Mediatrix?

[Hoonbaba]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking about that word. Mary is considered a mediatrix. What exactly does this mean?

I've read the Vatican II statement which basically says Mary's role as mediatrix doesn't undermine the mediatorship of Christ, but what does mediatrix mean? Or more specifically, what does the Vatican II document or the Catechism (paragraph 969) mean when it says 'mediatrix'?

Any thoughts?

-Jason

 

[Benedicta00]

That all graces pass through her hands.

 

[marciadietrich]

We all mediate in bringing Christ to others, even though Christ is the one mediator between us and God.

In the case of Mary the idea is that in being the sort of physical portal that God used in the incarnation (Mary as the ark of the new covenant) that she had a particular and special role in redemption (so the co-redemptrix idea), mediated during her life, and continues mediating in heaven in a broader way than we do. I find it a difficult concept on the scale, not on the basic principle. I find it easy to understand that Mary is the avenue that the grace of God came to us in the incarnation.

The "trix" on the end of mediatrix or co-redemptrix would indicate a lesser and subordinate role as compared to Christ.

This all relates also to merit, that Jesus' obedience and death on the cross provided an endless supply of merit. And that Mary has provided a great amount of merit as well.

All complex, still trying to get a handle on it myself. I will say the idea that Mary mediates ALL grace in an ACTIVE manner is still difficult for me, I can understand it in a more passive sense by her role as mother of Christ.

Marcia

 

[Hoonbaba]

That all graces pass through her hands.

Because she gave birth to the Messiah?

-Jason

 

[Benedicta00]

Because she gave birth to the Messiah?

-Jason

That and the graces that we receive from God that he grants are because of her prayers for the salvation of souls.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Well said Michelle

 

[marciadietrich]

That and the graces that we receive from God that he grants are because of her prayers for the salvation of souls.

I still don't understand really WHY it is ALL graces pass thru Mary. Your statement makes it look like only Mary's prayers and decisions work in this. I know the assumption is always she only does God's will. But I think also leads to bad theology of Mary letting people into heaven by the back door that Jesus hadn't planned to let in. That would seem to conflict with the idea of Mary always working within God's will and with God's sovereignty.

The main and earliest thing I could find in researching this (back when converting) was I think St. Ephraim around 350-400AD saying something about all good things coming from Mary. Which that parallels similiar statements on Jesus, in particular I have heard it in the Mass.

Anyhow I think this is rather confusing for many people, and most would benefit from some backing on the ideas. Some explanation on how this doesn't turn into a line of people to be gone thru to get to Christ and God. If you ask others and a saint besides Mary to pray for you, then it has to go thru Mary first, who then goes to Christ, who then mediates to God and then reverse the process back down the line?

I'd like to see an explanation of these ideas with some quotes from Church fathers, some fleshing it out. For me the one line explanation doesn't fill in the gaps.

Marcia

 

[isshinwhat]

are because of her prayers for the salvation of souls.

It is not "because of her prayers" that people are saved, but she does actively pray for us all, so just as St. Paul could say that he saved people through his cooperation, we say the same thing of Mary. It's not like if Mary wasn't praying for us all we would not be saved, yet God in His Majesty has chosen us all, and Mary specifically as a type of the Church, to play a role, although infinately inferior to that of Christ, in the salvation of our brothers and sisters.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

Since her assumption into Heaven, Mary co-operates in the application of the grace of Redemption to man. She participates in the distribution of grace by her maternal intercession which is far inferior in efficacy to that of the intercessory prayer of Christ, the High Priest, but surpasses far the intercessory prayer of all the other saints.

[size=-1]According to the view of the older, and of many of the modern theologians Mary's intercessory co-operation extends to all graces, which are conferred on mankind, so that no grace accrues to men, without the intercession of Mary. The implication of this is not that we are obliged to beg for all graces through Mary, nor that Mary's intercession is intrinsically necessary for the application of the grace, but that, according to God's positive ordinance, the redemptive grace of Christ is conferred on nobody without the actual intercessory co-operation of Mary.[/size]

[size=-1]{Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, tr. Patrick Lynch, Rockford, IL: TAN Books & Publishers, 1974 (orig. 1952 in German), pp. 212-213}[/size]

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ270.HTM

Great site.

Neal

 

[Benedicta00]

I think it is important to point out that this not a binding belief, or is it?

I do not get wrapped up in this one too much. I believe Mary holds back the wrath of God with her intercession many a time, that is all that teaching, if it is one, means to me. I do not give Mary any rank over God.

 

[Reformationist]

I believe Mary holds back the wrath of God with her intercession many a time

How does she do that? For instance, are you saying that if God wanted to execute His RIGHTEOUS wrath against someone that Mary, through prayer or by other means of intercession, is able to stay His hand?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

How does she do that? For instance, are you saying that if God wanted to execute His RIGHTEOUS wrath against someone that Mary, through prayer or by other means of intercession, is able to stay His hand?

Thanks,
God bless

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. She holds back his wrath by asking Him to not condemn us even though we deserve it. Does this mean she has power over God? No it don’t. But if it was his will to condemn us, she is there with him every step. She only prays for His will to be done.

 

[KennySe]

As Abraham pleaded with God to not destroy the few righteous of Sodom and Gomorah... as Moses pleaded with God to retain His covenant with the Israelites, after they had fashioned the golden calf...
so Mary pleades with God The Father for us, and she pleads with Her Son.

( or maybe she's in Heaven, kicking back and glad that she doesn't have to worry about the Christians on Earth, because upon spurting out the Lord her job was done as incubator? *HEAVY SARCASM* )

 

[Hoonbaba]

Thanks Neal. That helped a ton. I feel much better now =)

-Jason

 

[Col]

I have been reading with interest the Catholic forums since joining the board and I don't wish to offend anyone but I find the obsession with an elevation of Mary troubling. Christ himself said he is the way the truth and the life etc. I also find the details of what Mary's job is and how she operates not mentioned in my bible (admitedly its not a Catholic Bible..still to get one). Would I be right in assuming that all the details of Mary's position and authority have been decided on by men in the "Church" and not by scripture.

Bless Ya <><
Col

 

[Benedicta00]

I have been reading with interest the Catholic forums since joining the board and I don't wish to offend anyone but I find the obsession with an elevation of Mary troubling. Christ himself said he is the way the truth and the life etc. I also find the details of what Mary's job is and how she operates not mentioned in my bible (admitedly its not a Catholic Bible..still to get one). Would I be right in assuming that all the details of Mary's position and authority have been decided on by men in the "Church" and not by scripture.

Bless Ya <><
Col

Hello,

I believe that the way you see our devotion to the mother of Jesus erroneous.

Firstly, we do not elevate her. “All generations shall call me blessed.” For 2000 years the Church only calls her blessed.

Catholics fully acknowledge that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, we do not believe Mary died for our sins and redeemed us.

And I cited the bible’s explanation for why the Church calls her “blessed among women” and the “men” in the Church who were Christ’s apostles have only passed this devotion down to us over the course of the last 2000 years. The biblical explanations support the tradition and the early Christians who practiced this devotion to Mary bares a great witness to that.

 

[Michelina]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. She holds back his wrath by asking Him to not condemn us even though we deserve it. Does this mean she has power over God? No it don&#8217;t. But if it was his will to condemn us, she is there with him every step. She only prays for His will to be done.

Look at Cana.

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

At this point, Our Lord -Who always does the Will of the Father- speaks plainly: it is not yet my time.

His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Mary also sought always to do God's will, but she knows that He is interactive with us. She knows that she can ask, as Abraham and Moses did, for something special. We all can. How many times did Our Lord tell us about the power of prayer.

Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

Our Lord could have just made the same vintage of wine the party had been drinking, but He gave the best. The Father willed to grant Mary her unspoken prayer. Our Lord did His Father's will.

This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Why did John put this episode in his gospel? The Holy Spirit, using John, wants to say something to us in this passage. What is it?

Is it nothing other than a way to reveal Our Blessed Mother's tremendous intercessory power? Before she told the servants to do whatever Our Lord told them to do (which is what she always says), did she know the Father would grant her prayer? Did Her Spouse the Holy Spirit let her know?

When the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, was it a once and once only relationship? I believe that what God does, He does forever. Mary continues to be the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, just as she is the mother of the Son and Daughter of the Father. This is the reason for her unique relationship with God. And why Catholics venerate her in a unique way.

For our nonCatholic friends: Catholics give LATRIA (adoration, worship) to God; DULIA (VENERATION) to the saints; HYPERDULIA (high veneration) to Mary only.

 

[Michelina]

...we do not elevate her. &#8220;All generations shall call me blessed.&#8221; ... I cited the bible&#8217;s explanation for why the Church calls her &#8220;blessed among women&#8221;

Col, I would add that the Greek word used in reference to Mary is 'eulogomena' which means 'bless-ed' not 'blessed', the past participle of 'to bless'.

It is the feminine form of 'eulogomenos' which Zachary uses when he says (Luke 1:68) "Bless-ed be the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited us wrought redemption for His people"

Eulogomenos is also used in the phrase: "bless-ed is the fruit of thy womb" (Jesus).

This is a word of PRAISE.

Eu= well; logomena=spoken of

Mary is to be well-spoken of.

"Bless-ed" here does not mean someone who has been the recipient of a gift (someone who is blessed).

I hope this helps, Col.

 

[Michelina]

Col,

...what Mary's job is and how she operates not mentioned in my bible (admitedly its not a Catholic Bible..still to get one).

Your Bible and ours are exactly the same, except for some books deleted from the OT by the 'Reformers'. Those may be in your Bible too, listed as "Apocropha". Our NT is exactly the same as yours.

Would I be right in assuming that all the details of Mary's position and authority have been decided on by men in the "Church" and not by scripture.

We don't believe that all revelation is contained in the Sacred Scriptures. There are other things called (collectively) Sacred Tradition. Please note, Col, that when we say Tradition (with a capital T) we are referring to what the apostles taught the early Christian Church. There are things like our Sacraments, for instance, which are not clearly delineated -in practice- in the SS.

Like you, we know that Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

The word 'tradition' (with a small t) refers to human traditions.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

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