Priest.

Oh I know. My husband like many of you does not want to participate in organized religion, but now that I have children, I want them to be around others that believe in what we believe. It's just been hard to find a congregation that he approves of!

Well, IMVHO it is extremely difficult to live out a life of faith in a vacuum, and having children makes it almost impossible to simply eschew community with other likeminded believers who will support you in your endeavor to teach your children YHVH's ways; parenthood is a weighty responsibility, including the responsibility to our children for their spiritual learning. That is why my family remains at least loosely connected to a "church" even while we as a family have personally been embracing more and more of MJ and Judaism these past 5 years. We struggle with it a lot, though, and as part and parcel of allowing our children to sit in the occasional "sunday school" class, they have learned to bring every teaching to us to discuss what they learn and either correct or add-to the teaching ourselves. We're praying G-d moves us where we can attend Synagogue or at least have a very conservatively-minded MJ congregation that will allow us to be who we are in Him without giving us a legalistic "you're too Jewish" run-around. For now, we're just waiting on Him....

 

[debi b]

However, there is some serious training/study required to be a Rabbi, and I feel that these guys are laying claim to a title they haven't earned.

OMEIN!