paul washer shocks youth and adults with message
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=14714844
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=14714844
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Message shocks youths
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I listened to this some time ago and was pretty appalled by it. Guess I'm out of sync with the first responders.
Did he teach or promote a deeper understanding of the Gospel in any way or just take cheap shots at people that weren't born in a third world country? He made very generalized acusations, it was disturbing to me.
It's pretty easy to offend people needlessly and yes I believe that's what he did. Hiding behind "but this is truth" isn't always valid and in this case it wasn't.
Sorry but this sermon was just wrong. (that may be a bit overstated)
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coastie
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My wife and I are both Baptists and we both agree that he grates on us. I didn't hear anything glaringly wrong with his sermon, but there is something about him, his theatrics, his voice, that just doesn't sit well with us. Besides that, he seems like he wants to really be viewed as radical, when in fact, he's really not that radical except possibly to the more liberal churches.
Also, that's shakey ground telling these youngsters that they aren't saved because they do bad stuff. The parable of the fig tree aside, he spends more time berating people for their folly than actually providing deeper insight into what it means to bear fruit. Impressionable and under-educated youth may take that to mean that they must somehow earn their salvation. I don't neccessarily disagree with what he said, but he's not someone I would invite to speak to kids at a youth conference. I'm all for extreme Christian points of view as long as the theology is solid because I agree that you either are or you aren't a Christian, you can't shift back and forth depending on your mood, but I'd like to more about him besides the canned info on his website.
Also, that's shakey ground telling these youngsters that they aren't saved because they do bad stuff. The parable of the fig tree aside, he spends more time berating people for their folly than actually providing deeper insight into what it means to bear fruit. Impressionable and under-educated youth may take that to mean that they must somehow earn their salvation. I don't neccessarily disagree with what he said, but he's not someone I would invite to speak to kids at a youth conference. I'm all for extreme Christian points of view as long as the theology is solid because I agree that you either are or you aren't a Christian, you can't shift back and forth depending on your mood, but I'd like to more about him besides the canned info on his website.
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How can it be "shakey ground" when 1 John says that someone who continues on in sinful lifestyle isn't of God?
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I heard the message a long time ago when they played it in it's entirety on Way of the Master. It was fantastic.
I've probably listened to it a hundred times and Paul Washer has quickly become one of my favorite preachers. God bless him for having the courage to proclaim the Gospel so boldly.
It's unfortunate that there are Christians who won't support him, but what he says is Biblically right on target and I believe God will bless him for that.
To me, he just demonstrates the old saying that it's better to be a fool in man's eyes than in God's eyes.
May God raise up a hundred more Paul Washers.
I've probably listened to it a hundred times and Paul Washer has quickly become one of my favorite preachers. God bless him for having the courage to proclaim the Gospel so boldly.
It's unfortunate that there are Christians who won't support him, but what he says is Biblically right on target and I believe God will bless him for that.
To me, he just demonstrates the old saying that it's better to be a fool in man's eyes than in God's eyes.
May God raise up a hundred more Paul Washers.
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Well, friends, I believe we have heard the truth being spoken!
I agree with his accusations on us as Americans. We have become too conformed to this world, instead of learning to hate with a Godly hate (not people, but their iniquity) and love with a Godly love.
I also think it is important to realize that John wrote of the inevitable sin of man and not the normalcy of that sin. We have fallen short of His glory, for this is biblical. But, do we need to embrace it? Absolutely not! I believe we need to recognize it for what it is: unrighteousness against God. And, this is a very serious action.
I do agree, though, that he WAS on shaky grounds in speaking of fruits. I wish he would have put a little more emphasis on the truth that we need to STRIVE for righteousness but cannot achieve it on earth.
Thanks!
I agree with his accusations on us as Americans. We have become too conformed to this world, instead of learning to hate with a Godly hate (not people, but their iniquity) and love with a Godly love.
I also think it is important to realize that John wrote of the inevitable sin of man and not the normalcy of that sin. We have fallen short of His glory, for this is biblical. But, do we need to embrace it? Absolutely not! I believe we need to recognize it for what it is: unrighteousness against God. And, this is a very serious action.
I do agree, though, that he WAS on shaky grounds in speaking of fruits. I wish he would have put a little more emphasis on the truth that we need to STRIVE for righteousness but cannot achieve it on earth.
Thanks!
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coastie
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Yep. It's very clear on that fact. If we are going to take these verses at face value, as Paul Washer seems to have done, then if you've sinned, you ain't a Christian, bro. I don't think you're that good. So who among us is worthy to be called righteous and without sin? *crickets chirping*
Strive for righeousness, turn away from sin, yes, hate the things of this world. Got it. Basic Biblical Doctrine 101.
The "shaky ground" is making it sound like you have to earn your way to heaven, as if it were possible. The distinction is crucial especially when addressing kids. Heck, I was almost suicidal by the end of that sermon and I only look like a teenager.
Too bad too, he's probably got a good message, but his "edginess" comes off as contrived and aggressiveness as abrasive which kind of buries his underlying message in a bunch of muck, making the message itself kind of murky. I probably would have gotten more out of the message if I wasn't so turned off by the tone. I got the same sort of distaste from interviews I've heard from him.
However, wareagle, I've read quite a few of your posts and it sounds like your theology is solid (to say the least) so don't take my post as a challenge to said theology. I'm only confrontational to folks who are educated and still refuse to accept Biblical authority.
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Well said.Yep. It's very clear on that fact. If we are going to take these verses at face value, as Paul Washer seems to have done, then if you've sinned, you ain't a Christian, bro. I don't think you're that good. So who among us is worthy to be called righteous and without sin? *crickets chirping*
Strive for righeousness, turn away from sin, yes, hate the things of this world. Got it. Basic Biblical Doctrine 101.
The "shaky ground" is making it sound like you have to earn your way to heaven, as if it were possible. The distinction is crucial especially when addressing kids. Heck, I was almost suicidal by the end of that sermon and I only look like a teenager.
Too bad too, he's probably got a good message, but his "edginess" comes off as contrived and aggressiveness as abrasive which kind of buries his underlying message in a bunch of muck, making the message itself kind of murky. I probably would have gotten more out of the message if I wasn't so turned off by the tone. I got the same sort of distaste from interviews I've heard from him.
However, wareagle, I've read quite a few of your posts and it sounds like your theology is solid (to say the least) so don't take my post as a challenge to said theology. I'm only confrontational to folks who are educated and still refuse to accept Biblical authority.
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he4rty
Just A Fool For Christ
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52906154239
Heres and audio link and download to it if that helps, just click later when directed to next page and accept cookies.
Heres and audio link and download to it if that helps, just click later when directed to next page and accept cookies.
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I probably would have gotten more out of the message if I wasn't so turned off by the tone. I got the same sort of distaste from interviews I've heard from him.[/quote]
I've got several of his messages on my ipod and have heard him being interviewed many times on Way of the Master.
I don't know how you got this impression of him because all I ever see when I hear him speak is humility. So much so that it always seems a little jarring to hear such a strong message from such a humble voice.
Thank you for the kind words (I think) , but in what way do I not accept Biblical authority?
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coastie
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I apologize for the minced words. What I meant was that I don't really want to debate this issue since we are on the same side, it's just a matter of personal impression, not differing theology. Division among Christians is something I'm sure you and I both try to avoid as much as possible.
I submit that you do accept biblical authority, hence my aversion to debating a trivial issue.
Thank you for engaging me all the same, though.
Zach
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Ave Maria
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Thanks for the audio link. It will download faster than the video link. However, it'll still be slow most likely. I'd prefer a text summary of what was said.
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A striking sermon indeed.
I agree with the general thrust of Washers message, though I haven't really any idea what the majority of 'American' Christianity is like. I've always considered it standard that Christians 'walk the walk' as well as 'talk the talk' and any that claim to believe but don't act like they do are to be regarded with suspicion.
However, I found the lack of specifics (with regards to a 'worldly life' and 'godly life') quite annoying., and I fear that in some cases, what Washer views as sin/worldliness actually isn’t necessarily.
For example, would Washer say that its wrong for me to spend time socially with my non-christian friends? (if he did, I’d have to strongly disagree with him). Also, I once listened to a sermon he did on courtship where he stated that if anyone is dating then they are outside of Gods will. I think that’s bordering on Phariseeism.
I think the absolutism could cause much confusion:
My answer (and I reckon the majority of Christians) a to questions such as 'are you following Jesus?' or 'are you living for God?' or 'are you taking up your cross etc?'. is neither a definite yes or a definite no.
I'm basically trying to follow Jesus and striving to be more like him. However, I some times screw up, I go through dry patches and I know I have many bad selfish attitudes that still need sorting out. Does this mean I'm not saved? I don't think it does. Jesus doesn't demand immediate perfection when we first accept him, but that we turn to him and put our trust I him, not only to forgive our sins but deliver us from them (which is an ongoing process that won't be finished until Christ returns).
I fear that the forceful and generalised way Washer puts across his message might turn many Christians obsessively introspective, asking themselves questions such as ‘Am I Holy enough?’ and wondering if maybe they are on their way to hell because they forgot to pray on one occasion or had a negative thought that day or because they’re not out in Peru, Kenya China etc. being a missionary etc.
Our works are not sufficient for our salvation – Christ’s blood is (and I don’t believe its possible for someone to have been washed by that blood and remained unchanged).
I’ve heard a few of Washers sermons and I agree with some of you about his tone. It sometimes comes across in his approach that God is ultimately against us rather than for us and is looking for any opportunity to condemn us rather than save us (when in fact I believe the opposite is true 'For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.’(John 3:17)
I’m reminded of the line in a song we sometimes sing in churches I hang around in:
“If you know you’re loved by the king, live for him! live for him!”
We are not saved by good works and holiness – we are saved for good works and holiness.
For more on actualising our faith in practice and advancing the kingdom (corporately as well as individually) I can’t recommend enough the work of N.T. Wright (his stuff on the historical context of Jesus is really good as well). Many of his talks/lectures/sermons can be read/listened to at
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
I really reccomend his recent book 'Simply Christian' which is a refreshing look at what being a Christian is all about (a living faith as apposed to intellectual assent to some doctrinal statements).
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christ...8073625?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186882812&sr=1-1
I agree with the general thrust of Washers message, though I haven't really any idea what the majority of 'American' Christianity is like. I've always considered it standard that Christians 'walk the walk' as well as 'talk the talk' and any that claim to believe but don't act like they do are to be regarded with suspicion.
However, I found the lack of specifics (with regards to a 'worldly life' and 'godly life') quite annoying., and I fear that in some cases, what Washer views as sin/worldliness actually isn’t necessarily.
For example, would Washer say that its wrong for me to spend time socially with my non-christian friends? (if he did, I’d have to strongly disagree with him). Also, I once listened to a sermon he did on courtship where he stated that if anyone is dating then they are outside of Gods will. I think that’s bordering on Phariseeism.
I think the absolutism could cause much confusion:
My answer (and I reckon the majority of Christians) a to questions such as 'are you following Jesus?' or 'are you living for God?' or 'are you taking up your cross etc?'. is neither a definite yes or a definite no.
I'm basically trying to follow Jesus and striving to be more like him. However, I some times screw up, I go through dry patches and I know I have many bad selfish attitudes that still need sorting out. Does this mean I'm not saved? I don't think it does. Jesus doesn't demand immediate perfection when we first accept him, but that we turn to him and put our trust I him, not only to forgive our sins but deliver us from them (which is an ongoing process that won't be finished until Christ returns).
I fear that the forceful and generalised way Washer puts across his message might turn many Christians obsessively introspective, asking themselves questions such as ‘Am I Holy enough?’ and wondering if maybe they are on their way to hell because they forgot to pray on one occasion or had a negative thought that day or because they’re not out in Peru, Kenya China etc. being a missionary etc.
Our works are not sufficient for our salvation – Christ’s blood is (and I don’t believe its possible for someone to have been washed by that blood and remained unchanged).
I’ve heard a few of Washers sermons and I agree with some of you about his tone. It sometimes comes across in his approach that God is ultimately against us rather than for us and is looking for any opportunity to condemn us rather than save us (when in fact I believe the opposite is true 'For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.’(John 3:17)
I’m reminded of the line in a song we sometimes sing in churches I hang around in:
“If you know you’re loved by the king, live for him! live for him!”
We are not saved by good works and holiness – we are saved for good works and holiness.
For more on actualising our faith in practice and advancing the kingdom (corporately as well as individually) I can’t recommend enough the work of N.T. Wright (his stuff on the historical context of Jesus is really good as well). Many of his talks/lectures/sermons can be read/listened to at
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
I really reccomend his recent book 'Simply Christian' which is a refreshing look at what being a Christian is all about (a living faith as apposed to intellectual assent to some doctrinal statements).
http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Christ...8073625?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186882812&sr=1-1
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IisJustMe
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So is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you find Washer difficult to take, you will also find Oswald Chambers ("My Utmost for His Highest") and Charles Haddon Spurgeon (the devotional "Morning and Evening," and the most prolific writer among Baptist pastors in history) difficult to take. I'm not saying I agree with Washer 100% of the time. Then again, who will I agree with 100% of the time?
In the 20th and 21st centuries, the body of Christ has too often been accepting of sinful behavior. I speak of no specific occasion, but of the willingness to overlook -- not forgive, but overlook -- sin in its leadership and in its members. We have decided that, as we cannot preclude sins from our individual lives, we will merely accept our backsliding, as well as that of our brothers and sisters, as inevitable and not demand repentance and confession.
Again to qualify my viewpoint, I'm not suggesting we be intolerant of the sin. How can we be intolerant of that which we ourselves may very well need to confess and repent of next week? We do have an obligation, however, to come alongside our brother or sister who has fallen, help pick them up, help dust them off, begin to bring them back into fellowship and encourage restoration. Unfortunately, we are good at the helping and dusting, but not very effective at the bringing and the restoring, with expectation of confession, repentance and accountability. We particularly must concentrate on the favorite sins, both our own and those among our brothers and sisters. These border on addiction, if not qualifying as such outright.
I know whereof I speak. I spent seven year as an addictions counselor before completing my Masters and entering private practice as a Christian counselor and psychologist.* I know that addictions are always about mood change: We don't like the way we feel, we have no rational way to change the way we feel, so we seek something artificial -- be it a substance, a behavior, or a compulsion -- to change the way we feel. Anything can become an addiction, especially favorite sin. Thanks be to God, the answer to sin and every spiritual issue is Jesus Christ!
If we will gently, lovingly, persistently have expectation not just of sin being inevitable, but of the outright necessity to rid it from our lives, we will truly grow in Christ. That is part of what sanctification is about, in addition to growing in love for God and love for others. If we excuse sin in our own lives as inevitable, it becomes easy to excuse it in others. Eventually, there is no accountability because everyone is too busy excusing their behavior instead of confessing it, and repenting from it., and no one challenges the process.
I believe that is Washer's message. Of course it is abrasive, narrowly focused, and socially unacceptable.
So is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
----------------------------
*(Yes, there are Christian psychologists. We treat the medical disorders -- schizophrenia and other psychoses, clinical [as opposed to non-clinical] depression, bipolar disorder and other truly medical mental health issues -- as such, and the rest of the DSM-IV-TR as spiritual issues.)
If you find Washer difficult to take, you will also find Oswald Chambers ("My Utmost for His Highest") and Charles Haddon Spurgeon (the devotional "Morning and Evening," and the most prolific writer among Baptist pastors in history) difficult to take. I'm not saying I agree with Washer 100% of the time. Then again, who will I agree with 100% of the time?
In the 20th and 21st centuries, the body of Christ has too often been accepting of sinful behavior. I speak of no specific occasion, but of the willingness to overlook -- not forgive, but overlook -- sin in its leadership and in its members. We have decided that, as we cannot preclude sins from our individual lives, we will merely accept our backsliding, as well as that of our brothers and sisters, as inevitable and not demand repentance and confession.
Again to qualify my viewpoint, I'm not suggesting we be intolerant of the sin. How can we be intolerant of that which we ourselves may very well need to confess and repent of next week? We do have an obligation, however, to come alongside our brother or sister who has fallen, help pick them up, help dust them off, begin to bring them back into fellowship and encourage restoration. Unfortunately, we are good at the helping and dusting, but not very effective at the bringing and the restoring, with expectation of confession, repentance and accountability. We particularly must concentrate on the favorite sins, both our own and those among our brothers and sisters. These border on addiction, if not qualifying as such outright.
I know whereof I speak. I spent seven year as an addictions counselor before completing my Masters and entering private practice as a Christian counselor and psychologist.* I know that addictions are always about mood change: We don't like the way we feel, we have no rational way to change the way we feel, so we seek something artificial -- be it a substance, a behavior, or a compulsion -- to change the way we feel. Anything can become an addiction, especially favorite sin. Thanks be to God, the answer to sin and every spiritual issue is Jesus Christ!
If we will gently, lovingly, persistently have expectation not just of sin being inevitable, but of the outright necessity to rid it from our lives, we will truly grow in Christ. That is part of what sanctification is about, in addition to growing in love for God and love for others. If we excuse sin in our own lives as inevitable, it becomes easy to excuse it in others. Eventually, there is no accountability because everyone is too busy excusing their behavior instead of confessing it, and repenting from it., and no one challenges the process.
I believe that is Washer's message. Of course it is abrasive, narrowly focused, and socially unacceptable.
So is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
----------------------------
*(Yes, there are Christian psychologists. We treat the medical disorders -- schizophrenia and other psychoses, clinical [as opposed to non-clinical] depression, bipolar disorder and other truly medical mental health issues -- as such, and the rest of the DSM-IV-TR as spiritual issues.)
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