Messianic History?

[Dominus Fidelis]

The first Christians were Jews that believed in Jesus as the Messiah. So in a way it could be said that Messianic Judaism started in AD 33.

Given that fact...is there any evidence of a separate* Messianic Judaism Church existing from that time until the present time?

Someone commented on that awhile back and I'd like to see the evidence if there is evidence.

I also heard that Messianic Judaism as it exists today started as a Protestant offshoot in the 1960's, so which is correct?

Thanks for any info...I won't reply so as not to be seen as arguing. I just want to see the evidence.

*Separate meaning a Church outside of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I found this Messianic site that says that there were Messianic "churches" from the beginning of the Messiah's teachings until about 700 AD.

When did the early Messianic Jews disappear and why?

Surprisingly, Messianic Judaism continued to flourish well into the seventh century A.D., in spite of the many pressures on the Jews to give up their Messianic faith.

First of all, the Rabbis pressured Messianic Jews to relinquish their faith in Yeshua as the Messiah. In addition, Gentile Christianity wanted Messianic Jews to abandon their Jewishness. Finally, in the seventh century A.D. the rise of Islam caused great pressure for Messianic Jews as well.

Despite all this, the real reason for the disappearance of early Messianic Judaism was simply that Messianic Jews lost their “vision.” They no longer saw that it was important to remain Jewish after accepting Yeshua. This was because the majority of believers in Yeshua were now members of Gentile Christianity. Consequently, Messianic Jews assimilated completely into the Gentile Christian Church.

Source: http://www.familybible.org/FAQ/WhatIsMJ.htm#2A

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

The site then listed the following...

When did the modern movement of Messianic Judaism begin?

Even though Messianic Judaism, as a distinct movement, faded from the ancient scene in the seventh century A.D., there have always been Jewish believers in the Messiah Yeshua. However, beginning in the early 1800’s, ever-increasing numbers of Jewish people began to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. The modern movement came to fruition after 1967, when tens of thousands of Jewish people suddenly accepted Yeshua.

Why 1967? Because that is when Jerusalem came back into Jewish hands in fulfillment of a prophecy given by Yeshua in the Brit Hadashah (Luke 21:24). This prophecy indicated that when Jerusalem was restored to the Jewish people God would turn once again to His Jewish people in national salvation. Messianic Judaism is a prophetic movement and a direct result of the outpouring of God’s Holy Spirit upon His Chosen People (Hosea 3:4-5, Joel 2:28-29, Deuteronomy 30:1-10).

Would you all agree with this assessment?

 

[Plan 9]

Red Alert! Cheesy pop-ups await you on that site. The Christian Soulmates Chatroom was my favorite, but before I could join to cruise the internet world for Christian singles, my computer froze. I had to reboot twice.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Really? Sorry bout that. I have popups disabled so I didnt encounter them.

 

[Plan 9]

DoF, Does this mean you aren't joining the Christian Singles chat room??!!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

DoF, Does this mean you aren't joining the Christian Singles chat room??!!

Sorry, you are out of luck.

 

[Plan 9]

These folks are loosely connected with The Messianic-Jewish Alliance of America. Is anyone familiar with that organization?

http://www.mjaa.org/

 

[Toney]

Sorry, you are out of luck.

Defens, welcome home.

When you have time, drop by Ariadne's Cafe. I would like to ask you something. Cheers.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Ok will do...anyone want to answer my opening question?

Thanks!

 

[Henaynei]

These folks are loosely connected with The Messianic-Jewish Alliance of America. Is anyone familiar with that organization?

http://www.mjaa.org/

The MJAA reports itself to be the largest MJ organization in the world - and they do have members, affilates and ministries in many places around the world. They *could* be called a representation of the *mainstream,* IF such a thing could be said to exist in MJism. They are very good at not taking a stand on many decisive issues and are masters at the "big tent" philosophy.

They do have a couple very active ministries of support to Russia and to Israel.

They are one of the oldest modern MJ organizations, their roots go back to the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, back in the early 1900's.

 

[Plan 9]

Sorry, you are out of luck.

I had a feeling you would stand me up at the chatroom.
*sings "He left me crying at the chatroom..."*

I'll bet you're already married...or going into the Priesthood. You Catholic guys would never be caught dead joining "Lowered Expectations" singles clubs. LOL

Are you from the U.S., DoF? If so, do you know anything about the IL Senate Republican candidate, Jack Ryan?

 

[simchat_torah]

I have some "messianic" history posts around here somewhere... I'll see if I can search for them when I have some time today (or the almighty master searcher Justin might do it too).

is there any evidence of a separate* Messianic Judaism Church existing from that time until the present time?

I'm not sure what you mean by "seperate" but yes... the Netzarim (messianics) existed as a sect within Judaism until at least the 13th century if not longer. They were apparently physically wiped out by the church for heretical beliefs (holding onto Torah and Yeshua). The Netzarim is what is referred to in Acts as the name of the Believers. The word "christian" was originally a derrogatory slang term used to incite the believers used by the Romans, meaning "little christs" or "little Messiahs". It wasn't until a rather massive influx of Gentiles came that the term "christian" picked up momentum within the movement. Up until that point, they were known amongst themselves as "Netzarim" or Nazarenes (in English).

As well, the modern Messianic movement can easily date itself back to the mid-1800's with a sparatic sprinkling of messianic congregations up to the 14th century prior. No direct connection can distinctly be made between the Netzarim and the sparatic congregations thorugh the centuries up to the mid-1800's because our history books just aren't that exhaustive.

I'll see if I can pull up or find those posts I made on Messianic history. (and if Jusitn finds them first, kudos to him).

shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

I also heard that Messianic Judaism as it exists today started as a Protestant offshoot in the 1960's, so which is correct?

I believe they are referring to Jews for Jesus, which really isn't necessarily a Messianic movement per se. J4J was originally an outreach ministry started by the Assembly of G-d, but them became its own full fledged ministry. The current leader of J4J is a Baptist preacher.

Many messianics try to seperate themselves from J4J as it is pretty much a protestant church, but J4J will tell you otherwise.

Its a personal call as to what you label J4J.

Shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

I'll just start pasting them (the messianic history posts) here:


In reply to the comment once stated that there were no messianic congregations prior to 1960 I stated:

I always find it sad that most Americans can't see past their own country. Even more so, the HCAA and MJAA found their origins at the turn of the 20th century. The Chernoffs were by far not the 'pioneers' of the MJ movement. Yes, they did a lot of work to further it... here in the states, but that's about the extent of their credit.

They were not the founders, and as well, this is completely ignoring many of the messianic congregations and movements that were already globally established.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

There seems to be some debate lately whether Messianic Jews should (or do) reject the term 'christian'. To be honest, I never 'rejected' the term, but opted to not use it because of what it has come to mean today.

However, this recent discussion sparked my interest and I began reading a number of materials out of an honest inquiry of the word... and why should I reject it or claim it. Personally, I wanted to get to the bottom of it because I didn't want to offend those who felt they were following their 'true calling' as christians, and yet I didn't want to offend those who feel the word should be tossed out of our vocabulary as descriptive of a Messianic.

So, the Quest begins.

I started with one of the more definitive works in MJ'ism, David Stern's Messianic Jewish Manifesto:

According to Scripture the word “Christian” does not denote Jewish believers in Yeshua at all. The New Testament calls them followers of “this way” (Acts 9:2, 22:4) and “Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5)… the New Testament does not call Jewish believers “Christians”. According to New Testament usage the term “Christian” is reserved for Gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

Acts 11:19-26 tells how in Antioch some Jewish believers… did not limit their proclamation of Yeshua as the Messiah to Jews, as had been the norm previously, but broke new ground… Many of these Gentiles came to believe… the other Gentiles in Antioch… coined the word christianoi (Christians),… Thus the term “Christian” was invented by Gentiles to describe Gentiles in a Gentile environment. The New Testament tells us explicitly that “the disciples
were first called Christians in Antioch.” [Acts 11:26]

*Messianic Jewish Manifesto; David Stern; p. 32*

It seems from this context that 'christian' was explicitly used to describe the Gentile converts. Stern continues:

“Messianic” comes from the Hebrew mashiach, which means "anointed.” “Christian” comes from Greek christos, which is the [Greek] New Testament’s translation of mashiach AND MEANS THE SAME THING. …in the New Testament the term “Christian,” which appears only three times, apparently denotes being a Gentile believer in Yeshua, so that scripturally “Jewish Christian” is a contradiction in terms.

*Messianic Jewish Manifesto; David Stern; p. 20*

Here, Stern makes a point that it is almost 'wrong' to label a Jewish believer as 'christian'.

It was said that Martin Chernoff, an important figure in Messianic History, felt that the true term was 'Hebrew Christian'. Chernoff either changed his mind while he was in presidency of the MJAA (previously known as the HCAA) or the quote used was taken out of context. It was Chernoff himself that spearheaded a movement in the early 70's (while he was president of MJAA) to change the name from Hebrew Christian Alliance of America to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. In an effort to find meaning in the traditions of Judaism, to define the movement, and to incorporate more substanance of Jewish worship, Chernoff and many at MJAA officially changed the name and began shaping the movement into a more Jewish scope... what they felt was more true to it's origins.

Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA (1971-1975), and led the group towards Messianic Judaism (1) (his sons, Joel and David, also served as Presidents - 1979-1983 and 1983-1987, respectively).(2) In June of 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA); however, a two-thirds majority vote was necessary to effect the name change, and only 62% was received at this time. Two years later, though, there was enough support, and in June of 1975, the name was officially changed to the MJAA. (3)

(1)Robert I. Winer, The Calling: The History of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (Wynnewood PA: MJAA, 1990),pp. 47-49.
(2)p. 59
(2) p. 50.

Why did they make this name change? Some point to the fact that 'christian' was not representative of Jewish believers. Others, including Chernoff and his sons, felt that a more passionate direction needed to be established towards traditional Judaism.

"the name change was significant as more than just a semantical expression;it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity."

David A. Rausch, Messianic Judaism: Its History, Theology, and Polity (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen, 1982), p. 77

So, out of a sense of definition the name was changed... not just an ourward name, but a name that would affect the inward expression of worship and relationship. David Stern has been quoted numerous times on the following statement, and is probably his most famous:

I am religious. Not Orthodox, not Conservative, not Reform, not Reconstructionist but Messianic.

He made it obvious that he did not express his faith through the term 'christian' but instead opted to declare Messianic. He even went so far as to contrast messianic with other sects of Judaism, not with christianity.

I haven't even begun to tap into the differences between what christianity has become today and what the original messianic Judaism stood for. That's a whole other discussion that would take some depth. I'm focusing more on the modern view in this thread (though I'm sure that's going to change... lol)

Now, my questions to everyone here are:

How do you/we label ourselves?
Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?

Well, I hope this is a good kick off for discussion.
Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

In reply to a charge that Messianic Judaism only finds its origins in "southern baptist" movements, I stated:

I have never heard of MJ'ism being traced back to Southern Baptists. I suppose if anyone wants to trace it to a specific movement in the US, and this is a GIANT STRETCH! One might point to the Assemblies of G-d. Jews for J-sus originally was a missions movement in the AG'ers and then sprout out from there and became it's own ministry. However, hardly a messianic congregation in the US (and this is strictly limited to US btw) can even trace it's roots to J4J's.

If you would really like to blow off their socks... point to some of the following messianics as the 'original' modern movement origins:
Rov Isaac (Yitzhak) Lichtenstein- early 1880's

Rov Isaac (Yitzhak) Lichtenstein- early 1880's. A respected District Rabbi in Hungary, he picked up an old copy of the ReNewed Covenant (i.e. New Testament) and began reading it. As he later remarked, "Not the half had been told me of the greatness, power and glory of this Book, formerly a sealed book to me. All seemed so new, and yet it did me good, like the sight of an old friend who has laid aside his dusty, travel-worn garments, and appears in festive attire, like a bridegroom in wedding robes, or a bride adorned with her jewels."

Not too long after that, Rabbi Lichtenstein starting teaching from the Newer Testament to his synagogue and people. Because of his reputation and position, the Synod of Rabbis in Hungary cited him to appear before them and explain himself. After prolonged discussion and much interaction with Rabbi Lichtenstein, the assembled rabbis demanded that he should resign his position and be formally baptized. he replied that he had no intention of joining any church. He had found in the Newer Testament the true completion of Judaism; so he would remain as before with his congregation, and preach it in the synagogue. And, that's what he did despite persecution and abuse. From his official place as District Rabbi he continued to teach and to preach from the Newer Testament (i.e. "Renewed Covenant" mentioned by Yerme'yahu haNovi, Jeremiah 31:31). This was a testimony to the strong attachment of his own community and the attentiveness of his synagogue.

Soon, Rabbi Lichtenstein and his writings had become widely known, and many different church and missionary organizations sought his services.

The Papacy, too, soon learned of his existence and significance. A special emissary from the Pope visited Tapio Szele, Hungary, with attractive offers to join the Catholic Church. To all he had the same reply: "I will remain among my own nation. I love Messiah. I believe in the New Testament but I am not drawn to join Christendom, so I will remain among my own brethren, as a watchman from within and to plead with them to behold in Yeshua (Jesus) the true glory of Israel."

as well as:
Joseph Rabinowitz (1837-1899)

Joseph Rabinowitz (1837-1899) is one of the most remarkable figures of the recent history of Jewish believers. Joseph Rabinowitz grew up a Chossidic Jew. In the Russian town of Kishinev he set up a congregation which is called "The Israelites of the New Covenant." As a Jew who believed in Yeshua, Rabinowitz insisted on his Jewish identity; that caused some problems which Messianic Jews of our day are familiar with. In 1888 Rabinowitz said, "I have two subjects with which I am absorbed: one, the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus); the other, Israel."

Rabinowitz published at least one booklet in Yiddish in 1894 entitled "What is an Israelitte of the New Covenant?" in which two Rabbis dialog, one is Messianic, the other is not. All of Joseph Rabinowitz's derash'eem (sermons) were written in Hebrew, in which all, the term B'nai B'rit Chadasha (Sons of The Renewed Covenant) is found written upon them.

As well, David Stern has made quite an influential impact on modern Messianics...

However, this is all in the setting of "modern messianics". Truth be told, you can trace the messianic movement all through the centuries back to the first century. There isn't a single century where a major messianic leader was influential in one way or another. The original Netzarim (first sect of Judaism that followed the 'messiah' Y'shua) existed from the first century and well into the 13th Century. It is well documented if you are interested.

No, I'm afraid it did not start with the Southern Baptists. In fact, I have never even heard of a Messianic connection with the Southern Baptists.

Very strange indeed. I suspect they are merely grasping at straws and making up anything they want just to toss aside what you have to present. It's too difficult for them to handle any level of scholarship and so they will make up any random nonesense to excuse it.

IN fact... I make THEM a challenge. Come here and prove to us, historically, that the Messianic movement (modern or otherwise) has it's origins in the Southern Baptist movement.

I predict: A sure and complete failing of this task.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Plan 9]

The MJAA reports itself to be the largest MJ organization in the world - and they do have members, affilates and ministries in many places around the world. They *could* be called a representation of the *mainstream,* IF such a thing could be said to exist in MJism. They are very good at not taking a stand on many decisive issues and are masters at the "big tent" philosophy.

Thanks!
They certainly have a "big Tent" site, so I'm having bigtime trouble accessing both. (I think I'm on reboot ten now?)
I do believe that their site said that they were founded in 1910, so we already have a conflict there.

The first site's church seems to have been Baptist in nature, and they had orginally planned to start an online Bible college...but instead, they converted to some form of Messianic Judaism, which is still seems a bit on the Baptist side. (I swear I'm not making this up).
They have a large part of their site devoted to cults, and as little as they know about Freemasonry, I'm not inclined to trust their historical accuracy on anything else. I'm silly this way, but I prefer original research to copying and pasting a few out-of-context passages from some anti-cult website.

They do have a couple very active ministries of support to Russia and to Israel.

They are one of the oldest modern MJ organizations, their roots go back to the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, back in the early 1900's.

Bingo! You're good! I should have just waited for you to fill me in instead of rebooting over and over.

When I disembarked from my plane and entered Lod Airport in 1972, the first group to catch my attention were a number of Jewish Russian emigrants also disembarking. I was very relieved to see them safely home. They looked as though they were in shock, but not in a bad way.

 

[Toney]

Yafet, I have to get back to the cafe but wanted to respond to this:

How do you/we label ourselves?
Do you feel it is inherrently wrong for a Jewish Believer to be labelled "christian"?
Is it a matter of preference or does it go beyond that?
Which does Messianic Judaism reflect more closely: christianity or Judaism?

Until I read your posts on this thread, I never understood the distinction. Many of those new to this may feel or have felt the same way.

The term "Christian" IMO is inappropriate for MJs unless footnoted, and who has the time? Seems to me that if you believe in One Messiah, you are an MJ; if you believe in two messiahs, you are a Jew. I wonder if this is off base?

Thank you for your explanation!

Shalom,
Toney

 

[simchat_torah]

Well, I never really intended to get onto that discussion But I merely copied/pasted my post becaue it contained a tidbit of messianic history in it, but...

Seems to me that if you believe in One Messiah, you are an MJ; if you believe in two messiahs, you are a Jew. I wonder if this is off base?

I'm not exactly sure this is accurate. I suppose it is open to debate, I'll have to think about it a bit.

I do know a few Messianics (leaders even) who believe Yeshua is Moshiahc ben Yosef, but not Moshaich ben Dovid. I feel this is innacurate, but they are none the less Messianics. As well, interesting to note is that these types of messianics are more readily accepted by mainstream Judaism.

I'll think about it more and respond later.

Shalom,
yafet