Messianic Judaism

yedida · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
Careful reading of the Bible will give you evidence you need that the Christian celebration known as Eucharist / Communion / Lord's Supper / Last Supper / Breaking of Bread, has its origins in the Passover Seder of Judaism. As Scripture gives the meaning, authority and means, Christians need no external evidence from the secular world.

Heber,
I think a lot of the problem with the differences one sees in the eucharist/communion and the Seder/Last Supper has a lot to do with the RCC's transubstantiation (is that the word?).
It has it's orgins in the Seder, but RCC took it way off into the outfield.

Thinking of the bread and wine symbolically is one thing, thinking it magically turns into the actual flesh and blood is altogether something else. Severe brain block.

I guess one would have to be of the orthodoxy to see it all as the same thing and most of us were not.

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
Careful reading of the Bible will give you evidence you need that the Christian celebration known as Eucharist / Communion / Lord's Supper / Last Supper / Breaking of Bread, has its origins in the Passover Seder of Judaism. As Scripture gives the meaning, authority and means, Christians need no external evidence from the secular world.

But are we not told to test the scripture? And how do we do that? Against itself? In any other discipline wouldn't this be called "circular logic"?

No person has gained wisdom in any other form of instruction without conferring with a large number of well-rounded, diverse sources.

If these Christians that you speak of are the same that you claim are "well-disciplined" that need no external evidence from the secular world, then I might as well be learning html coding from the Amish.

I expect much more than circular logic, here. Thanks.

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

yedida said:
Heber,
I think a lot of the problem with the differences one sees in the eucharist/communion and the Seder/Last Supper has a lot to do with the RCC's transubstantiation (is that the word?).
It has it's orgins in the Seder, but RCC took it way off into the outfield.

Thinking of the bread and wine symbolically is one thing, thinking it magically turns into the actual flesh and blood is altogether something else. Severe brain block.

I guess one would have to be of the orthodoxy to see it all as the same thing and most of us were not.

Is it better to say that the Eucharist has origins with the Sedar, but in some circles outside MJ, it also shares the traditions of the older eucharist? rites?

yedida · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Is it better to say that the Eucharist has origins with the Sedar, but in some circles outside MJ, it also shares the traditions of the older eucharist? rites?

I can't say. I don't know anything about an older eucharist. I'm only familiar somewhat with the RCC version. And the part of the Seder that became known as the eucharist/communion was something that Yeshua added to the existing Seder practices. That's the extent of my knowledge of it all.
I just know that I cannot relate to transubstantiation.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

yedida said:
Heber,
I think a lot of the problem with the differences one sees in the eucharist/communion and the Seder/Last Supper has a lot to do with the RCC's transubstantiation (is that the word?).
It has it's orgins in the Seder, but RCC took it way off into the outfield.

Thinking of the bread and wine symbolically is one thing, thinking it magically turns into the actual flesh and blood is altogether something else. Severe brain block.

I guess one would have to be of the orthodoxy to see it all as the same thing and most of us were not.

Though I am not a Catholic (and about as far removed, theologically, as it is possible to be, whilst remaining in the Church) I am aware of Catholic theology to a fair degree, so I know this, but, even so, their origins of the Eucharist are not in any sense to do with the secular as being propounded on this thread. - they are directly from Scripture. CM, being closer to the 'established' Church than I am thinks the idea laughable as well. The Catholic Church, as the original form of Church, took the words of Scripture to form the Eucharist. This would, I suspect (as I cannot remember the detail just now) include a quite literal use of John 6 as well as the warrant in 1 Corinthians 11 - this latter being common to all Churches.

In any case, it is always ill advised to assume the whole Church behaves or even supports all that each denomination holds to. It is disinegenuous to for anyone to imply it (not that you are/have).

PS - you got the word right!

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Is it better to say that the Eucharist has origins with the Sedar, but in some circles outside MJ, it also shares the traditions of the older eucharist? rites?

No. There is no way any Christian would celebrate communion (or call it what you will of the other titles) unless it is the based solely on the Biblical mandate, found in 1 Corithians 11, whether inside or outside of MJism. It is offensive to suggest that they would, as I have already said to you, as has CM.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

ContraMundum said:
I haven't laughed this hard since I read Hislop's "The Two Babylons".

Get this out of a Jack Chick tract, did we?

Gosh, if we want to indict the Thanksgiving as "pagan" then surely we have to throw out the Torah as well. It's loaded with Egyptian religious ideals like sacrifices to appease one's god, jugement and eternal life, a priestly caste, a religious calendar etc. All found in Egypt before Moses (did the Jews merely change the common religion into a monotheistic version, as the anthropologists tell us??) Even the moral law has a predecessor in the Code of Hammurabi.

Better re-think your understanding of religion, God and how He deals with us all. Or not. I don't care.

Methinks too much etic and not enough emic produces these odd things!

yonah_mishael · Oct 10, 2011

cupid dave said:
Well thank you for the christian virtue of welcoming the stranger among you all.
I think if you examine the things I post you will see that I have always been up front with my comments concerning what i believe,

Here is a concise list of the issues i discuass:

1) Genesis literally says the same things as Modern Science.

2) Sexual Promiscuity creates welfare Single Mothers who raise criminal children.

3) Elijah returned in 32AD and did the same things again.

4) Homosexuality is a signal that the culture is Matriarchic, weak, and about to fall.

5) Christ is Truth, and his image is "Reality," our Almighty g-d.

6) The 1000 year reign of Christ ended in 1054AD with the Greek Schism.

7) Peace on Earth starts in Israel when Christian pilgrims flood into the Holy Lands.

Wow. You really should look for another place to post. This is not in-line with Messianic Judaism.

ContraMundum · Oct 10, 2011

visionary said:
Eucharist and the Mass originated in the practices of the Persian Mithraism and the scholars who believe and studied it are but a few examples like Dieterich, H. T. Holtzmann, Pfleiderer, Robertson, etc.

Oh goodness gracious...

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice of the Mass

If you think the Medieval Catholic idea of the Mass is what we mean by the Christian eucharist you are quite mistaken.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

ContraMundum said:
Oh goodness gracious...

If you think the Medieval Catholic idea of the Mass is what we mean by the Christian eucharist you are quite mistaken.

I posted what has a trail farther back and has no roots in Yeshua

yedida · Oct 10, 2011

ContraMundum said:
Oh goodness gracious...

If you think the Medieval Catholic idea of the Mass is what we mean by the Christian eucharist you are quite mistaken.

I don't know how far down the page was your difference between Medieval Catholic idea of the Mass and the Christian eucharist was but I didn't make it. all I saw was talking about the difference between the Mass and the eucharist/communion.
Do you not still believe in the transubstantiation happening? Did the pope change it? What is the difference between the two in your own words (which are much easier to understand btw).

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
No. There is no way any Christian would celebrate communion (or call it what you will of the other titles) unless it is the based solely on the Biblical mandate, found in 1 Corithians 11, whether inside or outside of MJism. It is offensive to suggest that they would, as I have already said to you, as has CM.

Whether it is offensive or not, do you believe that any Christian practice or belief has been, or is able to be corrupted? Isn't that kind of the point of MJ? To restore the practices and traditions that have been corrupted through mistranslation or politically motivated factions?

There are plenty of ways that Christians have, and will continue to celebrate that are not instituted by the Torah or by Jesus' teachings. Please don't be so naive to pretend that we don't or never have.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Whether it is offensive or not, do you believe that any Christian practice or belief has been, or is able to be corrupted? Isn't that kind of the point of MJ? To restore the practices and traditions that have been corrupted through mistranslation or politically motivated factions?

There are plenty of ways that Christians have, and will continue to celebrate that are not instituted by the Torah or by Jesus' teachings. Please don't be so naive to pretend that we don't or never have.

If only you knew! Naive! Do you specialise in insults and being patronising? It sure seems so.

Christians have perverted some of what G_d says, over the years, as have Jews, as have MJ's and most other 'religions' and I see you, also, are adept at perverting G_d's word. No one would argue otherwise, I'm sure.

If you wish to speak on equal terms, as you say, then please raise your bar by a considerable number of notches, and show some respect for things you do not know a great deal about, quite obviously.

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

Heber said:
If only you knew! Naive! Do you specialise in insults and being patronising? It sure seems so.

Christians have perverted some of what G_d says, over the years, as have Jews, as have MJ's and most other 'religions' and I see you, also, are adept at perverting G_d's word. No one would argue otherwise, I'm sure.

If you wish to speak on equal terms, as you say, then please raise your bar by a considerable number of notches, and show some respect for things you do not know a great deal about, quite obviously.

I haven't even spoken about G-d's word, contextually, so, how have I perverted it?

You are the one who keeps saying that I am uninformed and my education has failed me badly, and at the same time have been unable to demonstrate that the Egyptians did not perform the Eucharist.

If you want an honest assessment of your inability to do anything beyond making unwarranted claims, you will be insulted, no doubt. So far, however, the put-downs between us have been one-sided and I have been quite patient with you, considering that, compared to the rest of the responses on here, only a crazy, messiah wannabe has shown himself to have less quality of thought and less ability to demonstrate claims than you.

Show a little respect, yourself. Otherwise, don't talk to me.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Whether it is offensive or not, do you believe that any Christian practice or belief has been, or is able to be corrupted? Isn't that kind of the point of MJ? To restore the practices and traditions that have been corrupted through mistranslation or politically motivated factions?

There are plenty of ways that Christians have, and will continue to celebrate that are not instituted by the Torah or by Jesus' teachings. Please don't be so naive to pretend that we don't or never have.

Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

Huram Abi · Oct 10, 2011

visionary said:
Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

Thanks. Seemed kinda obvious to me.

visionary · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Thanks. Seemed kinda obvious to me.

Me too... Glad to have you aboard, watching the gate. and making sure the wall is not breached.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

Huram Abi said:
I haven't even spoken about G-d's word, contextually, so, how have I perverted it?

You are the one who keeps saying that I am uninformed and my education has failed me badly, and at the same time have been unable to demonstrate that the Egyptians did not perform the Eucharist.

If you want an honest assessment of your inability to do anything beyond making unwarranted claims, you will be insulted, no doubt. So far, however, the put-downs between us have been one-sided and I have been quite patient with you, considering that, compared to the rest of the responses on here, only a crazy, messiah wannabe has shown himself to have less quality of thought and less ability to demonstrate claims than you.

Show a little respect, yourself. Otherwise, don't talk to me.

1. It is true that you have not spoken, directly, about G_d's word, certainly not contextually, but you have been casting doubt on his word. Other posters have made similar observations... when they stopped laughing, on occasions. Btw it is possible to pervert G_d's word in a variety of ways - sometimes from silence!

2. I have already pointed out to you that Christians obey the word of G_d, as do MJ's, and that our authority etc etc is from Scripture for what we do, especially so in relation to observance of 1 Cor. 11 requirements, which you seem to reject. Your silence in relation to that response has been truly deafening.

3. Pretentious tosh and bluster. Not worthy of any comment, really, especially in relation to some of your posts.

4. I would if you didn't have an attitude problem that you always know better. Against such arrogance there is no answer, more often than not. We see it a lot on these fora

5. That's fine - the arguments you have, thus far, posited in favour of your thesis make no sense whatsoever and you have not found it possible to refute the reponses made by me, or others. So I'll just add you, at your request, to my ignore list. Though I am sure others will pick up your errors as you continue in your mis-reading and mis-understanding of Church history, Bible knowledge, or G_d's word, in line with some others on this forum.

Heber · Oct 10, 2011

visionary said:
Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

They are not the same?

cupid dave · Oct 10, 2011

Originally Posted by visionary
Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

Huram Abi said:
Thanks. Seemed kinda obvious to me.

Heber said:
They are not the same?

?
Wasn't Jesus saying that his "whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions pf Judaism that are corrupted and are not instituted by God?"

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