Mega churches - what do you think?

[RenHoek]

But if the bowling alleys are for our own entertainment, then it is probably a waste of resources.

True enough.

The light has to shine, not be hidden.

The bigger the light, the more the shine

A huge congregation can be great for some and provide the balance of experience and anonimity that they need at the time, but at some point in their Christian journey, most people need smaller groups where they can learn together, pray together, have fellowship, and be accountable to one another.

My church is now adding more classrooms to facilitate this type of environment. It is mostly being handled at homes and a nearby Johnson Controls facility that we also run shuttles from.

One of the questions that I have had about mega churches is how do they cater for the different generations - meaning, how do the older people who were not brought up in that tradition fit in?

We are not about traditions, we are about presenting truth in a culturally relevant way. I think this transcends generations. I go to men's breakfasts and there is always a good mix of young and old. No one church can be all things to all people, so if you are not comfortable with the way things are presented, a more ”traditional” church might be in order, just as I would find a “traditional” church stuffy and irritating.

As soon as you get above about 200, you have a job holding the church family together.

I place little value in the institution holding the members together. The Church is made up of all belivers in the body. A body is so apt an analogy due to its changing nature. If those people are not held together, perhaps it is God moving them.

That said, the larger the organization, regardless of what it is, the more unmanageable it becomes. American government is the best example of this.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Sounds like you are in a great church. Our God is a very generous God.

 

[RenHoek]

To me any place the word is preached to a willing group of participants is a great church, whether I enjoy it or not. Keep on sister.

 

[Panacea]

To me any place the word is preached to a willing group of participants is a great church, whether I enjoy it or not. Keep on sister.

I think your comment points to a huge problem in the Church today: the idea that a church is a place or a building.
I have many problems with the Megachurch concept. The Bible may give us freedom to meet in large groups, but what is best for the Church? What will help us be the Church that God intended us to be?
Megachurches are impersonal. We are ALL given spiritual gifts, but how could we possibly use them at a megachurch? Megachurches give us anonymity - but at a huge expense. Without close Christian friendships & accountability, we are left with a lukewarm faith crippled by hypocrisy. How can biblical discipline possibly be enforced at a megachurch? How can we then "purge the leaven" out of the Church? (1 Cor 5:1-13) The Church needs to be a holy, righteous community.
I think we can best achieve a biblical Church by meeting often in small groups, and maybe meet in large groups on a monthly basis.

church-reform.com

 

[RenHoek]

I have many problems with the Megachurch concept.

Don’t go to one then. Leave mine alone.

The Bible may give us freedom to meet in large groups, but what is best for the Church?

The body is made up of many types of members. There is no one best way to do church. If a large group of people pool resources in a grand fashion to shape righteous change, who are you to tell us it is wrong, or do you have scriptural reference to the correct number?

What will help us be the Church that God intended us to be?

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Megachurches are impersonal

Don’t go to one then. Leave mine alone. This is a ridiculous statement. They are as impersonal as you make them. If all you do is go to a large meeting and never get to know anyone, which is on the individual, then it can be impersonal. It is not the churches job to make you a better Christ follower. It is up to you to seek Him.

We are ALL given spiritual gifts, but how could we possibly use them at a megachurch?

There is far more opportunity to use them at a “megachurch”. The more people around for you to help, the more you can do.

Without close Christian friendships & accountability, we are left with a lukewarm faith crippled by hypocrisy.

Thank you for stereotyping me as a hypocrite. Christian friendships and accountability can only occur from people at a specific type of building with a specific number of people?

How can we then "purge the leaven" out of the Church? (1 Cor 5:1-13) The Church needs to be a holy, righteous community.

And apparently devoid of any variation. I would rather see the lost/weak in church hearing a good message than have them stay home and not have the exposure. Should we hang out with people regularly who are problematic without repentance? Probably not, but Christ was criticized by the Pharisees of His time for spending time with these people. It is our call to help them find their way.

I think we can best achieve a biblical Church by meeting often in small groups, and maybe meet in large groups on a monthly basis.

Go to one then. Leave mine alone.

 

[sharedtears]

I don't agree with the bowling etc, Jesus was angered when items were being sold in His Father's house of prayer!

 

[RenHoek]

I am not so sure it was all about the selling. I think the worst of it is that they were ripping people off. Either way, you could have a point with the bowling. I’ll let God judge that one.

 

[Panacea]

Thank you for stereotyping me as a hypocrite.

Ren, I in no way intended to label you, personally, as anything. I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. I definitely don't believe that 100% of the Christians at megachurches are hypocrites.

I will respond to your comments later...
God bless...

 

[RenHoek]

No offense taken, it just seems to me that people should go where they can learn and serve. The size to me is irrelevant. So size really doesn’t matter whew.

 

[Panacea]

The body is made up of many types of members.

Agreed. There are various giftings, and people of different ages, ethnicities, languages. Having different types of congregations for different people is great.

There is no one best way to do church. If a large group of people pool resources in a grand fashion to shape righteous change, who are you to tell us it is wrong, or do you have scriptural reference to the correct number?

There is no specific number given in scripture. However, we know from scripture how a congregation needs to operate. In order for a congregation to operate scripturally, I see no better way than to have a small congregation.
Here are some things we are told the local congregation must do:
1)Enforce discipline
2)Observe the Master's (Lord's) Supper.
3)Exercise the spiritual gifts that ALL believers have been given.

Enforce Discipline
In order for a congregation to enforce biblical church discipline (Matt 18, 1Cor 5), the participants must know each other, and know each other on an intimate level. How else can one believer know if the other is sinning? This is accomplished much easier when the congregation is small. In addition, how can a unrepentant believer be formally expelled from a congregation if the congregation is so large that people can come and go as they please with anonymity?

Observe the Master's Supper
We learn in Acts 20:7 that the disciples broke bread on Sundays. According to early church historians, the Master's Supper was no snack. Not only is the meal based on the Passover Seder (a Jewish feast), but it is also referred to as the "Love Feast" by early Christians. If this meal was truly meant to be a full dinner, how would it be logistically practical to serve a meal for 50+ members every Sunday?

Exercise Spiritual Gifts
All believers are given gifts. All believers should be using those gifts. How can we ever use these gifts in a significant way unless we are in a participatory, inter-active meeting? How can every believer ever interact on a meaningful level when we are one person sitting among thousands in an auditorium watching the church service happen? It seems the only opportunity to even share a quick word of encouragement or teaching in a Megachurch is in the context of a smaller group of friends or believers gathering before or after the service.

It is not the churches job to make you a better Christ follower. It is up to you to seek Him.

It is both my responsibility to seek Him, and your responsibility to encourage me. That's what assembling together is all about. (Heb 10:24,25) It is also every believer's responsibility to keep his brother accountable and use the method of discipline that Jesus gave us (Matt 18, 1 Cor 5).

I would rather see the lost/weak in church hearing a good message than have them stay home and not have the exposure. Should we hang out with people regularly who are problematic without repentance? Probably not, but Christ was criticized by the Pharisees of His time for spending time with these people. It is our call to help them find their way.

I would rather see a lost person hear a good message than sit at home also. However, we are called to "go" (Matt 28:19) and preach the good news, not wait for the lost to show up. Church meetings are for believers, not unbelievers. Although we can bring an unsaved friend, the meetings must be designed to edify the church, not to evangelize. The Church is meant to be a pure, righteous community. Sin is very contagious - we must purge the Church of those who call themselves Christians, yet fail the discipline process.

-Panacea
John 13:35

 

[RenHoek]

Enforce Discipline
In order for a congregation to enforce biblical church discipline (Matt 18, 1Cor 5), the participants must know each other, and know each other on an intimate level. How else can one believer know if the other is sinning?

I think there is too much concern regarding what others are doing and not enough about our own issues. Log before speck and all. That aside, it is, again, up to the individual to get connected on a more intimate level. I speak for my church alone, but at every service people are encouraged to serve and meet in small groups to “get connected”. I also believe that some of these thoughts are obsolete based on the level of information available to people to expose sin. I am literate, have a Bible, and I have an Internet so that I may learn. This was not the case back in the day. There was much more reliance on personal teaching of Biblical truth, and therefore more need for a closer-knit situation.

This is accomplished much easier when the congregation is small. In addition, how can a unrepentant believer be formally expelled from a congregation if the congregation is so large that people can come and go as they please with anonymity?

I think there has to be a pretty grievous issue to warrant expulsion. Such things surface anywhere. Again, I would rather a sinner come in and hear than not. Also, the anonymity can be a great plus to bring someone in who does not want to be recognized. They can come in and at least hear without being “pestered” by a cliquey congregation. This is the down side of a smaller group of believers.

Observe the Master's Supper
We learn in Acts 20:7 that the disciples broke bread on Sundays. According to early church historians, the Master's Supper was no snack. Not only is the meal based on the Passover Seder (a Jewish feast), but it is also referred to as the "Love Feast" by early Christians. If this meal was truly meant to be a full dinner, how would it be logistically practical to serve a meal for 50+ members every Sunday?

I see no basis for this. It may have been a full meal, but Jesus spoke only of the bread and wine as the ritual to be followed. I also see no reason that this needs to happen every Sunday. Jesus makes no mention of frequency. If this is the type of thing you enjoy, more power to you. This does not make one right and the other wrong, nor better or worse.

Exercise Spiritual Gifts
All believers are given gifts. All believers should be using those gifts. How can we ever use these gifts in a significant way unless we are in a participatory, inter-active meeting? How can every believer ever interact on a meaningful level when we are one person sitting among thousands in an auditorium watching the church service happen? It seems the only opportunity to even share a quick word of encouragement or teaching in a Megachurch is in the context of a smaller group of friends or believers gathering before or after the service.

Again, you are assuming that no one in the congregation gets together other than the main service. I would also repeat that there is far MORE opportunity to use ones gifts among a larger congregation.

It is both my responsibility to seek Him, and your responsibility to encourage me. That's what assembling together is all about. (Heb 10:24,25) It is also every believer's responsibility to keep his brother accountable and use the method of discipline that Jesus gave us (Matt 18, 1 Cor 5).

Done and done. I have a closer, small group of people that function in this regard. Remember, The Church is every believer, not just people who go to the same building. I again contend that there is too much “keeping people accountable” and not enough de-logging going on.

Church meetings are for believers, not unbelievers. Although we can bring an unsaved friend, the meetings must be designed to edify the church, not to evangelize.

I tend to disagree. The way our church works is that there is a message for both believers and unbelievers on the weekends, and believers only on Wed. This way when you bring a friend, they can be ministered to as well as feed the believer. I feel there is no greater call than for us to save the lost.

The Church is meant to be a pure, righteous community. Sin is very contagious - we must purge the Church of those who call themselves Christians, yet fail the discipline process.

True, but this is impossible to attain. This is our goal, but we must be realistic in our purging. Baby in the bathwater. The Church is all believers making it the biggest mega church that there is. Again, to me, it is not the size of the building or congregation that matters, as long as Biblical doctrine is being upheld.

 

[Panacea]

I think there is too much concern regarding what others are doing and not enough about our own issues. Log before speck and all.

Ren, we cannot dismiss Christ's commands. Jesus did not contradict Himself. He told us not to hypocritically judge, but also to confront a brother in sin. Church discipline is very lacking in the modern church and we are paying the price. Christians would certainly be concerned more about their "own issues" if they knew there was accountability.

That aside, it is, again, up to the individual to get connected on a more intimate level. I speak for my church alone, but at every service people are encouraged to serve and meet in small groups to “get connected”. I also believe that some of these thoughts are obsolete based on the level of information available to people to expose sin. I am literate, have a Bible, and I have an Internet so that I may learn. This was not the case back in the day. There was much more reliance on personal teaching of Biblical truth, and therefore more need for a closer-knit situation.

Yes, we can all get biblical teaching on our own - I download sermons all the time. That is a great point.
However, to say that Christians of the past needed a close-knit situation to learn Biblical truth is absolutely off the mark. Most Christians got their teaching from sitting in a church service, listening to a preacher. That is hardly close-knit.My whole argument is that the Church has not been close-knit enough!
And receiving biblical teaching is hardly the only reason to get close-knit or "connected." Again, the Bible says we need to be accountable to each other, encourage each other, etc... Fellowship is not only for learning the Word.

I think there has to be a pretty grievous issue to warrant expulsion. Such things surface anywhere. Again, I would rather a sinner come in and hear than not. Also, the anonymity can be a great plus to bring someone in who does not want to be recognized. They can come in and at least hear without being “pestered” by a cliquey congregation. This is the down side of a smaller group of believers.

Pretty grevious? Well, how about sin? Is that a grevious enough issue? Grevious enough for God's only Son to have to die? Read Acts 5. How grevious did a sin have to be before God Himself killed Ananias & Sapphira on the spot? It says in verse 11, 13 & 14 that everyone was in FEAR because of it! Meanwhile, God added believers to the Church.
We all sin, but true Christians will repent - unbelievers will not. Jesus said we must treat the unrepentant "brother" as a heathen & tax-collector (Matt 18:17).
I agree. Anonymity does have its up-side. However, it has a HUGE down-side, and that is: hypocrisy & complacency due to little or no accountability.

Again, you are assuming that no one in the congregation gets together other than the main service. I would also repeat that there is far MORE opportunity to use ones gifts among a larger congregation.

I would prefer it if there were more Christians in small groups than in the service.
Please tell me, brother, why you believe there is more opportunity to use & develop your gift among a larger congregation.

I again contend that there is too much “keeping people accountable” and not enough de-logging going on.

Well, I don't know ONE congregation that enforces true, biblical church discipline. So I don't see your point at all. Secondly, accountability is more than just telling your brother that he's in sin. It's also about encouragement, being an example and just being there. If we had more close relations with real Christians who weren't afraid to rebuke your sin, then we'd see a whole lot more of de-logging going on!

True, but this is impossible to attain. This is our goal, but we must be realistic in our purging. Baby in the bathwater. The Church is all believers making it the biggest mega church that there is. Again, to me, it is not the size of the building or congregation that matters, as long as Biblical doctrine is being upheld.

Being holy isn't about being prefect; it's about repentance. There are 2 goals in purging: to get the false Christians out, and to get the sinning Christian to repent.
How can biblical doctrine be upheld if we are making excuses to not follow God's clear commands???

-Karol

 

[RenHoek]

Ren, we cannot dismiss Christ's commands. Jesus did not contradict Himself. He told us not to hypocritically judge, but also to confront a brother in sin. Church discipline is very lacking in the modern church and we are paying the price. Christians would certainly be concerned more about their "own issues" if they knew there was accountability.

Jesus never addresses Church discipline. Let’s remember that “the church” is made up of all believers. This is the biggest mega-church you can get. I would also contend that all discipline is lacking in today’s culture, not just in the church.

Yes, we can all get biblical teaching on our own - I download sermons all the time. That is a great point.
However, to say that Christians of the past needed a close-knit situation to learn Biblical truth is absolutely off the mark. Most Christians got their teaching from sitting in a church service, listening to a preacher. That is hardly close-knit.My whole argument is that the Church has not been close-knit enough!

Agreed. Issues of doctrine have driven wedges in the body. That is why it is up to us to fellowship with a smaller group outside of the church building. This means, to me, that the size of the building is irrelevant.

And receiving biblical teaching is hardly the only reason to get close-knit or "connected." Again, the Bible says we need to be accountable to each other, encourage each other, etc... Fellowship is not only for learning the Word.

Does this happen in a group of 100? 50? 25? You cannot assign a number to it. I would contend that in a group of 50 accountability smells a lot like gossip.

Pretty grevious? Well, how about sin? Is that a grevious enough issue?

That would make a congregation of zero. Heresy and repeated sins that damage the fellowship are, to me, the only reasons to consider expulsion. What person did Jesus send away permanently?

How grevious did a sin have to be before God Himself killed Ananias & Sapphira on the spot?

I know you are not advocating killing people on the spot for their sins. That was God making a point. This has little to do with church discipline to me.

However, it has a HUGE down-side, and that is: hypocrisy & complacency due to little or no accountability.

Everything has ups and downs. We need to choose the congregation that covers our weaknesses and plays to our strengths. This is not the same for all people.

I would prefer it if there were more Christians in small groups than in the service.

What does God want? Can the flock be too big for the Shepherd? Did not Jesus preach to and feed 5000 at a time? Was He less effective in larger groups? I understand your point on discipline, but you can’t force people to believe or live right by threatening punishment. Lead by example and encourage. After that, let God do the purging.

Please tell me, brother, why you believe there is more opportunity to use & develop your gift among a larger congregation.

If you have a gift for music, more people can hear. If your gift is administration, there is more to administer. Teaching, more to teach. If helping one person is good, is not helping two better?

If we had more close relations with real Christians who weren't afraid to rebuke your sin, then we'd see a whole lot more of de-logging going on!

Does not a church with more people in it enhance your chances of finding people who share your desire for these things?

How can biblical doctrine be upheld if we are making excuses to not follow God's clear commands???

I missed the command regarding church size.

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

Jesus never addresses Church discipline.

I believe that Matthew 18:14-18 is a clear example of Christ's teaching on church discipline. (Note that verse 17 calls for an unrepentant sinner to be cast out of the church altogether.)

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

Let’s remember that “the church” is made up of all believers. This is the biggest mega-church you can get.

Not in the sense of this discussion, though. It's not a megachurch in the sense of being a localized body that meets under the same roof, with the same rules and regulations, and under the same pastoral team.

I would also contend that all discipline is lacking in today’s culture, not just in the church.

True, but that does not excuse a lack of leadership within the church.

 

[RenHoek]

I believe that Matthew 18:14-18 is a clear example of Christ's teaching on church discipline. (Note that verse 17 calls for an unrepentant sinner to be cast out of the church altogether.)

my bad

 

[Panacea]

I know you are not advocating killing people on the spot for their sins. That was God making a point. This has little to do with church discipline to me.

No, of course not. The Bible doesn't tell Christians to kill sinners. Yes - God was making a point; it's a point that is sorely lacking in today's world, and it is this: God is Holy and He takes sin seriously!

I understand your point on discipline, but you can’t force people to believe or live right by threatening punishment. Lead by example and encourage. After that, let God do the purging.

Please read I Cor 5. Paul compares sin to leaven: a little leaven leavens the whole lump! A little sin in a congregation permeates the whole congregation! This is why we need to "purge" out the unrepentant sinner. Paul tells us that God will judge the unbelievers, but we the Church must judge those within the Church! That's right: God will not purge the Church: it is our responsibility. Please, read it for yourself.

Ren, I fear for you. How long have you "attended" Church? How long have you been a Christian? And you did not know Christ Himself commands Church discipline? Don't you know that we are to be a holy people, "pressing on", "striving" to be like Christ?
I appreciate your opinions, but I also see no scripture to back any of it up. I know where you are coming from. Our society is very tolerant, and it feels so right to just accept everyone and ignore their sin. God does command love: for believers as well as unbelievers. But He also demands holiness from His people. We represent Him on this Earth: we must be holy - because He is holy. You have to understand that your mentality, as well-intentioned as it is, flies in the face of God's Word.

What does God want? Can the flock be too big for the Shepherd? Did not Jesus preach to and feed 5000 at a time? Was He less effective in larger groups?

Jesus chose 12 followers. Yes, Jesus preached to 5000 at a time, but that doesn't mean that Billy Graham is a shepherd of 15,000 if he speaks at a stadium. Jesus could have chosen 5000 disciples, but He chose 12. Why? Because smaller numbers facilitate discipleship, mentoring, accountability, etc. Would you rather have your child learn in a classroom of 5000, or of 12? Think about it.

Be blessed! ...and get into the Word!

 

[RenHoek]

Please read I Cor 5. Paul compares sin to leaven: a little leaven leavens the whole lump! A little sin in a congregation permeates the whole congregation!

Again, if we purged everyone who sinned, there would be a congregation of zero. I still believe that all the discipline is referring to flagrant disregard for God’s word, heresy and the like.

Ren, I fear for you

Fear not.

How long have you "attended" Church? How long have you been a Christian? And you did not know Christ Himself commands Church discipline?

Made a mistake. That’ll happen. Was thinking it was in the epistles.

Don't you know that we are to be a holy people, "pressing on", "striving" to be like Christ?

Of course. The point to me is that you seem way to intent on purging. People will fail, welcome to humanity. I still see little difference in Christ speaking to 5000 and my Sunday service. Like Christ and His disciples, we can choose the people we want to surround ourselves with to provide deeper relationships. To me this still has nothing to do with the size of the building.

I know where you are coming from. Our society is very tolerant, and it feels so right to just accept everyone and ignore their sin.

I am not sure you do. I have little tolerance for society and its’ acceptance of evil. People have free will and will abuse it, even in the body. As for scripture:
Matthew 7:
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Joh 8:7 -
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

I certainly do not want to be judged harshly, so I am not inclined to go around on a crusade to get people out of the church for their transgressions. God loves everyone and does not want them turned away as the Pharisee’s did to those they deemed “sinners”. Jesus had the harshest words for these overly pious people. The sinners He showed the most compassion for. That is Christ like.

You have to understand that your mentality, as well-intentioned as it is, flies in the face of God's Word.

Please do not tell me my mentality flies in the face of God’s word. There is a happy medium here that you are not willing to accept. I have not said that there should be no discipline. I am just telling you to be careful how you judge others and with how much zeal you do it. Show some love brother.

Would you rather have your child learn in a classroom of 5000, or of 12? Think about it.

I have. I learn best from lecture. It is irrelevant to me the size of the class as long as the speaker makes sense. I have learned more at my church of thousands than I have from smaller groups.

 

[hollyanglo]

Look at the early church. You have a church at Phillipi for example. How big do you think that church? What they did was have we often consider "house churches", small groups that met in homes. There were several of these, but the church at Phillipi would all come together and worship. The church at Phillipi was a local church with (I'm sure, but no real numbers) thousands of Christians. So the "mega" part is not a problem as long there are several men to lead and disciple each of these "house churches".

While the idea of mega-church can make on a bit nervous, you can't say that in and of themselves they are not honoring to God. While I can't say it is wrong, I don't understand the need for restaraunts and bowling at a church. Then again, (I'm asking myself) why do we gyms at a church? It's used for outreach and fellowship.

I would thread carefully on the number "1000". The population growth was not that high at that time. Phillipi itself might have had 1000 citizens.

 

[seashale76]

I am a member now of a small congregation - bigger than most in America that have less than one hundred in worship on a Sunday, but certainly smaller than some very prominent congregations.

One new congregation has formed in our county and it has a bowling alley and food court andeverything - is it a church?

Mega-Churches Offer Prayer, Play, Shopping - ABC News

There's nothing wrong with having a large congregation. I consider churches with large congregations to be in a separate category from the unique phenomena of mega churches we have in the US.

Having once attended a mega church myself, it is nothing more than a social club for many people. It is more important for some to see church like a business, and they usually lose a few thousand members if the pastor retires or leaves (because at their core they tend to be more personality cults than about Christ). The one in my neck of the woods is locally known as Six Flags Over Jesus.

There was something seriously missing there. I only saw it as a place to temporarily go until I found a real church. It was so pointless as to make me question why I bothered to get up and go at all. If you want to be entertained, give it a whirl. However, if you want to work out your salvation with fear and trembling and receive the medicine of immortality- you won't be able to do that at any mega church I've ever heard about or attended. Clever marketing techniques don't cut it. People need the cure for what ails them. I never found it at a mega church.