Messianic Judaism

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
So I'll just add you, at your request, to my ignore list.

To anyone else, please note that the standards I have set for myself and others are the same. I am willing to meet them. If you are not, please fall in line behind Heber and ignore me. I don't wish to waste time with people who have double standards or with anyone who believes that their own personal convictions are to be held at higher esteem than proper discourse.

Also, if you choose to consistently tell me that my education has failed me and insult my own thorough knowledge of nature of Christianity, it's origins, ect, please make sure you are more equipped to back up your claims than asserting that your specific understanding of scripture is the only required source to refute me. If this is a problem, by all means, please, add me to your ignore list as well.

I'm not really here to debate, but I will stand up for myself regarding personal attacks on my character, intent, or intellect.

yedida · Oct 10, 2011

cupid dave said:
?
Wasn't Jesus saying that his "whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions pf Judaism that are corrupted and are not instituted by God?"

No, Dave, not everything. Not at all. He endorsed the Pharisees, said they sat in the seat of Moses, and for the people to do as they said. He just admonished the people that they not do the things in the same attitude as the Pharisees, but rather to do what they were told with a right heart and right attitude toward God.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
They are not the same?

Just making sure that for those who see more than one person... I got my bases covered.

cupid dave · Oct 10, 2011

yedida said:
No, Dave, not everything. Not at all. He endorsed the Pharisees, said they sat in the seat of Moses, and for the people to do as they said. He just admonished the people that they not do the things in the same attitude as the Pharisees, but rather to do what they were told with a right heart and right attitude toward God.

Oh, my fault...I thougth you had said: ..."whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions pf Judaism that are CORRUPTED and are not instituted by God?"

yedida · Oct 10, 2011

cupid dave said:
Oh, my fault...I thougth you had said: ..."whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions pf Judaism that are CORRUPTED and are not instituted by God?"

First of all, I didn't say that, someone else did. You need to set your replies to the correct post.
Second, you ARE NOT to be debating in here, especially in the tone that you are using. This is a congregational specific subforum and if you do not follow Messianic Judaism you are not a member of this forum. You have been asked numerous times to stop debating and teaching in here, the report button will be used if you continue to ignore our requests.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

cupid dave said:
Originally Posted by visionary
Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

?
Wasn't Jesus saying that his "whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions pf Judaism that are corrupted and are not instituted by God?"

Yes, the practices and traditions that interfere with obeying God's Ten... in fact any practice or tradition or behavior that interferes with obeying God's Ten comes under Yeshua's scrutiny.

Think not... no changes to the Law of God.. til heaven and earth pass away...

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

visionary said:
Just making sure that for those who see more than one person... I got my basis covered.

That would be G_d 'and' Yeshua, not 'or' Yeshua

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
That would be G_d 'and' Yeshua, not 'or' Yeshua

God or Yeshua... I am not concerned which name or title you go by... But I absolutely did not mean God and Yeshua like they were two different entities.

Lulav · Oct 10, 2011

ChavaK said:
I've seen a growing trend on the part of some (not all!) Messianics to try
to attach pagan meaning to certain Christian beliefs and rituals.
I find that appalling.

Just wondering why this matters to you Chavak?? I've seen you say many times that what we believe doesn't concern you in any way so I am stymied as to why you seem to be for Christianity and against Messianics so much in your posts lately?

As an Orthodox Jew, don't you consider both as pagan religions? After all you think we believe in more than one god, right?

ChavaK · Oct 10, 2011

Lulav said:
Just wondering why this matters to you Chavak?? I've seen you say many times that what we believe doesn't concern you in any way so I am stymied as to why you seem to be for Christianity and against Messianics so much in your posts lately?

As far as my daily life, what others believe doesn't affect me one way
or the other. As Thomas Jefferson said, my neighbor can believe in 20 gods or in none...it neither breaks my leg nor
picks my pocket.

But I am a very consistent person. I view Christianity and the Messianic Faith as one and the same. Therefore it strikes me odd that some (again not all) Messianics seem to delight in attacking parts of the Christian faith.
It doesn't make sense to me. And, after all, this is a Christian forum....so why attack the faith?

As an Orthodox Jew, don't you consider both as pagan religions? After all you think we believe in more than one god, right?

What's that got to do with anything? I don't see it as being relevant at
all to the discussion.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

visionary said:
God or Yeshua... I am not concerned which name or title you go by... But I absolutely did not mean God and Yeshua like they were two different entities.

That is just what 'or' means: this one or this one... two entities

'and' means both, equally.

Must have been a typo.

The chosen titles are not a problem - why, should they be?

Lulav · Oct 10, 2011

ContraMundum said:
Yes, I agree. It's revolting and vile to think of a Jewish kiddush rite during the Seder as a "pagan" rite of some kind. While I am not all that surprised, it is a new low in the latest outrageous claim to come out of this forum. It should be reportable and banned.

I don't think that was what Vis was saying at all and find it offensive to her that she is being accused of this.

What I think she is saying and she is capable of correcting me if I am wrong, is NOT that what Yeshua did was pagan, not at all.

But the ritual that was handed down combined the Passover Seder with known gentile rites in order to make it more palatable for them. It is a well documented fact that that is what the early church did, so to be so incensed about it is ridicules.

It was a way to be 'in communion' with the deity. This can be seen in many documents on the history of religions. Most notably the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Part 9 speaks extensively of the 'Eating of the god'.

Lulav · Oct 10, 2011

This thread has so much bad energy in it I am sorry I took the time to read through it.

rsduncan · Oct 10, 2011

Lulav said:
This thread has so much bad energy in it I am sorry I took the time to read through it.

Captain Kirk had trouble with negative-energy fields too...

Lulav · Oct 10, 2011

Maybe he time-warped back to this forum.............................

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

ChavaK said:
As far as my daily life, what others believe doesn't affect me one way
or the other.
But I am a very consistent person. I view Christianity and the Messianic Faith as one and the same. Therefore it strikes me odd that some (again not all) Messianics seem to delight in attacking parts of the Christian faith.
It doesn't make sense to me. And, after all, this is a Christian forum....so why attack the faith?

What's that got to do with anything? I don't see it as being relevant at
all to the discussion.

Like why attack a tradition that interferes with the truth.. something Yeshua was known to get perturbed about with His fellow people.

pat34lee · Oct 10, 2011

ChavaK said:
I view Christianity and the Messianic Faith as one and the same.

Christians and messianics are no more the same faith than Orthodox, Karaite, and Reform Jews and Sadducees are all the same. Just among Christians themselves, there are vast differences in how they view both the Father and the Messiah, and in how much of the bible they believe is real and what some believe is just morality stories and fables.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

Lulav said:
I don't think that was what Vis was saying at all and find it offensive to her that she is being accused of this.

What I think she is saying and she is capable of correcting me if I am wrong, is NOT that what Yeshua did was pagan, not at all.

But the ritual that was handed down combined the Passover Seder with known gentile rites in order to make it more palatable for them. It is a well documented fact that that is what the early church did, so to be so incensed about it is ridiculous.

It was a way to be 'in communion' with the deity. This can be seen in many documents on the history of religions. Most notably the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Part 9 speaks extensively of the 'Eating of the god'.

You are not wrong.. that is exactly what I am trying to say.. but you said it so much better than I. Thank you.

xDenax · Oct 11, 2011

pat34lee said:
Christians and messianics are no more the same faith than Orthodox, Karaite, and Reform Jews and Sadducees are all the same.

I was just on a Messianic website (Yedida's congregation) and it, like others I have read, look very similar to Christianity to me. The statement of faith and "what we believe" stuff is almost identical to something you'd find on a Protestant website. So to me they seem the same.

visionary · Oct 11, 2011

xDenax said:
I was just on a Messianic website (Yedida's congregation) and it, like others I have read, look very similar to Christianity to me. The statement of faith and "what we believe" stuff is almost identical to something you'd find on a Protestant website. So to me they seem the same.

Come visit... go to one then the other...

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Huram Abi

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cupid dave

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