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Ah, Contra, I read everything you post. We do buck horns a bit, you and I, but there are times when we stand in agreement and/or understanding - and those times bring joy. (And if we agreed with everyone on everything, then we might just as well pack it all up and call it a day for there'd be nothing left for any of us to share and learn. You think?)
The list is found in the Encyclopedia Judaica.
And of course Hesus did these and more:
For instance, the Cross is the scepter: "he will show the scepter which he received from God."
go gere to find the Traditional list but remember the general idea, that by his miracles Elijah will be recognized:
Jewish Encyclopedia:
The Seven Miracles
JewishEncyclopedia.com - ELIJAH
Christian need remember that Christ said "I am the Truth, and the way"... so we need look openly at the facts abd have no fear of the truth but a love for it when it changes our mind.
1) I do appeal to the ancient Tradition of Seven Miracles as the way the Jews expected to recognize Elijah.
2) Jesus did all seven miracles and more.
For Instance:
The 12 apostles were the company "he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth."
Elijah DID revive the crucified Jesus, or the messiah son of Joseph.
(Remember that Korah oppose the authority of The Law in the days of Moses.)
3) Jesus wrote "the letter to Earth" to John, called Revelation, after His ascencion.
Just to comment on the form אהיה (ehyeh). When Moses received the vision of the burning bush, God sent him to tell the Israelites that he was going to deliver them, and Moses asked what name to tell them if they asked what God's name was. God told them that his name was אהיה אשר אהיה and then told Moses to tell them that אהיה had sent him to them. This all takes place in Exodus chapter 3.
The first appearance of the word אהיה in the text is in verse 12, where God tells him that he would be with him and give him a sign of his presence with him.
We find this in verse 14:
כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם
"Thus shall you say to the children of Israel: Ehyeh has sent me to you."
In the KJV, it's translated as "I AM," and Christians have generally used "I AM" as a name for God, so it shouldn't seem strange to you if you replace all of the occurrences of אהיה in that video (which I reported as breaking the rules) with "I AM."
I agree 100% You just spoke my heart.I'm sorry you feel that way.
When I first turned to Christianity, when I was 18 years old, I was of the hippie generation. I was bathed, clean clothes but a street person. My friend and I were turned out of over 1/2 dozen churches because we didn't look like the rest of the congregation. We were getting frantic over who was going to baptize us. We had read that we all were ambassadors for Christ so we figured if we were that then we could baptize each other, which we promptly did so we could be obedient.
Once I gave up the hippie life and became a "normal" person and was all at once "liked" by the churches I never felt a need to re-do my baptism. I felt very secure in what my friend and I had done in a pinch.
Then I backslid. I was left alone with a 2 year old and got my eyes off God and on how I was gonna survive.
After years of being away from the word, I returned and found Messianic Judaism. The "baptism" at that time was more of a change in life style mikveh, a turning back to God. It was not a baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To this day, I have never felt a need to re-do my original baptism. It was done in good faith, for the right reason and with the right attitude. It took, and it kept me safe from straying so far away that I'd be lost forever.
Sometimes unconventionality is the mode to get things done.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Thank you. You did some homework!Thanks, I found it, your Rabbi's ministry sounds like an interesting one, good to hear he is feeling healthy enough to start a third congregation!
Absolutely not! You don't have to do any such thing to be Messianic. The only differences between Messianics and Christians is that they observe the feasts and festivals and they don't observe the pegan based holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Christians and Messianics believe and strongly preach Yeshua as the messiah in every aspect and that in fact is the key to salvation. Everything else is preference. I choose to observe the festivals because it is written "these are God's appointments for this and every generation to come." Therefore, I find no way to talk myself out of doing them. However, it is NOT necessary unto one's salvation through Yeshua.Goodness me, I've just woken up and you guys have added so many pages to this thread! I asked about the conversion process to the Messianic Movement because conversion means, quite literally, giving up everything of one faith and taking up a totally new faith.
I fail to see how, therefore, one can convert from Christianity to Messianic Judaism / Gentilism! What you are saying is that I have given up G_d and Yeshua, had a bathe in a pool and taken G_d and Yeshua into my life again.
Forgive me, but that is just stupid! What is the point? Baptism, as has been pointed out, can only be in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as the Scripture says in a few places (John's baptism of repentance was not enough).
Yedida - I was thrown out of the UK Methodist Church at 11 and didn't go back to Church for 10 years! My crime: my brother and I had been out playing and had dirty shoes on! That happened in the Church and we cannot deny it, but the Church, on the whole, is very different now if people shop around. Let's not hang it for offences of the past.
Fancy meeting you in here. Now I know where YOU went!The messianic Jews are knowledgeable about the traditions that flowed out of Judaism and they alone can appreciate the consideration that The Christ was the Elijah returned in 32AD.
Our congregation sees this clearly since the Tradition of Seven Miracles told the jews long before 32AD that Elijah would be recognized by the miracles he woyld perform.
Consider these miracles and check the scriotures for more:
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.
Absolutely not! You don't have to do any such thing to be Messianic. The only differences between Messianics and Christians is that they observe the feasts and festivals and they don't observe the pegan based holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Christians and Messianics believe and strongly preach Yeshua as the messiah in every aspect and that in fact is the key to salvation. Everything else is preference. I choose to observe the festivals because it is written "these are God's appointments for this and every generation to come." Therefore, I find no way to talk myself out of doing them. However, it is NOT necessary unto one's salvation through Yeshua.
The Mikvah (Baptism) is not like the Christian baptism in that one can do it every day if they feel it is necessary. It is a spiritual choice one makes to cleanse, renew, dedicate before the Lord. The traditional Christian baptism is done unto salvation as an outward statement of faith. I did this when I became saved at the age of 9 and would NEVER recount it. My salvation came at this time and my statement of faith through baptism was essential.
Ok...I'm confused! I am not sure exactly what you are responding to so I am going to clarify what I have said.Had you read the posts correctly you would see that I was commenting on your post where you said you had converted to the Messianic movement. The definition I gave for conversion is 100% correct. The post you wrote, and to which I responded, claimed that you had converted from Christianity to a Messianic faith - that is a nonsense, as I said, for the reasons I gave, and as you seem to agree, so I am not too sure why you seem to want to object to my post? You even make the claim, yourself, on your CF profile that you converted from Christianity to Messianic, so why do you now deny it?
Why would you never tell anyone about your Baptism? Seems to me to be just the sort of witness that's needed. Christian Baptism is NOT for salvation (except for the more high Church traditions). For most Christian Churches it is the means by which you become a part of the world-wide Church but it is, often, a pre-requisite for joining a local fellowship as that means that you have a say in how that fellowship operates, so it is important that only committed people are admitted to voting membership.
Ok...I'm confused! I am not sure exactly what you are responding to so I am going to clarify what I have said.
I converted to Messianic this year whereby I participated in a Mikvah as an outward expression of my desire to convert and an outward commitment to observe the festivals and laws to the best of my ability. This mikvah did not make me Messianic. Rather, it was an act of commitment between myself and God. The act of mikvah did not make me any more Messianic than reciting 100 hail Mary's would make me Catholic.
For me becoming Messianic is a completion of my relationship with God but not through any outward ritualistic event, rather an inward reflection and new understanding of truth. My desire is to touch God's heart through obedience, devotion, maintain a humble spirit and to perhaps help someone find their way to him.
I hope this clarifies my stance.
So what you are saying is that Christians don't convert to Messianics. They just adopt a different way of thinking?You said it again - that you "converted."
Conversion is going from Judaism to Hinuism, from Islam to Buddhiism, from Christianity to Judaism, etc. All you did was change your view of Christianity, you did not really step outside of it, at least not the major tenets of it. You just switched lanes, now you're in the faster restricted lane, a whole lot less traffic, less on-ramps to it and less off-ramps from it, but it's the self-same highway that you were on to begin with if you were Christian.
I think what is confusing is the term "conversion". How can a ChristianYou said it again - that you "converted."
Conversion is going from Judaism to Hinuism, from Islam to Buddhiism, from Christianity to Judaism, etc. All you did was change your view of Christianity, you did not really step outside of it, at least not the major tenets of it. You just switched lanes, now you're in the faster restricted lane, a whole lot less traffic, less on-ramps to it and less off-ramps from it, but it's the self-same highway that you were on to begin with if you were Christian.
Really? I always thought it was. Why would there be a need to
do it more than once?
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