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Meet You At The Flag

BeanMak

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Today, at least in the Northwestern Suburbs of Chicago, is Meet you at the Flag day. The idea is to gather around the Flag poles at your child's school, with the students, family members and any other who wish to attend to pray for God's blessings on the school and its attendees.

I should have posted this yesterday, but please remember our schools, the teachers and students in your prayers today.

And I hope that we will meet you by the flag.
M
 

seebs

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I really have to point out the Bible's clear condemnation of public prayer. Praying in a public place to be seen is inappropriate. God will bless the country just as much if you pray in private - and you won't be violating His instructions.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
Seebs you're wrong. God doesn't condemn public prayer, he does condemn praying for attention, which none of these people that orgainize this do. Please don't assume things unless they are biblically based.

I have to say, this is pretty solidly Biblical:

Matthew 6:5-6

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Why do these people pray at the flagpole, in a public place, and not in private? Because they wish to be seen. They are, indeed, choosing the manner of their prayer so as to call attention to it; this is *precisely* what Christ forbade.

It is ridiculous to claim that the event is not based around being *seen* praying. If it weren't, it could happen anywhere - it wouldn't need to be in one of the most public places available.

It's showing off. It's done in a way calculated to garner attention and flaunt prayer. IMHO, it's disgusting, as it contradicts several of the core beliefs taught in the Bible. It's exactly the same thing that Christ fought against among the Jews; very public devotion, shown off as a special thing, and used as a social engineering tool.

If you want to pray for your country, do like the book says, and pray in private. God will hear you just as well.
 
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LouisBooth

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"that they may be seen of men."

Exactly, not all praying in public is for showing off seebs. That's your wrong assumption.

The book says don't pray for attention, it says nothing about not praying in public. Please actually read the passage.

"It is ridiculous to claim that the event is not based around being *seen* praying. "

Again, your wrong assumption.

"If it weren't, it could happen anywhere - it wouldn't need to be in one of the most public places available."

Is called symbolic. Why don't you write the guy that started the movement. I have already talked to him on a one on one level a long time ago. I doubt you have done the same.
 
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Gerry

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It is ridiculous to claim that the event is not based around being *seen* praying. If it weren't, it could happen anywhere - it wouldn't need to be in one of the most public places available.

What you are saying is too ridiculous to be taken seriously. You are always spouting the Bible with your twisted self interpretation. You need to learn to RIGHTFULLY divide the Word of Truth, and keep your twisted arguments in apologetcs.

Yes they are there to be seen, taking a STAND for their Saviour! Did you ever read this?:

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

These young people are confessing God before men in humble prayer to Him! Your heart determines whether you are a hypocrit or not. How DARE you judge these young people and FALSELY attempt to teach them that what they are doing is wrong????? When did God die and you assumed this right.

You better untwist the Scriptures on judging and apply them to yourself.

You leave the youth alone and go argue nothing with those who are into that.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"that they may be seen of men."

Exactly, not all praying in public is for showing off seebs. That's your wrong assumption.

The book says don't pray for attention, it says nothing about not praying in public. Please actually read the passage.

"It is ridiculous to claim that the event is not based around being *seen* praying. "

Again, your wrong assumption.

"If it weren't, it could happen anywhere - it wouldn't need to be in one of the most public places available."

Is called symbolic. Why don't you write the guy that started the movement. I have already talked to him on a one on one level a long time ago. I doubt you have done the same.

What amuses me about this is that this is just like the homosexuality threads, only the other way around. I think it is *TOTALLY* obvious that this event violates both the letter and spirit of the law.

Once again, in simple words:

IF I DO A THING IN A PUBLIC PLACE THAT I COULD HAVE DONE IN A PRIVATE PLACE, I AM DOING IT TO BE SEEN.

There's no other meaningful interpretation. Saying that it isn't about being seen is ridiculous; it's *ALL* about being seen. It's about having a big obvious presence by the flagpole so people can say "gosh, there are a lot of Christians there". If being seen weren't important, it could be done anywhere - but it's done in *THE* most public place available.

It is not an "assumption" to state that, when people go out of their way to do a thing in a public place, that they are doing it to be seen; it's practically the definition of a public place!

You keep denying that people do this to be seen, but if you read posts and message board things about it, it's all about "good turnout" and "hope to see more people there". It's about a numeric presence in a public place.

Excuses can be made, but they are all nonsense; people do this to show something to other people. They meet at a time and place, not because time or place are special to God, but because other people will be there; that is *PRECISELY* what Christ condemned.

You, my friend, should read the passage. You've eroded it to nearly nothing by qualifying and quantifying and reading only part of it. It doesn't just condemn hypocrisy; it condemns public prayer, and says to pray in private. Not "some of the time". Not "except on holidays" or "except near flagpoles". *ALL OF THE TIME*.

Prayer is a private, personal thing with a *personal* God. It is not a public activity.

When Christ was traveling with only three of his disciples, He *left them* to pray *by Himself*. (Matthew 26) When he performed miracles, such as feeding the multitude, he did this, then *went off alone to pray*.

Should we not follow His example? Certainly, your interpretation could be extracted if we were to take the one passage out of context. However, when we look at Christ himself, we see unambiguously that He *NEVER ONCE* prayed in public. Not once. He prayed *ALONE*, just as He commanded us to pray.

There is the rhetoric which is used to justify SYATP events, and there are the things which are said off the record by the kids who go to them. I would take the latter as a much more accurate indication of the driving force behind attendance.

If you talk to the kids, it's pretty clear that they all know that, rhetoric and legal smokescreens aside, the sole purpose of a gathering in a public place is to have other people observe the gathering. Christ's explicit teachings and example were both quite different from this.

It's curious to see that our roles have changed; now I'm the one arguing that the Bible is totally clear in prohibiting something, and you're the one trying to justify it. Whee! :)
 
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seebs

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What I love is that Gerry's justification of the action shows, unambiguously, that my interpretation of the action is correct; Gerry is agreeing that the students are doing exactly what I say they're doing, but saying it's not wrong. Louis is agreeing that it would be wrong, but saying that's not what they're doing.

So... There are two defenses that can be made, but each suggests that the other is invalid. How convenient!

It is not "twisting" Scripture to observe that Christ *ALWAYS* left the disciples when He went to pray. Why do you think He did that? Surely, we should learn something from His example.
 
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Gerry

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Surely you would also learn something if you spent more time STUDYING the Bible instead of trying to teach it. God's Word is not a toy or some man-written book for you to twist and interpret to suit the point you wish to make.

The scriptures I have given you are valid and they mean what they say.

You yourself are in these forums to be seen. You are in apologetics impressing people with your vast knowledge and your debating and insulting skills.

Well I am a simple man, not so skilled. But I respect God and HIS written Word, and I will gladly confess Jesus anywhere and anytime, because that is what HE has told me to do. And furthermore I do it because I love Him and I am glad these youth also love Him enough to take a public stand.

This time you are DEAD WRONG according to Scripture.
 
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seebs

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Rather than reading your post (which I'm sure was better tempered than mine) I will simply observe that this is a matter on which it is clear that many of us disagree vehemently. I've posted a thread in General Theology on the theological question, and I'll bow out of this thread rather than continue being a jerk to people whose beliefs, while I disagree with them, are clearly the result of a sincere devotion to God.
 
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LilyLamb

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ummm, I'm alittle confused about the comment that Jesus never prayed in public ... I don't see how you got that ... I know He went off by Himself to pray alone, but I do believe He participated in the very public act of praying at the synagogues/temples ... and I'll have to look, but I was sure He had prayed publicly asking God's blessings on the fish/bread when he fed the multitude.
 
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Gerry

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It would appaer LilyLamb that you are quite right!

Matthew 15:36 And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. {blessed it: many Greek copies have gave thanks}
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mark 8:6 And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.
 
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LouisBooth

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"What amuses me about this is that this is just like the homosexuality threads, only the other way around. I think it is *TOTALLY* obvious that this event violates both the letter and spirit of the law."

LOL LOL LOL. Its not like it at all. You're taking scripture out of context and twisting it like you always do seebs. The teaching is simply stated but you want to gloss over it. Don't pray for attention. these people don't do that.

"IF I DO A THING IN A PUBLIC PLACE THAT I COULD HAVE DONE IN A PRIVATE PLACE, I AM DOING IT TO BE SEEN."

Okay, so you eat to be seen? You go to your job to be seen? You shop to be seen? What a ridicoulus (sp) arugment. Have you gone crazy?

"Prayer is a private, personal thing with a *personal* God. It is not a public activity."

Again, you're wrong. There is something called corperate prayer.

"Should we not follow His example? "

Again you're taking scriptures out of context. he also prayed at the last supper in front of 12 other people to bless the supper. You're wrong seebs, that's just the simple truth of this matter. Sorry, you just are.

"It's curious to see that our roles have changed; now I'm the one arguing that the Bible is totally clear in prohibiting something, and you're the one trying to justify it. Whee! "

No, you're again twisting scripture just to argue about it. It gets tiring seeing you do this. the whole passage you state is quite summed up in the section I showed you. don't do it for attention.
 
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Job_38

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Because of the fact we are praying in public, doesn't mean we are doing it to be seen. We want to show what God has done, but it is not to bring glory to ourselves, which we are called to do. What Jesus was saying is not to do it for yourself, to be a hypocryte that does one thing and believes another.
 
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Gerry

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This would seem to be another case of Jesus praying in public. Apparently, He was even WANTING those around to hear Him pray.

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Did Jesus pray this prayer because He had to? Of course not. All He had to do was say Lazarus come forth and Lazarus would have come. No, Jesus prayed this prayer to Glorify His Father. He clearly said so in the prayer itself. "...that they may believe that THOU hast sent me." The public prayer of a Christian is not for our glory but for His! We honor Both the Father and the Son in our prayers.
 
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