Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy

[zhilan]

I'm still wondering why Orthodoxy would be incompatible if the issue at heart is Torah observance. As I pointed out, the Ethiopian Orthodox already don't eat pork, circumscize, often worship on Saturday (or both), follow OT laws on menstration, etc so clearly a Torah observant lifestyle is possible within the realms of Orthodoxy. What is it that prevents the from being acceptable to you?

I think in Orthodoxy there is a lot more Jewish influence than in Catholicism. Even in "typical" Orthodoxy (such as Greek Orthodox etc) certain cannons such as fasting rules say that we cannot keep a full fast on the Sabbath in observance of OT laws.

Why can't someone be liturgical and Torah observant?

 

[stone]

What does liturgical mean?

 

[zhilan]

Any way, by liturgical I mean churches that follow a ligurgical or aposotilic form of woships such as Catholics, Orthodox (EO or OO), Anglicans, possibly Lutherns.

 

[stone]

Do you mean for it to be organized to where all the shul's on earth are reading the same scriptures on shabbat?

 

[varsity]

I have visited the Eastern Orthodox many times. Their services are striking, particularly the Pascha service.

If the Ethiopian Orthodox services are similar to those of the Russian Orthodox, the veneration of icons would be off putting to most Jews.

 

[zhilan]

I have visited the Eastern Orthodox many times. Their services are striking, particularly the Pascha service.

If the Ethiopian Orthodox services are similar to those of the Russian Orthodox, the veneration of icons would be off putting to most Jews.

That's true, but at the same, Orthodox follow customs when it comes to icons that would appeal much more to Jews than other Christians. We do not depict God the Father or God the Holy Spirit becuase the bible says not to, but we depict Jesus becuase He revealed Himself to us. However, he can only be depicted in a certain style representative of what He would actually look like (none of the Jesus as a mophing figure depending on your congregation or like in one of the cathedrals in Los Angeles where he is a black woman or something ). Also, Orthodox don't have statues.

I'm not trying to suggest all MJs should adopt Orthodoxy or anything, I'm just asking why Torah observance is not compatiable with ligurgical Christianity, especially Orthodoxy.

 

[Athaliamum]

but we depict Jesus becuase He revealed Himself to us. However, he can only be depicted in a certain style representative of what He would actually look like

Why would it not be acceptable - you answered your own questiong right there. G-d is explicit -

Exodus 20:4-6 (Mitzvah N2)
"You are not to make for yourself a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on earth or in the water below the shoreline..."

Deut. 16:22 (Mitzvah N11)
"Likewise, do not set up a standing-stone; YHVH your G-s hates such things."

Leviticus 26:1 (Mitzvah N12)
"You are not to...erect a carved statue or a standing stone, or place any carved stone anywhere in your land in order to bow down to it. I am YHVH your G-d."

These verses say do not make anything in order to worship it, even with the best of intentions, even if it is the intention to represent the one and true G-d not a false one. Have a look at Acts 17:22-31.

Yeshua is G-d is he not, making a statue of him would be making "the visible image of the invisible G-d" into one of these images would it not? So on this point I would say there is a big difference.

"Do no bring something abhorrent into your house, or you will share in the curse that is on it; instead, you are to detest it completely, loathe it utterly; for it is set apart for destruction."
Deut. 7:25-26

 

[Sephania]

I don't want to post anything to entice those not holding a MJ icon to debate, but I will just ask zhilan about the images of G-d.

So you said that there are no images of G-d the father or the Ruach HaKodesh ( HS) because they are not visable, so really you can't then make something visable that isn't , right? So because Yeshua is G-d come in the flesh at a specific time, that is considered allowed?

Then I would have to ask what the EO church believes regarding why G-d himself buried Moshe so that no one would know where his grave is?

 

[zhilan]

Why would it not be acceptable - you answered your own questiong right there. G-d is explicit -

Exodus 20:4-6 (Mitzvah N2)
"You are not to make for yourself a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on earth or in the water below the shoreline..."

Deut. 16:22 (Mitzvah N11)
"Likewise, do not set up a standing-stone; YHVH your G-s hates such things."

Leviticus 26:1 (Mitzvah N12)
"You are not to...erect a carved statue or a standing stone, or place any carved stone anywhere in your land in order to bow down to it. I am YHVH your G-d."

These verses say do not make anything in order to worship it, even with the best of intentions, even if it is the intention to represent the one and true G-d not a false one. Have a look at Acts 17:22-31.

Yeshua is G-d is he not, making a statue of him would be making "the visible image of the invisible G-d" into one of these images would it not? So on this point I would say there is a big difference.

"Do no bring something abhorrent into your house, or you will share in the curse that is on it; instead, you are to detest it completely, loathe it utterly; for it is set apart for destruction."
Deut. 7:25-26

Wow, harsh....

I wasn't trying to evangelize, just trying to explain a similarity. We believe that becuase God revealed Himself in Jesus we can depict Him. We also have a tradition that Jesus actually made the first icon of Himself, but again, this is our tradition and I'm not trying to say you need to accept it, I was just trying to point out a place where we are more compatible than mainstrem Protestant Christianity (which does depict God the Father, and God the Son and the Holy Spirit).

From my understanding there is a range of belief within MJs from non-Trinitarians to MJs who practice Orthodox Judaism in their Torah observance to those who take a more Reformed Judaism and don't necessarily follow every single OT law. My question is, if this is OK within the realms of MJs, why do you say that an Orthodox Christian who observes the Torah is nothing like you? What would you call an Orthodox who obersves the Torah?

 

[zhilan]

I don't want to post anything to entice those not holding a MJ icon to debate, but I will just ask zhilan about the images of G-d.

So you said that there are no images of G-d the father or the Ruach HaKodesh ( HS) because they are not visable, so really you can't then make something visable that isn't , right? So because Yeshua is G-d come in the flesh at a specific time, that is considered allowed?

Then I would have to ask what the EO church believes regarding why G-d himself buried Moshe so that no one would know where his grave is?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question? You are asking why we don't depict God the Father but will depect Jesus? Or Moses?

 

[zhilan]

I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't want to debate and that I'm inquiring about things with you becuase I believe, as Jesus said, that He did not come to abolish the law, so I enjoy posting and fellowshiping here. If that hasn't been clear I apologize.

The bottom line on the issue is that the God says no graven images, but icons are not graven and we see precedents for this even in the OT and among early Jews. But as I said, I'm not trying to debate. I'm not trying to tell you you should worship with icons or in an Orthodox way. I'm not here to even talk about icons, that just came up as a side note.

My question is where do you place an Orthodox christian who is Torah observant? Is there a place within MJs for liturgical Christians?

 

[Wags]

All christians observe some of Torah - most just don't know it. (And many would deny that they keep any of "the law").

To most messianics being "torah observant" means more than just obeying some of Torah, it means striving to be obeident to all of Torah and to the spirit of Torah.

If one does not keep the Appointed Times, or Shabbat, two of the major things that sets messianics apart - how can that person claim to be messianic?

Would an orhdox christian that kept the feasts, the 7th day sabbath, kosher etc be welcomed and allowed to stay in fellowship with their chruch? As many here have experienced - probably not for long.

 

[Athaliamum]

My question is where do you place an Orthodox christian who is Torah observant?

I guess what I am saying no so very clearly is that my PO is that if they are doing things like following the Orthodox theology of icons then they aren't really Torah observant. Torah observant believers would not use icons, they're mutually exclusive. There's is more then just icons within the Orthodox theology that are mutually exclusive to Torah in this way. That of course doesn't mean that Orthodox threology is all wrong but it definitely has areas which are against Torah. So it is actually kind of a strange question to ask. All I can say that the Torah should be followed. If there is a way to follow it within the EO setting without it conflicting in any way there shouldn't be a huge issue. But I can't see how it wouldn't conflict.

 

[zhilan]

\Would an orhdox christian that kept the feasts, the 7th day sabbath, kosher etc be welcomed and allowed to stay in fellowship with their chruch? As many here have experienced - probably not for long.

As I've been trying to say, there is no reason they wouldn't. And I pointed out the Ethiopians for just this purpose. The Ethiopians believe in 7th day sabbath worship, they believe in dietary laws, they believe in purity laws, they believe in circumscision, they believe men and women must sit on opposite sides of the church and that women must cover their heads, they believe that we must take off our shoes when entering holy ground, they believe in Torah observance and they are fully a part of Orthodoxy.

I just don't understand why there is not room for an liturigical Christians here. I love the OT, I love the Torah, I love the NT...I dont think I'm so horrible...

But if there is no room for me, I suppose I can mosey on out....

 

[visionary]

Forgive the reactions you have received so far. You know what they say about those who have been burned, they tend to be more sensitive to heat.

I think I see what you are alluding to, you can see more similarities with those things you have pointed out and want to know if we can see them to. I see the similarities that you have pointed out and think that is great.

As it was pointed out, the discrepencies were more striking and brought forth to you by us. While they were not significant in your eyes they were in ours. It is hard to understand that which is traditional for you would be repugnant to someone else when a lot of things are held in common and should help to make a transitional flow easier between us.

Just as you are not willing to give up the Orthodoxy.

Christians of the Eastern Churches call themselves Orthodox. This description comes to us from the fifth century and has two meanings which are closely related. The first definition means true teaching. The Orthodox Church believes that she has maintained and handed down the Christian faith, free from error and distortion from the days of the Apostles. The second definition, which is actually the more preferred, means true praise. To bless, praise, and glorify God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--is the fundamental purpose of the Church. All her activities, even her doctrinal formulations, are directed toward this goal.http://www.transfiguration.org/orthodoxy/intro_orth.html

This concept of "The Orthodox Church believes that she has maintained and handed down the Christian faith, free from error and distortion from the days of the Apostles." is where those of us, who have seen the errors and removed ourselves from believing in them, have difficulty with the idea that orthodoxy ideology is correct at the foundation of "free from error or distortion from the days of apostles". You will have to forgive us if we disagree with that statement.

While those things that you have pointed out that we have in common are good solid foundations for similarities, it is the other side of the coin which makes the difference. Let me try to explain. You can look at the side of the coin that shows "in God we trust" and then flip the coin and see that the newer versions of the coin no longer carry the same images as they use to. The coins are now promoting the different states. This may be a poor example as the coins can buy the same things are are treated the same. But let's say that the maker of the second coin had no legal right to make the changes, then what, should we continue to trade and barter with the coins which have no legal value in the Lord's kingdom. Should we not discern the differences and stop the time, energy and faith wasted in something which is illegitimate?

May I thank you for your hand of friendship offered in this thread. Please do not think we are slapping it away. I want you to feel welcome. I want to apologize for the attitude extended so far. Maybe we are overreacting. I think we are misunderstanding where you are coming from and where you are heading with this thread.

I get the feeling that you are clinging to orthodoxy and yet see the similarities that you have pointed out in the posts on MJ and orthodoxy. I have noticed it too and made mention of the findings myself on another thread called "messianic history" because I believe that the remnants of the truth are still shining through the traditions that have persisted through the ages within eastern orthodoxy especially in some of the churches you mentioned.

It reminds me of the true story movie "U570" where an american sub finds and in battle captures a russian sub, but the toll on their own boat is too much. They take over the russian sub and now have to get to safety without getting knocked off by friendly or enemy fire.

So it is understandable when you know the catholic hostile history on it's takeover and subsequent changes that have changed the face of the church and understand how so much of the truth which has been defaced over the course of the last two thousand years is still kept by the eastern churches. Actually amazing when you consider how many faiths were burned to non-existence especially in the dark ages. I find the history of the eastern churches fascinating, but know that it may have a tad bit behind the catholic churches in changing the truth into greek and roman versions within/by the second century. I wish they did keep more of the original.

 

[zhilan]

Visionary,

Thanks for your kindness. I appreciate your words, and I see what you are saying. I know that sometimes people come into thread and try to bait people by starting threads that are seemingly innocent but they are really trying to make a point. People do that a lot on OBOB and TAW too, so I can understand people being suspicious. But I'm really not trying to make any point. I'm not trying to make some sort of show that Orthodoxy is better or anything like that. I was looking at it as sort of how within the Christian section each groups has their own home, but then there are also specific sections for women, men, people in the military, people who live in different parts of the US, etc. becuase for certain things people want to fellowship with their "own" group and other things people want to fellowship with other christians who share other similiaries with them (even if not the same faith). I'm Orthodox. I love Orthodoxy. I believe in their theology. I also believe that modern Christianity seems to have "forgotten" that Jesus didn't abolish the law. Jesus was circumsized. Jesus kept kosher, etc. so I like coming here because I agree with you guys on that stuff, even if my theology is Orthodox not Protestant-Chrisitan. If you aren't familiar with Orthodoxy, you may assume that like Catholicism, everything you must believe is defined. But this is not the case. To be Orthodox you must believe in the 7 counsels, but much of the rest is what we call "pious opinions." Orthodoxy defines what you must believe for salvation, but much of the other stuff is sort of left up the individual (usually within the guidance of ones spiritual father). That's why you can have a wide range and the Ethiopians are still fully within the range of Orthodoxy. Does that make sense? Anyway, I think I'm rambling. I hope this makes my intentions clear. As I said, if it's not ok, I can stop posting here. I'm not trying to cuase trouble, just looking for fellowship.

 

[visionary]

By the way, I too am delighted to see those things which we are similar are important parts, like shabbat, dietary laws, and the feast of the Lord.

 

[Athaliamum]

Vis, the wise and knowledgeable vis. Put me in my place why don't you.

Please understand zhilan I was not meaning to sound like it was a personal attack, though I guess faith is personal, hence the emotion behind it. And vis is right, once burned twice shy, I have got sick and tired over the last few months that every orthodox christian I've interacted with so far has told me I don't have faith and am going to go to hell because I don't subscribe directly to their understanding of scripture. Kind of put's you off, if you know what I mean. So I guess I see that symbol and think "here we go again" which is not the correct thing to do.

That said however, doesn't mean that I can agree with you on some topics. As I said in my posts they are my personal opinions and may not be shared by other MJ believers. I see some glaring errors in belief within the Orthodox theology that I simply can't say that they are ok and I think that is really what you want to hear but I can't give that to you. My error was that I did not deal with them in a loving manner, for that I am sorry.

As it seems this head cold off mine is starting to effect good conduct and make me a cranky old cow, I'll sign off on that one.

 

[zhilan]

Vis, the wise and knowledgeable vis. Put me in my place why don't you.

Please understand zhilan I was not meaning to sound like it was a personal attack, though I guess faith is personal, hence the emotion behind it. And vis is right, once burned twice shy, I have got sick and tired over the last few months that every orthodox christian I've interacted with so far has told me I don't have faith and am going to go to hell because I don't subscribe directly to their understanding of scripture. Kind of put's you off, if you know what I mean. So I guess I see that symbol and think "here we go again" which is not the correct thing to do.

That said however, doesn't mean that I can agree with you on some topics. As I said in my posts they are my personal opinions and may not be shared by other MJ believers. I see some glaring errors in belief within the Orthodox theology that I simply can't say that they are ok and I think that is really what you want to hear but I can't give that to you. My error was that I did not deal with them in a loving manner, for that I am sorry.

As it seems this head cold off mine is starting to effect good conduct and make me a cranky old cow, I'll sign off on that one.

I'm really sorry to hear that. Was it Orthodox on here or in real life? Whoever it was, I can assure you if they told you that they were not in line with Orthodox teaching. It is very much against Orthodox theology to tell someone they are going to hell. The Orthodox church always says "we know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't." Orthodoxy has a firm belief that one should worry about themsleves and their own sins rather than the shortcomings of others. I'm really sorry if you've had bad experiences with Orthodox, but rest assured, if they told you that they are representatives of our fallen nature and not of Orthodox teaching. We are all sinners after all.

 

[visionary]

Orthodoxy defines what you must believe for salvation, but much of the other stuff is sort of left up the individual (usually within the guidance of ones spiritual father).

We believe that the only spiritual father one should have is our Heavenly Father. The guidance of earthly spiritual fathers is not a sure thing and we advise against such thinking, even of our own who have shared a wealth of spirtual insights and biblical related information. We all depend on a personal relationship with Yeshua, with emphasis on personal.

We also do not want orthodoxy defining salvation. Sorry, but that is again personal, just between Yeshua and ourselves. What we have found, each in our own spiritual journey with Yeshua, is that we came to this place in our spiritual journey and have found that Yeshua has lead us all here. Just as you have found the similarities and came to this thread excited about the spiritual find. So at one time, we also discovered others who see that the Word of God is alive and working in the lives of people changing them to live more in line with the Word of God in lifestyle and thinking. The more that we study the Word of God the more we discovered things of God that do not jive with orthodoxy.