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Messianic Prophecies

Argy Lacedom

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I have noticed in one or two threads here that SDAs seem to believe that the Messianic Prophecies were fulfilled when Jesus lived and died on the cross. I have been told by others that there are a great number of unfulfilled messianic propesies. How do SDAs treat the following purported unfulfilled prophesies that should have occurred with the messiah's arrival...

  1. The end of sin (Ezek 36:25-27, 33, 37:23-24, Zeph 3:13, 3:15, Job 3:17, Isa 60:21 Jer 50:20)
  2. The end of suffering (Isa 65:19)
  3. Peace and tranquility (Isa 2:4, 9:6, 11:6-9, 65:19, 25, Zech 9:10, Micah 4:3, Hosea 2:18)
  4. One creed and one religion (Isa 2:2, 14:1, 45:14, 22-24, 52:1, 60:2-6, 14-16, 66:23, Zech 8:23, 14:9, Psa 86:9, Mal 1:11, Joel 3:17, Jer 31:34)
  5. One Kingdom and one king (Isa 11:12, 43:5-6, 60:11-12, Dan2:44, 7:27, Ezek 37:21-22, 39:28, Zech 14:9)
  6. The resurrection of the dead (Isa 26:19, Dan 12:2, Deut 32:39)
  7. The abolishment of idoltarous images and false prophets (Isa 2:18, 42:17, Zeph 2:11, Psa 97:7)
  8. The gathering of the ten tribes under a Divadic king (Ezek 37:21-22)
  9. The battle between Gog and Magog (Ezek 38 and 39)
  10. The cleaving of the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4)
  11. The building of the future temple (Ezek 40-46)
  12. The issuing of living water from the site of the temple (Ezek 47:1-2)
  13. The renewal of the Covenant as a sanctification for the Israelites (Ezek 37:26-28)
  14. The going up of the remnant of the nations to Jerusalem to worship (Zech 14:16)
  15. Jerusalem being safely inhabited (Zech 14:11)
  16. The messiah being desired by all nations (Hag 2:7)
  17. The wicked being slain (Isa 11:4)
  18. A messianic kindgom stretching from sea to sea (Zech 9:10, Psa 72:8, Dan 7:14)
With thanks to C Dennis McKinsey

Without doubt these are yet to materialise. What credentials does Jesus have to claim the title of messiah?

AL
 

k4c

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I have noticed in one or two threads here that SDAs seem to believe that the Messianic Prophecies were fulfilled when Jesus lived and died on the cross. I have been told by others that there are a great number of unfulfilled messianic propesies. How do SDAs treat the following purported unfulfilled prophesies that should have occurred with the messiah's arrival...

  1. The end of sin (Ezek 36:25-27, 33, 37:23-24, Zeph 3:13, 3:15, Job 3:17, Isa 60:21 Jer 50:20)
  2. The end of suffering (Isa 65:19)
  3. Peace and tranquility (Isa 2:4, 9:6, 11:6-9, 65:19, 25, Zech 9:10, Micah 4:3, Hosea 2:18)
  4. One creed and one religion (Isa 2:2, 14:1, 45:14, 22-24, 52:1, 60:2-6, 14-16, 66:23, Zech 8:23, 14:9, Psa 86:9, Mal 1:11, Joel 3:17, Jer 31:34)
  5. One Kingdom and one king (Isa 11:12, 43:5-6, 60:11-12, Dan2:44, 7:27, Ezek 37:21-22, 39:28, Zech 14:9)
  6. The resurrection of the dead (Isa 26:19, Dan 12:2, Deut 32:39)
  7. The abolishment of idoltarous images and false prophets (Isa 2:18, 42:17, Zeph 2:11, Psa 97:7)
  8. The gathering of the ten tribes under a Divadic king (Ezek 37:21-22)
  9. The battle between Gog and Magog (Ezek 38 and 39)
  10. The cleaving of the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4)
  11. The building of the future temple (Ezek 40-46)
  12. The issuing of living water from the site of the temple (Ezek 47:1-2)
  13. The renewal of the Covenant as a sanctification for the Israelites (Ezek 37:26-28)
  14. The going up of the remnant of the nations to Jerusalem to worship (Zech 14:16)
  15. Jerusalem being safely inhabited (Zech 14:11)
  16. The messiah being desired by all nations (Hag 2:7)
  17. The wicked being slain (Isa 11:4)
  18. A messianic kindgom stretching from sea to sea (Zech 9:10, Psa 72:8, Dan 7:14)
With thanks to C Dennis McKinsey

Without doubt these are yet to materialise. What credentials does Jesus have to claim the title of messiah?

AL

It's the Spirit that reveals the things of God, even the deep things. Ask God and He will not only reveal these things to you, He will confirm them to you.

God's law is a powerful revelation of His love for believers, as well as, nonbelievers because the wages of sin is death but He's giving us life because He loves us.
 
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Princessdi

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Argy, I have a question. you have been posting htreads here, and while you are new to me,I sense that others have had exchanges with you already. Now are you asking these questions to truly get an understanding, or are you already convinced of your understanding, and are here scaring the traditional SDAs for the fun of it?

You know they are resistant to answering your questions because they believe you are here to start trouble, right?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Now are you asking these questions to truly get an understanding, or are you already convinced of your understanding, and are here scaring the traditional SDAs for the fun of it?


How exactly is Argy scaring us?? By coming into an Adventist room and spouting atheist rhetoric?
 
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Argy Lacedom

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are you already convinced of your understanding, and are here scaring the traditional SDAs for the fun of it?
I am interested to know two things. First, why you use the word scare. It implies that they do not understand their religion, or have a very fragile faith. Second, why you think only traditional SDAs would be scared.

I have asked similar questions in other religious forums and had a variety of responses. None of them make sense to me. Perhaps the SDA viewpoint is different.

AL
 
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k4c

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I am interested to know two things. First, why you use the word scare. It implies that they do not understand their religion, or have a very fragile faith. Second, why you think only traditional SDAs would be scared.

I have asked similar questions in other religious forums and had a variety of responses. None of them make sense to me. Perhaps the SDA viewpoint is different.

AL

What would be the difference if you learned the answers to each one of those questions you posted? If one was raised from the dead right before your eyes you would still have an issue with believing God.

If the love, kindness and goodness of God is not enough to draw you to Him then receiving the answers to your questions won't either. Because there will alway be questions to find anwsers for and struggles in this life because we are mortal finite people.

Everyone of your questions can be answered very easily with some study and time with God but if your struggle with God is in your relationship with Him then it doesn't matter if you get answers to everyone of your questions. First ask God to make Himself real to you and then experience the love and forgiveness God has for all of us and then reach for answers and details in God's plan.
 
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Argy Lacedom

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What would be the difference if you learned the answers to each one of those questions you posted? If one was raised from the dead right before your eyes you would still have an issue with believing God.
This is a very core question. It basically gets down to the essense of what revelation means and what its importance is.

I have no belief in god because I have insufficient evidence to convince me that there is a god. I don't think my threshold is very high in this regard as I have a belief that you, k4c, are real. This is because I interact with you and get what I feel are appropriate responses. I have no such experience of the god you promote.

As I have said in previous posts, I was once a believer but have lost that belief. I have no control over that, but I am invested with a desire to know why, and how, others maintain their commitment. In a sense I feel that I have potentially cheated because, if god really exists, I have not been imbued with a knowledge of him despite my efforts over many years. I am sceptical of many of the claims of the various Christian denominations and have a need to test them in order to be sure that I have not missed anything.

If the love, kindness and goodness of God is not enough to draw you to Him then receiving the answers to your questions won't either. Because there will alway be questions to find anwsers for and struggles in this life because we are mortal finite people.
I disagree with that. If god is truly fair, reasonable and just then all people honestly seeking him would be treated equally.

Everyone of your questions can be answered very easily with some study and time with God but if your struggle with God is in your relationship with Him then it doesn't matter if you get answers to everyone of your questions. First ask God to make Himself real to you and then experience the love and forgiveness God has for all of us and then reach for answers and details in God's plan.
That is exactly what I did do. When I was a believer and found my faith slipping I prayed that he make me exactly what he wanted me to be. I am now an atheist.

You claim that every one of my questions about the failed messianic prophesies can be answered. Care to do so?

AL
 
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k4c

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Argy Lacedom; I have no belief in god because I have insufficient evidence to convince me that there is a god. I don't think my threshold is very high in this regard as I have a belief that you, k4c, are real. This is because I interact with you and get what I feel are appropriate responses. I have no such experience of the god you promote.

I don't believe you're an atheist because true atheists don't hang around Christian forums. I believe God is doing a work in you that will make you a very powerful witness for Him in the present evil age we live in.

As I have said in previous posts, I was once a believer but have lost that belief. I have no control over that, but I am invested with a desire to know why, and how, others maintain their commitment.

If one needs to "'maintain'' I would question their understanding of God's salvation plan. Many Christian's have a relationship with God based only in an intellectual sense. In other words, they know what happens when we die, they know which day is the true Sabbath, they understand all the prophecies and basically have all the answers to your questions but this is not what saves us or keeps us for Satan himself knows all these things.

Intellectually based relationships change with the ever changing times but God's character never changes. I don't care if you're a creationist or an evolutionist one can find problems in both religions because we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle. What we do have, that is built within creation itself, is a manifiestation of God's divine nature that is one of love, care and nurture.

Romans 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

When we begin to seek to know God in His character then He will touch a part of our lives that surpasses interllectual knowledge. This is where the life and power of God is able to fill us, empower us and change us.

Ephesians 3:19 May you experience the love of Christ that passes knowledge. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

In a sense I feel that I have potentially cheated because, if god really exists, I have not been imbued with a knowledge of him despite my efforts over many years. I am sceptical of many of the claims of the various Christian denominations and have a need to test them in order to be sure that I have not missed anything.

Feelings are a big part of experiencing relationships but they are not to determine how God feels about us. Adam and Eve had negative feeling towards God after they sinned but what was God like during that time? It says he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day. God's plan in saving us is not to save us from Him, but rather, to save us from sin. Sin can be in the form of what we do or how we think. The wage of sin is death, the gift of God is life. It's the sin that kills us, not God. God is trying to save us because He loves us. And do you want to know the most amazing part of it all? Saving us was finished before the foundation of the world, He's just revealing it to us through time. All we need to do is believe it.

1 Peter 1:20 Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,' "although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I disagree with that. If god is truly fair, reasonable and just then all people honestly seeking him would be treated equally.

God is fair because the wages of sin is death but both the wicked and the just are still alive. It rains on the just and the unjust. God is not willing that anyone perishes. God has given a measure of fiath to everyone and Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. That means the good, the bad and the ugly all have their sins paid for and I'm sure we can fit in at least one of those categories...;)

That is exactly what I did do. When I was a believer and found my faith slipping I prayed that he make me exactly what he wanted me to be. I am now an atheist.

You might not only be looking for God in all the wrong places, you might be looking for God for all the wrong reasons.

You claim that every one of my questions about the failed messianic prophesies can be answered. Care to do so?

AL

That would take time because many of the answers to your questions have to do with having an understanding of literal fullfillment and spiritual fullfillment.

For example; in the New Testament the temple is not a literal building, but rather, God's new covenant people are called, the temple of God. So if you're looking for a literal temple to be built or rebuilt it won't be part of God's plan and you would have lost your faith for nothing.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Thank you brother for you answer to Argy... it humbled me and I am ashamed of my tone and response to him.

Argy, I apologize for coming off as I'm sure many other 'Christians' have in dealing with you and your questions and I ask for your forgiveness. If I don't have a positive clear answer for you, then I will not interject... it is obvious that you are still seeking as you wouldn't be here otherwise. Please consider what K4C has said, it's not an just empirical evidence we need to know God but an inward assurance that comes from Him.
 
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Argy Lacedom

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Thank you brother for you answer to Argy... it humbled me and I am ashamed of my tone and response to him.

Argy, I apologize for coming off as I'm sure many other 'Christians' have in dealing with you and your questions and I ask for your forgiveness. If I don't have a positive clear answer for you, then I will not interject... it is obvious that you are still seeking as you wouldn't be here otherwise. Please consider what K4C has said, it's not an just empirical evidence we need to know God but an inward assurance that comes from Him.
No need to apologise. I'm in it for the rough and tumble and so far my experience on this forum has been mild compared to many others!

I think most atheists and believers do have at least one thing in common; a desire to determine truth. In my experience, if there is one big difference it is in how both groups evaluate the evidence. Atheists tend to be sceptics - prove it, give me evidence and show me are our most used phrases. Believers tend not to want or need evidence - have faith and it is a mystery are the most common phrases I hear.

I am here to debate ideas ruthlessly. In the process I might be convinced or compelled to change my position. If so, great. I will have learned something. I might also influence others to reflect a little more deeply and question the basis of their belief. Maybe even to change it. Again, great. Sometimes I will lose my cool, but in the main I hope I respond reasonably and courteously, attacking the argument not the man.

AL
 
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Argy Lacedom

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I don't believe you're an atheist because true atheists don't hang around Christian forums. I believe God is doing a work in you that will make you a very powerful witness for Him in the present evil age we live in.
You have a very low opinion of atheists! If you are right and there is a god, he uses strange methods to get his point across

Intellectually based relationships change with the ever changing times but God's character never changes. I don't care if you're a creationist or an evolutionist one can find problems in both religions because we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle. What we do have, that is built within creation itself, is a manifiestation of God's divine nature that is one of love, care and nurture.
I have a problem with that. God's revelation is very haphazard. I understand there are over 30,000 Christian sects alone, not to mention the myriad other religions of the world. To me that is a fundamental flag that something is amiss.

God is fair because the wages of sin is death but both the wicked and the just are still alive. It rains on the just and the unjust.
That seems like a very circular argument. You assume the bible is correct to prove the bible is correct.


You might not only be looking for God in all the wrong places, you might be looking for God for all the wrong reasons.
If god exists he gave me my nature. I had no control. I also have no control over what constitutes sufficient evidence for me to accept his existence.


That would take time because many of the answers to your questions have to do with having an understanding of literal fullfillment and spiritual fullfillment.

For example; in the New Testament the temple is not a literal building, but rather, God's new covenant people are called, the temple of God. So if you're looking for a literal temple to be built or rebuilt it won't be part of God's plan and you would have lost your faith for nothing.
When I posted the list of unfulfilled prophesies I didn't expect trivial answers. I'm willing to be patient in order to get a reasoned response.

AL
 
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k4c

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You have a very low opinion of atheists! If you are right and there is a god, he uses strange methods to get his point across

I have a problem with that. God's revelation is very haphazard. I understand there are over 30,000 Christian sects alone, not to mention the myriad other religions of the world. To me that is a fundamental flag that something is amiss.

That seems like a very circular argument. You assume the bible is correct to prove the bible is correct.

If god exists he gave me my nature. I had no control. I also have no control over what constitutes sufficient evidence for me to accept his existence.

When I posted the list of unfulfilled prophesies I didn't expect trivial answers. I'm willing to be patient in order to get a reasoned response.

AL

Just as Romans 1:20 says, there is enough evidence in creation to testify of God and to get a glimpse of His divine nature so you have no excuse. The rest of your relationship with God will have to be internal and that's between you and Him and no one else.

Though someone is raised from the dead right before your eyes it still won't be enough to make you believe because that too is an external evidence, which can be explained away by a rebellious heart.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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If you are right and there is a god, he uses strange methods to get his point across
This is quite true. One might even call them mysterious.

I understand there are over 30,000 Christian sects alone, not to mention the myriad other religions of the world. To me that is a fundamental flag that something is amiss.
Without a doubt. Here's what's amiss . . . people have a very limited perspective.

We find a similar reality in the scientific community where there are many different schools of thought.

If god exists he gave me my nature. I had no control.
Theoretically, wouldn't you have control over that which He allows you to control?

When I posted the list of unfulfilled prophesies I didn't expect trivial answers. I'm willing to be patient in order to get a reasoned response.
What format would be acceptable to you? If I provided reasoning based on my understanding of the Bible, would that offend you?

BFA
 
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Argy Lacedom

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Without a doubt. Here's what's amiss . . . people have a very limited perspective.
Do you think that is an excuse for the confusion? If god exists he created human nature. If that nature gives us a limited perspective then the message should be changed or delivered differently to ensure that it is not misunderstood. The existence of 30,000 Christian sects and myriad other religions in the world is ample evidence that the message is not getting through.

We find a similar reality in the scientific community where there are many different schools of thought.
The difference is that the schools of thought can be independently tested. The different schools of thought are necessary to explore nature. In the end, though, unlike religions scientific thought converges.

Theoretically, wouldn't you have control over that which He allows you to control?
Who knows?

What format would be acceptable to you? If I provided reasoning based on my understanding of the Bible, would that offend you?

BFA
I am not easily offended! But I do expect consistency.

AL
 
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stinsonmarri

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AL:

First it appears that my SDA fellow persons never seem to address what you ask. I am learning certain things or symbols on this forum and found out that my so call reputation as a SDA is not quite nice but it is alright. It is like that when you speak for the truth of my faith and also the errors of those whose choose to hold on to things that the Bible does not claim. I will be glad to answer the question through the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not judging you or anyone as I am judged however. I have made errors and when I am shown that I have done wrong I come and apologize because I want you to understand it is not about a Denomination but about the love of my Savior who die for me. I want to be saved and I want you and all on these forums the same and I speak what the Bible says and when you do you will not be well like or have here bonus points like Yashua even from your own. Through the grace of Elohim I will provide you an answer and may Yahweh's blessings be upon His true word and not mine.

All of your questions are finalizes in both Daniel and Revelation because these books are the same. The Bible is a road map to the Heavenly Kingdom and man must follow the path to be saved and that is really simple. But here the problem we all want to go it our way and not the way the Bible provides or presents it. That is why there are so many Denominations and everyone claims my way is right. The Bible should never be interpreted but understood and as I stated to you in another forum is has to do with defining words correctly. Let me be clear all Scholars define certain words that suites what they believe and it just does not work like that.

When sin came into this earth Yahweh promised our first parents that His Son would come and destroy sin. Well like most of us they wanted it to happen right away and didn't because man had to prove himself worthy of being redeem. It was not successful because a flood was brought on the earth in its infancy. Then one man Nimrod, a tyrant, took over almost the entire people of the earth becoming the only world Emperor and built a structure that cause the Almighty Ones to come down and destroy it completely. Now most will get upset with me but this was not some temple and the Bible never said that it took off the top of it either. We read all about aliens coming here and Solomon already stated that there is nothing new under the face of the sun. Eccl 1:9, 10 History repeats itself and I said this before and these people were genius and still lived a long time. Yahweh had to stop them and this how the languages came about because sinful man was on his way up! Elohim place a barrier around Mars and Jupiter to get us here on earth! Yes we been to the moon and Mars but no where else and those ancient writings are us. It all will be revealed very soon watch and see!

Yahweh provided you the nations of man so that we would respect each others way of life but we don't. He selected first Noah's grandson Canaan who had a problem like his daddy disrespected his elder (his father why he was drunk and naked) and that is all. Canaan received the call first, than Israel, than the Gentiles in that order. Catholicism formed by Satan (please this is not against the people who are sincere Catholic and want to be saved they will), was a destructive force. People began to protest through reform but they kept many of the concepts of the Catholic Church. Protestants started one church after another because the original church would not reform when someone found more truth by Elohim who was leading them the leaders would dispute and kick them out and on and on it went.

In the early 1800 man was scared of Elohim because the churches was preaching all fire and brim storm messages instead of love and repentance from sin. They had overlooked what Yahweh in the Bible had presented also there now were many versions of the Bible and Bible colleges under these many denominations. Yahweh sent a message out to a man name Miller and a great awaking took place. But once again Satan interrupted the truth that others found that others did not want to hear and here we are today. SDA had a message by Yahweh and it was found on positive principles but they too like the Jews think as all churches do that you must come through them to be saved. WRONG it is only through the Holy Spirit and not the messenger!!!!

Who is Gog why it is the beast/man and who is Israel it is those who have the message of Elohim today and not just the Jews of yesterday. Now let me explain the 144,000 will comprise people and kindred of all nations which include the Jews. All those Scriptures you provided will climax at the end of time. Sadly the Papacy (Gentile/harlot, Jerusalem (Babylon), the rebuilt Temple (Mount Moriah and not Jerusalem, the original Temple was build outside of Jerusalem read history. The same mountain that Abraham was about to offer up Isaac. It is not the Dome of the Rock that a high place but located south east down much lower near water.), the beast/man (once a Catholic of great importance but turn away with fury), all of Satan angels, the false prophet (USA), Europe (the ten horns that are not kings until the endtime), and the people east of the River Euphrates will all be against Elohim and both the 144,000 and the great multitude this is the remnant and not the SDA Church! This remnant will come from all religions of the earth that will repent and along with the 144,000 keep the commandments of Yahweh and have the Testimony of Yashua the Messiah. They also will call Yahweh, Yashua and the Holy Spirit by Their right names.

Now all Scriptures point to the end time which first will be the Time of Trouble and then the beast/man, the false prophet, Europe and the kings of the east will all joined together and fight the Papacy, Christians, and Jews who rejected truth in the final battle of Armageddon and they will be destroyed by a nuclear weapon but the city finally wiped out by a mighty angel of Yahweh and this great city will be caste into the sea.

Now the saints or remnant will be protected during this awful time because seven last plagues will fall on both evil foes. Already the earth have been devastated by Yahweh with a comet, asteroid, meteor (that will break up and hit the rivers and springs) meteors hitting a third part of the sun, moon and stars during the Time of Trouble. The beast/man will now focus on them and this is known as "Jacob time of trouble," because it is what all the saints will go through together. Sometime during this period a certain group of righteous dead and those who crucified the Saviour will arise. The Father will announce at this time His Son arrival the wicked will not understand but the Saints will understand. The beast/man and his army will try to kill the saints and the last plague of hail will fall to prevent him and then Yashua arrives without a fight place both the beast/man and the false prophet in a lake of fire. The rest of the beast/man earthly army will be destroyed and their flesh eaten as indicated. Satan and his evil angels will be locked down in the place they dwell after been kicked out of Heaven (the earth was not even made then.).

The saints will go to Heaven for a coronation first then review why the wicked was lost by going over the books of Heaven. They will realize the justice of Elohim and then all will return to the earth. The New Jerusalem will come and fill the hole of the old wicked Jerusalem (Babylon) because Mount Olive will become a plain. Satan and his angels will be loose one last time all the wicked will arise by Elohim and they will join with Satan. They will try to take the city but as they attempt to do so just like a web cam all including Satan and his angels will see their entire life and how they rejected truth. They all including Satan will bow and confess but again become angry and try again but we be destroyed in the lake of fire like the beast/man and the false prophet and then the earth will be made new end of story!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Do you think that is an excuse for the confusion?

Who needs an excuse? We all misunderstand something whether we have an excuse or not.

If god exists he created human nature. If that nature gives us a limited perspective then the message should be changed or delivered differently to ensure that it is not misunderstood.
Do you assume that it is important to God that every person understand everything there is to know? Why would this be important to God?

The existence of 30,000 Christian sects and myriad other religions in the world is ample evidence that the message is not getting through.
Do widely differing opinions within the scientific community cause us to reject science as a valid means of exploration? I would hope not. Should we apply consistent standards to all groups?

The different schools of thought are necessary to explore nature. In the end, though, unlike religions scientific thought converges.
I find the same to be true in other circles as well. Take ... for example ... the debate regarding salvation. Calvinists and arminians have debated it for centuries. My perspective is that -- in the end -- these different schools of thought assist us in understanding salvation. These ideas actually converge in the tension between election and free will. When both are allowed to co-exist, spiritual things take on a new dimension.

I am not easily offended! But I do expect consistency.
If I were to respond to your OP, what would that consistency look like? Would I tackle the verses you've cited, or would that result in me using the Bible to defend the Bible? Is that really a worthwhile exercise?

BFA
 
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stinsonmarri

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I might also influence others to reflect a little more deeply and question the basis of their belief. Maybe even to change it. Again, great. Sometimes I will lose my cool, but in the main I hope I respond reasonably and courteously, attacking the argument not the man.

AL


AL:

That is great and shows that you have an open mind. I wish that all could be open minded enough to investigate to see if what is offered is truth or not. However so many are caught up in their beliefs and are stuck like a car in mud and are not willing to get help to get out.

One of our pioneers who was a great messenger stated that we should not hold on to our once preconceived beliefs but to check out new sources and realize that we can change as she did. Many of my SDA counterparts who I loved state that they believe in her message but only what suites them but as she grew older she made changes and wrote them out clearly. No she was not a prophetess and she made that clear but they do not want to hear what the lady said about her mission herself. She also admitted that what she may have thought was correct at one time she learned itwas wrong but she clearly stated to always take the Bible.

We all get upset at time but it takes a courageous person to admit they had this fault and can regroup. I sometime act an appropriate manner myself but I really am working on it. One person on this forum who is a SDA member helps me out and that is "East Coast Remnant." I am disappointing in him lately I, being old and forgetful, had his acronym wrong calling him RC but he truly has not responded back to me on a question he asked and about the President I hope he does soon. I have a lot of respect for him.

My prayers for you is that the Holy Spirit and not anyone of us will lead you to search for truth with a sincere heart if so you will find it.

May you be bless in your quest for answers,
stinsonmarri
 
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Argy Lacedom

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Do you assume that it is important to God that every person understand everything there is to know? Why would this be important to God?
Excellent point. How could an omnipotent, omniscient being have any need for anything, especially understanding from an infinitely inferior group of beings?


Do widely differing opinions within the scientific community cause us to reject science as a valid means of exploration? I would hope not. Should we apply consistent standards to all groups?
I'm not sure why you are trying to conflate science and religion. Science relies on exploration of ideas and notions. It thrives on being challenged. But ultimately these differences are sorted out in the cauldron of independent testing and observation. The theory of gravity is a typical example. There have been lots of different ideas developed to explain it, but only one is currently accepted as the best (the theory of general relativity). A scientist who persists in backing a cause that has ling since been falsified pretty quickly loses credibility.

In religion there is no mechanism for determining which idea is correct. No means of independently testing who is right and who is wrong. That means that religion gets down to a matter of opinion. And that is why there are so many of them.

I find the same to be true in other circles as well. Take ... for example ... the debate regarding salvation. Calvinists and arminians have debated it for centuries. My perspective is that -- in the end -- these different schools of thought assist us in understanding salvation. These ideas actually converge in the tension between election and free will. When both are allowed to co-exist, spiritual things take on a new dimension.
Salvation is an idea unique to Christianity. Most people in the world do not even consider it worthy of a moment's thought. As I said, religious truth is largely a matter of opinion.

If I were to respond to your OP, what would that consistency look like? Would I tackle the verses you've cited, or would that result in me using the Bible to defend the Bible? Is that really a worthwhile exercise?

BFA
I'm quite happy for you to tackle it any way you like. You might want to take each one individually, or you might well be able to convey an overarching comment that deals with them all.

In other forums where I have presented these failed prophesies the answers have been pretty trite. I don't want to push you in any particular direction, but the biggest red herring has been the suggestion that the prophesies will be fulfilled at the second coming. That fails on two points. First, OT scripture never once mentions that there will be two comings. Second, any person could make such a claim - "I am the messiah. I know I haven't fulfilled all the prophesies, but I promise to fulfil them next time." Jesus might very well be the messiah, but until he actually fulfils all prophesy we are entitled to be sceptical of such claims.

AL
 
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