Messianic History

visionary · Jul 20, 2011

Fred V B said:
There is mention of Believers meeting on the first day of the week, and that was fine, even in recognition of the Messiah's resurrection. It was not thought of as a replacement of the Sabbath or the new day appointed as sabbath. Positions like that came centuries later, not from sure scriptural support.

true...... and the more history you dig into regarding this whole controversy the more you find those who stand on the Word of God and those who point to their particular church traditions and elders' say so...

FredVB · Jul 20, 2011

visionary said:
the more history you dig into regarding this whole controversy the more you find those who stand on the Word of God and those who point to their particular church traditions and elders' say so...

It holds in all cases, believers should really turn to reading, studying, and learniong from the Word of God, prayerfully and depending on the Spirit of God. They can learn from church, but it should be known to them to measure what they learn theire and elsewhere to what they have found in the Bible.

visionary · Jul 20, 2011

Fred V B said:
It holds in all cases, believers should really turn to reading, studying, and learniong from the Word of God, prayerfully and depending on the Spirit of God. They can learn from church, but it should be known to them to measure what they learn theire and elsewhere to what they have found in the Bible.

Study.. prayerfully.. asking for the Lord's guidance in all matters.. especially of the faith.. for that is where the battle for the soul is.

visionary · Jul 20, 2011

Gracia Singh said:
Another branch of the Messianic Jewish faith flourished in South-West India for about 1400 years, in the Malayali-speaking state of Kerala.

Jews and Hindus already living in the area were evangelized by St. Thomas, and their customs, worship, and identity was uniquely Judeo-Christian.

NSC NETWORK Lifestyle of Kerala Syrian Christians

NSC NETWORK Some of the traditions and rituals among the Syrian Christians of Kerala

These Christians called themselves "Nasrani" or roughly "Nazarenes", worshipped in Aramaic, celebrated the Eastern Syriac liturgy on Saturday, kept kosher, and had Jewish names like Yakob, Simon, Thoma, Yohanan, etc.

Later contact with Portuguese missionaries greatly disrupted their traditions and practices, as many were converted into the Catholic Church, while others sought help from and joined the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Today, the St. Thomas Christians are Assyrian Chruch of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

Thank you for this contribution to the thread..

HIM_In_Me_In_HIM · Jul 29, 2011

church beginnings but now, at the very least, i've had to update my "data-base" of recollection.

yet....i wonder how the early church/MJs/etc got to go to the
same Jerusalem temple that harbored the co-conspirators that
crucified Yeshua? believe we read they did/went there but maybe it was only in the outer courts, or the Gentile section, or,
or, or, because i can't see Ananias & co., peacefully letting them come in w/out any hassle.
Were there other temples in Jerusalem (i assume so) that they may have "taken over"? Do we really know, or is there alot of
assumptions or reliance upon the catholic versions u detested
earlier back in 2006 (visionary, see link, pge 1)?
We know of house to house churches becoming the norm, esp
after the satanic synagogues started the 1st inquistion of MJs
(really, when u get down to it, just a smaller scale perhaps)
killing MJs early on to Pauls time & beyond before history would
ironically (?)turn the tables on the satanic jews few centuries later.

But we dont know how much jewish customs/rituals the early MJ's actually practiced and/or modified post-pentacostal experience, post Sha'ul conversion, post Peter rebuke, post
Jerusalem council, post 70 AD destruction, and post dispersions
to Pella, Cappodicea, et al.
I'm sure they kept a bunch of 'em but Yeshua's teachings was
bound to change what went before He arrived, died, and was
ressurected. Thats how He reads to me anyways. Just cuz He
was jewish doesnt mean He agreed with all things "jewish" as
He put God first, always.

Just some .02 to bring this all back to life once more.

ContraMundum · Jul 29, 2011

visionary said:
true...... and the more history you dig into regarding this whole controversy the more you find those who stand on the Word of God and those who point to their particular church traditions and elders' say so...

Funny....I agree....yet I think my church tradition is the one which stands on the Word of God and your beliefs are wrong.

HIM_In_Me_In_HIM · Jul 30, 2011

typed up a gem a time or two; come back and voila! disappeared.

HIM_In_Me_In_HIM · Jul 30, 2011

why is it that many folks assume that the original 3,000 converts at
pentacost were jews (only)? for we know that this was not long
after the passover feast/festival which garnered a huuuuuuge amt of followers (judeaic) every yr to Jerusalem. they were greeks,
persians, etc. not blue blooded hebrews only.

perhaps some of the 3,000 hadn't yet converted to Judaism yet as
well, yet knew the "truth" when they heard it from Peter and the
rest of Jesus' disciples at pentacost, and so, had only a purer
understanding/acceptance of "the faith" compared to all the old
time jews who were too "indoctrinated" for their own good (perhaps. u know, like christians are dealing with "religion" today
not spirituality).

which brings forth (always) more questions. but these shall suffice
for now.

Original pt was don't get caught up in the ethnocentricity of being
jewish. for being jewish is only a part, not the whole of being a
child of God. (jewish/hebrew, whatever. have a field day with the
semantics of that/it)

Shalom aleichem.

FredVB · Jul 30, 2011

HIM_In_Me_In_HIM said:
why is it that many folks assume that the original 3,000 converts at
pentacost were jews (only)? for we know that this was not long
after the passover feast/festival which garnered a huuuuuuge amt of followers (judeaic) every yr to Jerusalem. they were greeks,
persians, etc. not blue blooded hebrews only.

perhaps some of the 3,000 hadn't yet converted to Judaism yet.

In the Acts of the Apostles, from which we have the account of that, although the people hearing the gospel message on Pentecost were from a number of nations, they may be understood to be Jews, by birth or as converts, as the issue regarding whether to include gentiles coming to the faith in Christ came later, after the first case which was said to be Cornelius. So the preceding Christian believers were Jewish, and for a good long while afterwards there were Jewish believers in Christ predominately, I am quite sure there were always some.

visionary · Jul 30, 2011

Fred V B said:
In the Acts of the Apostles, from which we have the account of that, although the people hearing the gospel message on Pentecost were from a number of nations, they may be understood to be Jews, by birth or as converts, as the issue regarding whether to include gentiles coming to the faith in Christ came later, after the first case which was said to be Cornelius. So the preceding Christian believers were Jewish, and for a good long while afterwords there were Jewish believers in Christ predominately, I am quite sure there were always some.

Don't forget the Eunuch from Ethiopia.. whom was baptized later on his way home from celebrating Pentecost.

Tishri1 · Jul 31, 2011

I just added the link to our sticky thread on books and websites....thanks Vis

visionary · Aug 1, 2011

Jewish believers have been called by many names, among them Notzrim (Nazarenes), Ebionim (Ebionites meaning poor of this world, but rich in faith), maaminim (believers), minim (heretics), anusim (forced converts), meshumadim (apostates), Hebrew Christians, Jewish Christians. In the last thirty years, the term of choice that has gained ascendancy both in the Diaspora and in Israel is Meshichim Yehudim (Messianic Jews) which both retains the identity of Yeshua as Messiah and the Jewish identity. Thus, the faith of this regrafted branch is called Messianic Judaism, vying for recognition as a legitimate faith for the Jewish Nation, not for a place among the other brands of Judaism.

Israel In Prophecy » KeyIssues/Rabbinic Judaism vs. Christianity in the 1st Century?

aniello · Aug 2, 2011

just bumping to make finding and reading easier. Looking for origin on which to anchor.

visionary · Aug 2, 2011

aniello said:
just bumping to make finding and reading easier. Looking for origin on which to anchor.

I am too.. if you find the origin on which to anchor please add it to these finding.. it will help solidify that which by faith we know to be true.

visionary · Aug 3, 2011

There is a book written on this very subject. Amazon.com: Nazarene Jewish Christianity (9789652237989): Ray Pritz: Books

visionary · Aug 3, 2011

This early group of followers became know as the Notzerim (also transliterated as Notzrim or Nozrim) or Nazarenes, just why is a matter of some debate among scholars. They were, as the actions of James/Yaakov the brother of Jesus/Yehoshua in the Christian New Testament demonstrate, Torah observant Jews.

Who were the Nazarenes (Jewish-'Christians') and when did they become Heretics

visionary · Oct 14, 2011

Za'atar said:
A few interesting writings to look at what the early Nazarene's believed in -

They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.
Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest they are not in accord with the Christians.
Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4

They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.
Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.
Jerome, On. Is. 8:14

Thank you for allowing me to post this on this thread..

visionary · Oct 21, 2011

Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein - Why I believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah

Why I Believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah

The Story of Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein

From an account written over 90 years ago

visionary · Oct 21, 2011

A Jew who accept Jesus without Judaism included.

1506 - Alfonso de Zamora - Rabbi
Alfonso de Zamora, a Rabbi, publicly declared his faith in Jesus in 1506. Working with Paul Nunez Coronel and Alfonso d'Alcala, two other Jewish believers, he uses his knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Chaldean, and other languages to help develop a six-volume multilingual work known as the Polyglot Bible. He also writes a Hebrew grammar, a Hebrew dictionary, a dictionary of the Old Testament, and a treatise on Hebrew spelling.

visionary · Oct 21, 2011

A Jew who became a protestant.

1530 - Immanuel Tremellius - Hebrew Scholar, University Professor
Immanuel Tremellius came to faith in Messiah around 1530 and became Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge University in 1548. He later becomes Professor of Theology at Heidelberg, where he produces a Latin Old Testament that is published in Frankfurt in the 1570s and London in 1580. With Theodore Beza's Latin New Testament attached to it, the Tremellius Bible is the Protestant contender against the Vulgate issued by Pope Sixtus V in a Reformation vs. Counter Reformation battle of Latin bibles.

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