Memorial Service of Christ's death

[Miaka-Chan]

I would like to ask you a question that you may or may not know that answer to. Jesus died on Nisan 14. The memorial that commererates his death, to my knowledge, has always been strictly following the hebrew lunar calendar and been on Nisan 14. Why, this year, was the memorial celebrated on Adar II 14 (Puram)? Nisan 14 Will begin after sunset April 22 this year (2005). Was it to coincide with closeness of the pagan practice of Easter? Or some other reason. Please reply I am very curious about this!

 

[Ratiocination]

I would like to ask you a question that you may or may not know that answer to. Jesus died on Nisan 14. The memorial that commererates his death, to my knowledge, has always been strictly following the hebrew lunar calendar and been on Nisan 14. Why, this year, was the memorial celebrated on Adar II 14 (Puram)? Nisan 14 Will begin after sunset April 22 this year (2005). Was it to coincide with closeness of the pagan practice of Easter? Or some other reason. Please reply I am very curious about this!

According to my workings Nisan 14 was Thursday 24th March. Nisan began at the first visable new moon in Jerusalem closest to the spring equinox.
Go here for new moon sightings and count fourteen days including the day the new moon was sighted because you don't start from 0 you start from 1.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~zadok1/moon.htm
---Scroll down to israel and you should see Jerusalem---

 

[Miaka-Chan]

I thank you very much for your reply. I asked my grandfather today, who is a Jehovah's witness, and I was simply told I was wrong because the 24th of March was the 1st full moon after the spring equinox. Which is true it is. But according to the current Hebrew calendar it is not Nisan 14.
So, I have been doing some serious studing on the Hebrew calendar.
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar explained to me the incongruency of my dates. If you translate March 24 to the Jewish Calendar this year, you will indeed find that this month is Adar II. This is because this year, in the Hebrew Calendar, is a leap year. During the Jewish leap year they add a month. Adar I is renamed to Adar II and an extra month, called Adar I which is a 30 day month, is inserted after Shevat. Which pushes Nisan 14 back one month.
from the article-- Basically, the Hebrew months alternate between a long month and a short month, that is:

1. Tishri (30 days)
2. Cheshvan (also spelled Heshvan or Marchesvan) (29 or 30 days)
3. Kislev (30 or 29 days)
4. Tevet (29 days)
5. Shevat (30 days)
6. Adar (29 days)
7. Nisan (30 days)
8. Iyar (29 days)
9. Sivan (30 days)
10. Tammuz (29 days)
11. Av (30 days)
12. Elul (29 days)

For leap years, a 30 day month of Adar I is added immediately after the month of Shevat, and the 29 day Adar is called Adar II. This is to ensure that the months remain at the same season rather than continuing to drift earlier by about 11 days per year.

-- end of exerpt.
This makes sense because Pesach or Passover is celebrated on Nisan 15 and if you look at any calendar you will notice that it doesn't occur until next month.

I think that the following facts from the article are important to note: The modern Hebrew calendar cannot be used for Biblical dates because new moon dates may be in error by up to four days and months may be in error by up to four months. The latter accounts for irregular intercalation such as the three successive years which were given extra months during the early second century according to the Talmud.
Jews have been using a lunisolar calendar since Biblical times, but originally referred to the months by number rather than name. Although the Bible never mentions an embolismic (extra) month, it must have existed in order to keep the first month in spring.

--
So in conclusion, I am not concluded in my mind if March 24th was indeed the day to celebrate the memorial, but the important thing is that it was celebrated. This really was simply a curiousity and I suppose it doesn't have any weight to the matter of things. Please read the article if you are interested, I found it very interesting.



External links

• Hebrew Calendar Science and Myth (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1584/) gives complete rules of the Hebrew calendar and a lot more.
• Hebcal Hebrew Date Converter (http://www.hebcal.com/converter/)

 

[Ratiocination]

So in conclusion, I am not concluded in my mind if March 24th was indeed the day to celebrate the memorial, but the important thing is that it was celebrated. This really was simply a curiousity and I suppose it doesn't have any weight to the matter of things. Please read the article if you are interested, I found it very interesting.

This is the modern Jewish way of determining the months, the sacred system was different. Even more confusing is that the system the isralites used before Jehovah gave Moses the new sacred system was different still. Jehovah’s witnesses use the sacred system as commanded that was still in operation in Jesus’ day. Read;


Exodus 12:1-7 12Jehovah now said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt: 2 “This month will be the start of the months for YOU. It will be the first of the months of the year for YOU. 3 Speak to the entire assembly of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth day of this month they are to take for themselves each one a sheep for the ancestral house, a sheep to a house. 4 But if the household proves to be too small for the sheep, then he and his neighbor close by must take it into his house according to the number of souls; YOU should compute each one proportionate to his eating as regards the sheep. 5 The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for YOU. YOU may pick from the young rams or from the goats. 6 And it must continue under safeguard by YOU until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. 7 And they must take some of the blood and splash it upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway belonging to the houses in which they will eat it.

Exodus 13:4 Today YOU are going out in the month of A´bib.

Exodus 23:15 You will keep the festival of unfermented cakes. You will eat unfermented cakes seven days, just as I have commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of A´bib, because in it you came out of Egypt. And they must not appear before me empty-handed.

Exodus 34:18 “The festival of unfermented cakes you are to keep. You will eat unfermented cakes, just as I have commanded you, seven days at the appointed time in the month of A´bib, because it was in the month of A´bib that you came out of Egypt.

Numbers 28:16 “‘And in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, will be Jehovah’s passover.



Deuteronomy 16:1 “Let there be an observing of the month of A´bib, and you must celebrate the passover to Jehovah your God, because in the month of A´bib Jehovah your God brought you out of Egypt by night.

Esther 3:7 In the first month, that is, the month Ni´san, in the twelfth year of King A·has·u·e´rus, someone cast Pur, that is, the Lot, before Ha´man from day to day and from month to month, [to] the twelfth, that is, the month A´dar.



This sacred system didn’t allow room for an additional month at the start of the year because of what the scriptures say. It would seem likely that if an observation of the new moon were too distant from the vernal equinox of the sun, then an intercalary month would be added then to keep the years from running to slow. The following new moon would indicate the start of Nisan.



It was not until the fourth century C.E. that a definitely standardized calendar was adopted by the Jews.

Thanks for giving me the opertunity to research something I've never really thought about before

 

[Miaka-Chan]

yes i have enjoyed this opportunity also, as it was something i hadn't really thought about before either, until i realized passover was next month. Thank you for sharing your personal research!

 

[True Believer]

Hi Rat, You beat me to it I got busy and didn't post the research I found.
Yes it is because the modern way the Jews calculate is different than how it was in Jesus day. In Jesus day they did not add a leap month.
Agape', TB

 

[Miaka-Chan]

would you mind posting me some links if you found any? i would like to check it out

 

[True Believer]

sorry the rules forbid us posting links to anything which in anyway promotes JW theology or can link from there to any JW theology which pretty much means we can't post most links for any supporting evidence of anything we write
Agape', TB

 

[Der Alte]

If one wants to know what the ancient Jews believed, I have found it is better to consult Jewish writings.

[SIZE=-1]Jewish Encyclopedia - CALENDAR, HISTORY OF:

By : Joseph Jacobs Cyrus Adler

Bound Lunar Year.
Astronomers know this kind of year as a bound lunar year. The Greeks had a similar year. Even the Christian year, although a purely solar year, is forced to take account of the moon for the fixing of the date of Easter. The Mohammedans, on the other hand, have a free lunar year.
It thus seems plain that the Jewish year was not a simple lunar year; for while the Jewish festivals no doubt were fixed on given days of lunar months, they also had a dependence on the position of the sun. Thus the Passover Feast was to be celebrated in the month of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles, also called, took place in the fall. Sometimes the feasts are mentioned as taking place in certain lunar months (Lev. xxiii.; Num. xxviii., xxix.), and at other times they are fixed in accordance with certain crops; that is, with the solar year.

In post-Talmudic times Nisan, Siwan, Ab, Tishri, Kislew, and Shebaṭ had 30 days, and Iyyar, Tammuz, Elul, Ḥeshwan, Ṭebet, and Adar, 29. In leap-year, Adar had 30 days and We-Adar 29. According to Pirḳe Rabbi Eliezer, there was a lunar solar cycle of 48 years. This cycle was followed by the Hellenists, Essenes, and early Christians.

In the times of the Second Temple it appears from the Mishnah (R. H. i. 7) that the priests had a court to which witnesses came and reported. This function was afterward taken over by the civil court (see B. Zuckermann, "Materialien zur Entwicklung der Altjüdischen Zeitrechnung im Talmud, "Breslau, 1882).

The fixing of the lengths of the months and the intercalation of months was the prerogative of the Sanhedrin, at whose head there was a patriarch or. The entire Sanhedrin was not called upon to act in this matter, the decision being left to a special court of three. The Sanhedrin met on the 29th of each month to await the report of the witnesses.

From before the destruction of the Temple certain rules were in existence. The new moon can not occur before a lapse of 29½ days and ⅔ of an hour. If the moon could not be exactly determined, one month was to have 30 days and the next 29. The full months were not to be less than 4 nor more than 8, so that the year could not be less than 352 days nor more than 356. After the destruction of the Temple (70 C.E.) Johanan ben Zakkai removed the Sanhedrin to Jabneh. To this body he transferred decisions concerning the calendar, which had previously belonged to the patriarch. After this the witnesses of the new moon came direct to the Sanhedrin.

Empirical Determination of Leap-Year.
Every two or three years, as the case might be, an extra month was intercalated. The intercalation seems to have depended on actual calculation of the relative lengths of the solar and lunar years, which were handed down by tradition in the patriarchal family. Moreover, it was possible to judge by the grain harvest. If the month of Nisan arrived and the sun was at such a distance from the vernal equinox that it could not reach it by the 16th of the month, then this month was not called Nisan, but Adar Sheni (second).

On the evening before the announcement of the intercalation the patriarch assembled certain scholars who assisted in the decision. It was then announced to the various Jewish communities by letters. To this epistle was added the reason for the intercalation. A copy of such a letter of Rabban Gamaliel is preserved in the Talmud (Sanh. xi. 2).

The country people and the inhabitants of Babylonia were informed of the beginning of the month by fire-signals, which were readily carried from station to station in the mountain country. These signals could not be carried to the exiles in Egypt, Asia Minor, and Greece, who, being accordingly left in doubt, celebrated two days as the new moon.

Owing to the weather it was frequently impossible to observe the new moon. In order to remove any uncertainty with regard to the length of the year on this account, it was ordained that the year should not have less than 4 nor more than 8 full months. After the fixing of the calendar it was settled that the year should not have less than 5 nor more than 7 full months.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=43&letter=C[/SIZE]​

 

[Der Alte]

sorry the rules forbid us posting links to anything which in anyway promotes JW theology or can link from there to any JW theology which pretty much means we can't post most links for any supporting evidence of anything we write
Agape', TB

Why is it that JW can only find the truth at their JW websites? The truth should be everywhere. For example, the writings of the early church, from 33 a.d. through 325 .a.d., when the 4th century version of JW was condemned, should be full of the "truth" as taught by JW's today.

Here is a link to the early church fathers, TB, please show us your "truth, here."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

 

[Ratiocination]

Why is it that JW can only find the truth at their JW websites? The truth should be everywhere. For example, the writings of the early church, from 33 a.d. through 325 .a.d., when the 4th century version of JW was condemned, should be full of the "truth" as taught by JW's today.

Here is a link to the early church fathers, TB, please show us your "truth, here."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

Hmmm! Where has True Believer response to this post gone? I was going to read it the other day, perhaps he mentioned the truth in it - just maybe - just maybe!!!!

 

[Ratiocination]

I've found this from the early church regarding the passover celebration, it seems to suggest that the early church celebrated the memorial as do JW's today.​

Fragments from Peter of Alexandria​

[a.d. 260 -300-311.]

V.-That Up to the Time of the Destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews Rightly Appointed the Fourteenth Day of the First Lunar Month.​

I.15 ​

1. Since the mercy of God is everywhere great, let us bless Him, and also because He has sent unto us the Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth. For for this cause the month Abib was appointed by the law to be the beginning of months, and was made known unto us as the first among the months of the year; both by the ancient writers who lived before, and by the later who lived after the destruction of Jerusalem, it was shown to possess a most clear and evidently definite period, especially because in some places the reaping is early, and sometimes it is late, so as to be sometimes before the time and sometimes after it, as it happened in the very beginning of the giving of the law, before the Passover, according as it is written, "But the wheat and the rye were not smitten, for they were not grown up."16 Whence it is rightly prescribed by the law, that from the vernal equinox, in whatsoever week the fourteenth day of the first month shall fall, in it the Passover is to be celebrated, becoming and conformable songs of praise having been first taken up for its celebration. For this first month, says he, "shall be unto you the beginning of months,"17 when the sun in the summer-time sends forth a far stronger and clearer light, and the days are lengthened and become longer, whilst the nights are contracted and shortened. Moreover, when the new seeds have sprung up, they are thoroughly purged, and borne into the threshing floor; nor only this, but also all the shrubs blossom, and burst forth into flower. Immediately therefore they are discovered to send forth in alternation various and diverse fruits, so that the grape-clusters are found at thattime; as says the lawgiver, "Now, it was the time of spring, of the first ripe grapes; "18 and when he sent the men to spy out the land, they brought, on bearers, a large cluster of grapes, and pomegranates also, and figs. For then, as they say, our eternal God also, the Maker and Creator of all things, framed all things, and said to them, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself upon the earth" Then he adds, "And it was so; and God saw that it was good."19 Moreover, he makes quite clear that the first month amongst the Hebrews was appointed by law, which we know to have been observed by the Jews up to the destruction of Jerusalem, because this has been so handed down by the Hebrew tradition. But after the destruction of the city it was mocked at by some hardening of heart, which we observing, according to the law, with sincerity have received; and in this, according to the Word, when he speaks of the day of our holy festivity, which the election bath attained: but the rest have become hardened,20 as said the Scripture; and after other things.

2. And He says as follows: "All these things will they do unto you for My name's sake, because they know not Him that sent Me."21 But if they knew not Him who sent, and Him who was sent, there is no reason to doubt but that they have been ignorant of the Passover as prescribed by the law, so as not merely to err in their choice of the place, but also in reckoning the beginning of the month, which is the first amongst the months of the year, on the fourteenth day of which, being accurately observed, after the equinox, the ancients celebrated the Passover according to the divine command; whereas the men of the present day now celebrate it before the equinox, and that altogether through negligence and error, being ignorant how they celebrated it in its season, as He confesses who in these things was described.

3. Whether therefore the Jews erroneously sometimes celebrate their Passover according to the course of the moon in the month Phamenoth, or according to the intercalary month, every third year in the month Pharmuthi22 matters not to us. For we have no other object than to keep the remembrance of His Passion, and that at this very time; as those who were eye-witnesses of it have from the beginning handed down, before the Egyptians believed. For neither by observing the course of the moon do they necessarily celebrate it on the sixteenth day of Phamenoth, but once every three years in the month Pharmuthi; for from the beginning, and before the advent of Christ, they seem to have so done. Hence, when the Lord reproves them by the prophet, He says, "They do always err in their heart; and I have sworn in My wrath that they shall not enter into My rest."23

4. Wherefore, as thou seest, even in this thou appearest to be lying greatly, not only against men, but also against God. First, indeed, since in this matter the Jews never erred, as consorting with those who were eye-witnesses and ministers, much less from the beginning before the advent of Christ. For God does not say that they did always err in their heart as regards the precept of the law concerning the Passover, as thou hast written, but on account of all their other disobedience, and on account of their evil and unseemly deeds, when, indeed, He perceived them turning to idolatry and to fornication.

5. And after a few things. So that also in this respect, since thou hast slumbered, rouse thyself much, and very much, with the scourge of the Preacher, being mindful especially of that passage where he speaks of "slipping on the pavement, and with the tongue."24 For, as thou seest again, the charge cast by thee upon their leaders is reflected back; nay, and one may suspect a great subsequent danger, inasmuch as we hear that the stone which a man casts up on high falls back upon his head. Much more reckless is he who, in this respect, ventures to bring a charge against Moses, that might), servant of God, or Joshua, the son of Nun. who succeeded him, or those who in succession rightly followed them and ruled; the judges, I mean, and the kings who appeared, or the prophets whom the Holy Spirit inspired, and those who amongst the high-priests were blameless, and those who, in following the traditions, changed nothing, but agreed as to the observance of the Passover in its season, as also of the rest of their feasts.

6. And after other things. But thou oughtest rather to have pursued a safer and more auspicious course, and not to have mitten rashly and slanderously, that they seem from the beginning, and always, to have been in error about the Passover, which you cannot prove, whatever charge you may wish to bring against those who, at the present time, have erred with a grievous wandering, having fallen away from the commandment of the law concerning the Passover and other things. For the ancients seem to have kept it after the vernal equinox, which you can discover if you read ancient books, and those especially which were written by the learned Hebrews.

7. That therefore up to the period of the Lord's Passion, and at the time of the last destruction of Jerusalem, which happened under Vespasian, the Roman emperor, the people of Israel, rightly observing the fourteenth day of the first lunar month, celebrated on it the Passover of the law, has been briefly demonstrated. Therefore, when the holy prophets, and all, as I have said, who righteously and justly walked in the law of the Lord, together with the entire people, celebrated a typical and shadowy Passover, the Creator and Lord of every visible and invisible creature, the only-begotten Son, and the Word co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and of the same substance with them, according to His divine nature, our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, being in the end of the world born according to the flesh of our holy and glorious lady, Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin, and, of a truth, of Mary the Mother of God; and being seen upon earth, and having true and real converse as man with men, who were of the same substance with Him, according to His human nature, Himself also, with the people, in the years before His public ministry and during His public ministry, did celebrate the legal and shadowy Passover, eating the typical lamb. For "I came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfil them," the Saviour Himself said in the Gospel.

But after His public ministry He did not eat of the lamb,25 but Himself suffered as the true Lamb in the Paschal feast, as John, the divine and evangelist, teaches us in the Gospel written by him, where he thus speaks: "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment-hall, lest they should be defined, but that they might eat the passover."26 And after a few things more. "When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment-seat, in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the third hour,"27 as the correct books render it, and the copy itself that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by the divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful. And again the same evangelist says: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath-day (for that Sabbath-day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."28 On that day, therefore, on which the Jews were about to eat the Passover in the evening, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was crucified, being made the victim to those who were about to partake by faith of the mystery concerning Him, according to what is written by the blessed Paul: "For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; "29 and not as some who, carried along by ignorance, confidently affirm that after He had eaten the Passover, He was betrayed; which we neither learn from the holy evangelists, nor has any of the blessed apostles handed it down to us. At the time, therefore, in which our Lord and God Jesus Christ suffered for us, according to the flesh, He did not eat of the legal Passover; but, as I have said, He Himself, as the true Lamb, was sacrificed for us in the feast of the typical Passover, on the day of the preparation, the fourteenth of the first lunar month. The typical Passover, therefore, then ceased, the true Passover being present: "For Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us," as has been before said, and as that chosen vessel, the apostle Paul, teaches.30

http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-102.htm - P4504_1359690



It would seem that Peter of Alexandria is agreeing with JW’s that the greater sacraments - the blood and flesh of Christ - the fulfilled Passover foods, should only be eaten at the exact time of the old Passover observance.

You’ll notice how he also agrees that the Passover should not be celebrated if it falls before the vernal spring equinox, as do JW’s today. On this basis it would seem that an intercalary month would be added at the end of the year if the Passover was to fall before the vernal spring equinox.

Richard.

 

[True Believer]

Why is it that JW can only find the truth at their JW websites? The truth should be everywhere. For example, the writings of the early church, from 33 a.d. through 325 .a.d., when the 4th century version of JW was condemned, should be full of the "truth" as taught by JW's today.

Here is a link to the early church fathers, TB, please show us your "truth, here."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

I have posted from many Non JW sources over the years I have been here but you always declare them biased if they do not agree with you. Remember Zeo and Tony they always used jewish sites to deal with you and you would get mad at them just as you do at me. I posted Roman history for you from a historian with no links to any religion and you claimed he was a fraud because he didn't quote from people that you agree with. I posted things from the book How Theology and Bias effect Bible translation only to have you go into a tizzy because somehwere on some page the website which is not owned or supported by the WBTS had information in it from them and gave the link to where he got the information. This is why I tend to ignore you nasty attitude because all it does is bring up conflict instead of discussion. We have different beliefs we will always have different beliefs. I do not follow you around to find something to complain about as you seem to always do with me.
I believe the original poster asked the Jehovah's Witnesses a question and we answered it. Your only purpose to come in after the fact must have been to bait me.
Please be so kind as to not make personal challenges to me anymore.
Agape', TB

 

[A New Dawn]

sorry the rules forbid us posting links to anything which in anyway promotes JW theology or can link from there to any JW theology which pretty much means we can't post most links for any supporting evidence of anything we write
Agape', TB

That is JW theology? I just thought it was history. We recognize that He died on Nisan 14, also, but we celebrate resurrection day with the rest of Christianity.