Medical Miracle

[truthshift]

"NEW YORK--A national survey of 1,100 physicians, conducted by HCD Research and the Louis Finkelstein Institute for Religious and Social Studies of The Jewish Theological Seminary in New York City over the past weekend, found that 74% of doctors believe that miracles have occurred in the past and 73% believe that can occur today."

- Businesswire.com

"A supposed study run in the US found no connection between prayer for healing and the improvement of health in patients prayed for, claiming a neutral effect overall."

- Geoff Pengilly; Wordpress.com

"Many people continue to believe in miracle cures despite no good evidence that they occurred. When modern medicine fails to heal, many desperate people turn to unproven or "alternative" healers. What is the evidence that he can actually heal people?"

- Benjamin Radford; livescience.com & Skeptical Inquirer Magazine


So what we've got here is 3 out 4 people holding medical doctorate degrees believing that medical miracles performed by God continue to happen to this day despite an utter lack of evidence supporting medicinal benefits for prayer.

While some might argue that prayer does indeed have healing effects and I think that this can be true to an extent...

"As science investigates connections between the mind and the body, some scientists have found that a person's faith can help him or her live a longer, healthier life [source:Yang]. Prayer may lower blood pressure and heart rate, both of which can contribute to a more virile immune system [source: Bernardi, et al.]."

"While praying for oneself may provide some health benefit, intercessory or distant prayer is another matter."

- health.howstuffworks.com

So we've got no conclusive evidence supporting the healing powers or prayer that are claimed by Christians and other religious followers worldwide yet we have a massive following that believes it happens regularly.

----------

I think one of the greatest questions I've seen posed against the belief in miracle healing is:

Why won't God heal amputees??

Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, and reversing the physical poisons and so on.

But we all know that amputated limbs do regenerate in response to prayer and amputees get no miracles from God.

If God answers prayers and performs miracles why does God completely ignore amputees? To answer this question as a Christian theist, you have to come up with some rationalization such as "He has a special plan for them." and you stop thinking of it. One can't ignore this fact of life.

Why must excuses be made on God's behalf?

- Eric -

 

[stan1980]

With incredibly little external evidence of God, you do have to wonder, if that thing that you think God is, is really all just in your head?

 

[truthshift]

With incredibly little external evidence of God, you do have to wonder, if that thing that you think God is, is really all just in your head?

My point exactly, Stan.

 

[Braunwyn]

I can't say I'm surprised. I know a number of physicians that believe all kinds of things. I think we'd be hard pressed to find medical scientists that held the same position though.

 

[Verv]

Amputation does not end a person's life.

Furthermore, if God provided such obvious evidence as the regeneration of limbs for those who were prayed Christian prayers it would also begin reflecting undeniable proof of the Christian God, thus defeating the purpose of us even being here and being tested by God.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

"NEW YORK--A national survey of 1,100 physicians, conducted by HCD Research and the Louis Finkelstein Institute for Religious and Social Studies of The Jewish Theological Seminary in New York City over the past weekend, found that 74% of doctors believe that miracles have occurred in the past and 73% believe that can occur today."

- Businesswire.com

"A supposed study run in the US found no connection between prayer for healing and the improvement of health in patients prayed for, claiming a neutral effect overall."

- Geoff Pengilly; Wordpress.com

"Many people continue to believe in miracle cures despite no good evidence that they occurred. When modern medicine fails to heal, many desperate people turn to unproven or "alternative" healers. What is the evidence that he can actually heal people?"

- Benjamin Radford; livescience.com & Skeptical Inquirer Magazine


So what we've got here is 3 out 4 people holding medical doctorate degrees believing that medical miracles performed by God continue to happen to this day despite an utter lack of evidence supporting medicinal benefits for prayer.

While some might argue that prayer does indeed have healing effects and I think that this can be true to an extent...

"As science investigates connections between the mind and the body, some scientists have found that a person's faith can help him or her live a longer, healthier life [source:Yang]. Prayer may lower blood pressure and heart rate, both of which can contribute to a more virile immune system [source: Bernardi, et al.]."

"While praying for oneself may provide some health benefit, intercessory or distant prayer is another matter."

- health.howstuffworks.com

So we've got no conclusive evidence supporting the healing powers or prayer that are claimed by Christians and other religious followers worldwide yet we have a massive following that believes it happens regularly.

----------

I think one of the greatest questions I've seen posed against the belief in miracle healing is:

Why won't God heal amputees??

Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, and reversing the physical poisons and so on.

But we all know that amputated limbs do regenerate in response to prayer and amputees get no miracles from God.

If God answers prayers and performs miracles why does God completely ignore amputees? To answer this question as a Christian theist, you have to come up with some rationalization such as "He has a special plan for them." and you stop thinking of it. One can't ignore this fact of life.

Why must excuses be made on God's behalf?

- Eric -

Stumbled onto skeptics.org did ya?

Did you ponder that 100% of those 75% and 74% of Doctors polled, are highly educated people?

Why did God, in the Bible, not only allow "My people Israel" to suffer and be killed off and enslaved, but, actually did it Himself?

It appears from the theme of the Bible, that it is the spiritual condition that God is concerned with. From a right spirit flows a good life. It also seems interesting, that we don't have many examples of dismembered limbs ever being regrown in Biblical reports.

What's your point? God doesn't bring back extinct species either. Neither does evolution.

Please, not the nonsense that atheism is a valid idea?

0 x 0 does not equal the observable universe. Some "thing" created it very orderly.

This is probably why so many highly educated people like Medical Doctors still believe in miracles.

Who knows, maybe they have evidence to back up their highly educated positions.

 

[truthshift]

Amputation does not end a person's life.

Furthermore, if God provided such obvious evidence as the regeneration of limbs for those who were prayed Christian prayers it would also begin reflecting undeniable proof of the Christian God, thus defeating the purpose of us even being here and being tested by God.

So, according to what I understand that you are saying; God does not heal amputees because it would "reveal him" to us and negate your function in the system.

1. If god does not need to heal an amputated leg because it is not life-threatening, then what about all of the probably trillions of benign tumors that have disappeared without explanation. Can you say those were miracles?

If so, then why not amputees too?

If not, then why not say that there is no explanation for the "miracles" as well? How do you go about distinguishing the two? What is your method of selection? A heart-warming story?

2. If god does not want to present himself to us at all and test us, why is it that he would attempt to heal internal diseases that can't be seen with the human eye. If they are miracles, he is "reflecting" his presence to us and this is something he does not want to do. It's obvious that it is impossible to heal an amputated limb. It has never once occured in human history. So, if you lose a limb, god says "sorry, you're SoL but, I'm going to heal this guy in the next room, I'm sorry you lost your limbs and cannot support your family anymore."

3. If god were to heal a limb, how would it be undeniable that God did it? Are you to say that the miracles god supposedly has performed are questionable?

4. Furthermore, if god is testing you and you are 100% certain in your faith and there is nothing that will make you change your mind about it, then whence commeth the test?

 

[stan1980]

When is all said and done, you can argue till you're blue in the face, the bottom line is there is still no evidence of God that can't easily be refuted. All I see is some 'convenient' stories on why God doesn't do anything. Either put up, or shut up!

Incidentally, I don't believe that there ever could have been 'nothing', otherwise there would be 'nothing' now. You can't make something of nothing. It's the Christian view (not the atheist view) that something (God) came from nothing, which I would suggest is a logical impossibility.

0 * 0 = PCF's belief in God

 

[HighwayMan]

Miracles and prayer are not directly related, even in the context of religious belief. Praying for someone to be saved does not at the slightest mean God will suddenly change his mind for whatever path that person is on and save his life. If God performs medical miracles, he does it for his own reasons, whether someone asked for them or not.

 

[HighwayMan]

Incidentally, I don't believe that there ever could have been 'nothing', otherwise there would be 'nothing' now. You can't make something of nothing. It's the Christian view (not the atheist view) that something (God) came from nothing, which I would suggest is a logical impossibility.

0 * 0 = PCF's belief in God

That's the first time I'm hearing that. Generally, Christians believe God is eternal, with no beginning or end. Eternity is beyond our understanding - even if God wasn't involved. The concept that something - whatever it was, has always existed containing the potential for creating our universe is not something the human brain can grasp, because everything we have ever known or experienced is bound by time.

 

[truthshift]

Stumbled onto skeptics.org did ya?

Did you ponder that 100% of those 75% and 74% of Doctors polled, are highly educated people?

Why did God, in the Bible, not only allow "My people Israel" to suffer and be killed off and enslaved, but, actually did it Himself?

It appears from the theme of the Bible, that it is the spiritual condition that God is concerned with. From a right spirit flows a good life. It also seems interesting, that we don't have many examples of dismembered limbs ever being regrown in Biblical reports.

What's your point? God doesn't bring back extinct species either. Neither does evolution.

Please, not the nonsense that atheism is a valid idea?

0 x 0 does not equal the observable universe. Some "thing" created it very orderly.

This is probably why so many highly educated people like Medical Doctors still believe in miracles.

Who knows, maybe they have evidence to back up their highly educated positions.

1. Yes, I'm aware of their high education. 12 years of schooling in the medical field does not convey an automatic understanding of all things.

2. A refutal of creationism doesnt automatically make one accredit evolution. Evolution is a fact and has been proven to happen. Whether we actually come from it is besides the point and _entirely off topic_ I never claimed evolution did anything miraculous such as bring back an extinct species. Why would an unconscious reality have a need to do that? why would god need to do that? whats your point?

3. Who mentioned anything about the creation of the universe but you? Why are you changing the subject? I happen to not subscribe to the big-bang theory, so you haven't done much to argue for the case of healing by god. What you've done is brought in an unrelated subject to back your reasoning. It offers nothing for your argument.

4. If they have evidence for it, where is it? Why are they not sharing it?

5. Again, if god is testing people, and you are 100% in your faith as all christians should be. Then whence commeth the test? Nothing will change your mind because you are certain. If you are not, you are not christian.

 

[icarusforde]

You know how you said that God doesnt heal amputees...

Something i would find interesting would be to consider the things that amputees can do. They can do things, go into social circles and be accepted, whereas full bodied (for want of a better word) wouldnt be so easily accepted. also, the other thing is the fact of the amazing testimony they have.

and on the subject of 0 x 0, then whats the square root of negative one? if you can give me a mathematically sound answer that is not impossible, then, ill give up this line of my argument.

 

[truthshift]

Miracles and prayer are not directly related, even in the context of religious belief. Praying for someone to be saved does not at the slightest mean God will suddenly change his mind for whatever path that person is on and save his life. If God performs medical miracles, he does it for his own reasons, whether someone asked for them or not.

If I understand you correctly, you are making a statement for gods plan and predetermined life.

1. If god has a set course for everyone(predestination) then all that you do, whatever choice you make, what ever thought you think. It was planned out and done by God.

All the people who murdered someone, God made them do it. All the people who are saved and not saved, god has planned it out and there is nothing you can do about it.

All the people who have incurable diseases, are starving to death, are on a remote island somewhere and will never hear of god, all the people who rape, all the people who steal, all the people who commit fraud and adultery, and all the people who pray every night. God did it.

To support the idea of predestination is illogical and impossible from a theist perspective. How can you be tested if god will dictate how you do on the test?

2. If god does not answer prayers and all is determined by him, then why pray?? or am I just to assume that answering prayers for healing is something that he just doesn't like to do...?

 

[stan1980]

That's the first time I'm hearing that. Generally, Christians believe God is eternal, with no beginning or end. Eternity is beyond our understanding - even if God wasn't involved. The concept that something - whatever it was, has always existed containing the potential for creating our universe is not something the human brain can grasp, because everything we have ever known or experienced is bound by time.

Speak for yourself, it's quite easy for me to grasp that there has always been something, otherwise I wouldn't be having this conversation with you!

From what I understand, Ex-Nihilo (out of nothing) is something Christian's believe.

 

[truthshift]

You know how you said that God doesnt heal amputees...

Something i would find interesting would be to consider the things that amputees can do. They can do things, go into social circles and be accepted, whereas full bodied (for want of a better word) wouldnt be so easily accepted. also, the other thing is the fact of the amazing testimony they have.

and on the subject of 0 x 0, then whats the square root of negative one? if you can give me a mathematically sound answer that is not impossible, then, ill give up this line of my argument.

1. yeah, anyone can be accepted. They remain unhealed though.

2. Whats the point of giving the square root of negative 1 again? What are you getting at? Who was making any argument on this subject anyhow?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

1. Yes, I'm aware of their high education. 12 years of schooling in the medical field does not convey an automatic understanding of all things.

Hmm, yet you hear atheists depend so much on the educated elite.

2. A refutal of creationism doesnt automatically make one accredit evolution.

It is impossible to refute creationism.

Do the math.

Evolution is a fact and has been proven to happen.

Oh really. We see moths that become toads do we? We see Dolphins growing scissored fins to cut their way out of nets?

Whether we actually come from it is besides the point and _entirely off topic_ I never claimed evolution did anything miraculous such as bring back an extinct species. Why would an unconscious reality have a need to do that? Why would God need to do that? Whats your point?

Just to use our God given powers of reason.

3. Who mentioned anything about the creation of the universe but you? Why are you changing the subject?

I'm not and you know it.

I happen to not subscribe to the big-bang theory, so you haven't done much to argue for the case of healing by God.

The Big Bang "theory?" As in the "theory" of evolution? That kind of a theory?

What you've done is brought in an unrelated subject to back your reasoning. It offers nothing for your argument.

I just thought I'd raise your Bible contradictions with some atheism contradictions that's all.

4. If they have evidence for it, where is it? Why are they not sharing it?

I believe that I have actually heard a doctor or two say "It's a miracle" several times in regards to their patient. What right to you have, what evidence to consider them a liar?

5. Again, if God is testing people, and you are 100% in your faith as all Christians should be.

I do not believe God tests many people at all.

Then whence commeth the test?

The reality of life.

Nothing will change your mind because you are certain. If you are not, you are not Christian.

Bravo Eric. But I have come to this certainty by much logic, reason and testing.

As in my opinion of atheism. I am certain it is nonsense. Literally.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Miracles happen. They're called coincidences in the secular world. My mom having two kids despite her serious medical condition which led doctors to tell her that she would never have healthy children: I call it a miracle. Other people call it a mistake on the doctors part or a luck of chance. Really that's one of the reasons I became Christian. I don't believe that chance has effects like that. My dearest friends falling from a cliff near a river, into rocks directly below it, but landing in the softest available spot. Very low chance. I regard that as a miracle.

Miracles exist no matter what you believe in. It just goes by a different name in every one.

 

[HighwayMan]

If I understand you correctly, you are making a statement for gods plan and predetermined life.

1. If god has a set course for everyone(predestination) then all that you do, whatever choice you make, what ever thought you think. It was planned out and done by God.

All the people who murdered someone, God made them do it. All the people who are saved and not saved, god has planned it out and there is nothing you can do about it.

All the people who have incurable diseases, are starving to death, are on a remote island somewhere and will never hear of god, all the people who rape, all the people who steal, all the people who commit fraud and adultery, and all the people who pray every night. God did it.

To support the idea of predestination is illogical and impossible from a theist perspective. How can you be tested if god will dictate how you do on the test?

2. If god does not answer prayers and all is determined by him, then why pray?? or am I just to assume that answering prayers for healing is something that he just doesn't like to do...?

1. I'm not sure what "test" you are talking about (I don't believe in hell), but if our life on Earth is about a test, I'd say it is about our inner strength and will when faced with what the world throws at us.

And as for the rest of your reply - no. I never said anything to that extreme. God may decide whether you get hit by a car and lose a leg or not, but he does not decide what you think or how you react to it. We don't even really need God for this equation - we are thrown into the world which affects us in many ways we can not control, but the only thing that's up to us is how we react.

2. Why pray? To strengthen your own spirit. Again - God is not a magical genie who answers your wishes on the spot. By praying, you communicate to God the needs of your heart - though the answers are rarely what we expect - or even in this life.

 

[stan1980]

2. Whats the point of giving the square root of negative 1 again? What are you getting at? Who was making any argument on this subject anyhow?

I think he's just been learning about imaginary numbers in maths class, and is posturing. Like you, I can't see the relevance either!

 

[stan1980]

Miracles happen. They're called coincidences in the secular world. My mom having two kids despite her serious medical condition which led doctors to tell her that she would never have healthy children: I call it a miracle. Other people call it a mistake on the doctors part or a luck of chance. Really that's one of the reasons I became Christian. I don't believe that chance has effects like that. My dearest friends falling from a cliff near a river, into rocks directly below it, but landing in the softest available spot. Very low chance. I regard that as a miracle.

Miracles exist no matter what you believe in. It just goes by a different name in every one.

There is a reason for everything. Putting something down as a miracle is just lazy thinking, and shows me more than anything, that you haven't really got much appreciation of the natural world or much motivation to learn.