Meaning of Luke 12:10

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Define "Sanctifying Grace." So basically what it is, is denying God up until death?

The divine life of God living in you. With out it you can not be saved.

Denying God is wanting nothing to do with the Holy Spirit when he calls you to repentance and contrition of your sins.

ToxicReboMan · Dec 28, 2005

This is what the passage means to me. I am a beginner Catholic btw(by the way). So I am just giving my 2cents. Here goes:

People blaspheme the name of Jesus all the time. Yet even that can be forgiven. But as the Scripture says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not quite the same. What does this mean?

I don't know for sure but this is what it sounds like to me...

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when a person's soul rejects the Spirit of God for eternity. Hence, forgiveness is unattainable.

No single words or actions is my opinion would make it blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Its deep down in the soul. No matter what, that person who commits the unpardonable sin is one who does not repent for eternity.

God Bless you in your Christian walk.

ToxicReboMan · Dec 28, 2005

I agree with my Catholic brethren.

Globalnomad · Dec 28, 2005

Sorry guys, I still have a problem with this passage. Let's dig deeper, please.

As Milkman has pointed out, he has done all the things you listed - yet he is forgiven, since he has repented. So it cannot be simply that. And it doesn't make sense that it should be anything tied to being "unrepentant", because heck, even missing a Sunday Mass will not be forgiven you, if if you remain unrepentant until death! As for that priest on EWTN, he ends up basically denying that there is anything at all that cannot be forgiven if you repent. Thus simply denying the validity of this passage.

So there is still something we are not getting. Can anyone shed more light?

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

It is when we do these things unto death we commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Here is a thing JP2 wrote on it.

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0142/__PE.HTM

According to such an exegesis, "blasphemy" does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross. If man rejects the "convincing concerning sin" which comes from the Holy Spirit and which has the power to save, he also rejects the "coming" of the Counselor-that "coming" which was accomplished in the Paschal Mystery, in union with the redemptive power of Christ's Blood: the Blood which "purifies the conscience from dead works."

Look at it like someone who is sick and tells the doctor when he comes to heal him, I dont want anything to do with you, get away from me. The doctor cant heal him, not because he is unable or wont but because the sick person will have nothing to do with him.

TheMilkman · Dec 28, 2005

Well once or twice while I was an atheist I felt like something was tugging at my to become a Christian but I just ignored it. If God was doing the tugging then I am doomed to go to hell by that reasoning.

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Well once or twice while I was an atheist I felt like something was tugging at my to become a Christian but I just ignored it. If God was doing the tugging then I am doomed to go to hell by that reasoning.

If you would have died in that state.

Do you accept God now?

TheMilkman · Dec 28, 2005

Shelb5 said:
If you would have died in that state.

Do you accept God now?

Yes I do.

However, you quoted JP2 as saying:
"blasphemy" does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit.

That is so vague that I don't know if it means that I have to die an unbeliever to blaspheme or that if I reject the Spirit at any point in my life I have blasphemed. If the later is the case then that means I'm doomed as well as most others who have ever left Christianity (even if they return to Christianity).

The first verse I quoted said:

"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

That is so vague, I really wish the bible would have been more clear on the matter.

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

You don't commit the sin if you repent, you only commit the sin if you do not repent unto death and the sin is eternal when you reject God unto death. Before death you always have the chance to convert. Our fait is never sealed until death.

WarriorAngel · Dec 28, 2005

The question is not that the Milkman did these things...but they he did not know he did these things.

For once we know, it becomes the sin.

Yet, it is still the sin for those who never knew, but it becomes different once we are open to grace and refuse Him.

Milkman did not know...but because the Lord called Him with grace, he now knows.

BUT if a man refuses that grace, that man then blasphemes.

Hope this clarifies...

BECAUSE if we were to condemn the unbelievers who never knew, and never had grace...then how could they acquire grace...yet we know they do.

Scripture tells us to patiently teach, because later the unbeliever may repent.

And if the non believer never repents, it matters not that he never believed, but he refused grace and remained an unbeliever.

Hey...did this make sense?

ABlindManSees · Dec 28, 2005

Well, I'm no expert, but from what I understand, sin against the Holy Spirit would be believing that God exists, believing that Jesus Christ is His son and our Savior, but not obeying him.

Satan cannot receive forgiveness, one of these reasons is because he is too proud to obey God. He knows God is there, He knows what God's will is, but he refuses to follow it, because he'd rather have it his way.

This is the ultimate in rejecting God, because it is not ignorance, it isn't a lack of faith, what it boils down to is choosing yourself over God, and refusing His Love. That is, as I understand it, the meaning of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

TheMilkman · Dec 28, 2005

WarriorAngel said:
The question is not that the Milkman did these things...but they he did not know he did these things.

For once we know, it becomes the sin.

Yet, it is still the sin for those who never knew, but it becomes different once we are open to grace and refuse Him.

Milkman did not know...but because the Lord called Him with grace, he now knows.

BUT if a man refuses that grace, that man then blasphemes.

Hope this clarifies...

BECAUSE if we were to condemn the unbelievers who never knew, and never had grace...then how could they acquire grace...yet we know they do.

Scripture tells us to patiently teach, because later the unbeliever may repent.

And if the non believer never repents, it matters not that he never believed, but he refused grace and remained an unbeliever.

Hey...did this make sense?

Yeah it makes perfect sense. Unfortunatly, it brings up another issue. I was once a Christian until I was about 18 years old. I am now almost 22 and just recently returned to Christianity. That means that I did know and still rejected.

RedTulipMom · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Well once or twice while I was an atheist I felt like something was tugging at my to become a Christian but I just ignored it. If God was doing the tugging then I am doomed to go to hell by that reasoning.

NO! Because you eventually listened to that voice and came to him. What would have doomed you to hell would be saying NO to it till your death!

Knowledge3 · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
I am sure this has been answered before, but this verse really worries me. What does the verse Luke 12:10 mean? Here is what it says in the NAB (the KJV and others are almost identical on this verse):

"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

Then in Mark 3:29 the bible says:

"Whosoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

I worry about that verse too. I think the Holy Spirit knows your intentions and the condition of the heart as you learn about Him. Jesus seems to be referring to the attidude or mindset when reffering to the Holy Spirit. So that would mean that we learn to respect and welcome the Holy Spirit and enjoy Him as God's Presence.

RedTulipMom · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Yeah it makes perfect sense. Unfortunatly, it brings up another issue. I was once a Christian until I was about 18 years old. I am now almost 22 and just recently returned to Christianity. That means that I did know and still rejected.

but you came back!! i did the same thing. I left God for 3 yrs after becoming a Christian and then returned. If i would have waited till my death bed and 1 min before dying i turned back to God, i still would have been ok. Its only if you DIE unrepentant and not in Gods grace that you have blasphemed the spirit and its too late then.

WarriorAngel · Dec 28, 2005

That means you were christian but did not have grace....

GRACE is when we are fervent for God...and would die for God, and we would have the gifts of God..like understanding, Wisdom...all of that or some of that, but then denying Him after having all of that.

Ablindmansees said it pretty good.

For grace is what saves us.
A repentent yielding heart is how grace comes to us.

Being a christian in name only doesnt mean we have obtained grace.
Many are lukewarm....and the Lord shall spit them out.

But 'not knowing' means grace was not necessarily utilized. If we had it at all.

This is a difficult explanation.

BUT let's say this; IF someone had grace and they refuse the cooperation with grace, then they are accountable ........if someone never had grace, then how would they know?

Two parts;
God grants grace which is our salvation...cooperation with grace is our own way of working out our salvation.

It is only most problematic when we die under that circumstance lacking faith in Him.

Because if we believe in the Lord b4 death and our hearts are completely His, most likely we will be granted salvation.

So...here is the thing...
God's Grace has brought you fully back to Him... and now you UNDERSTAND and feel the need for full repentence....NOW you are utilizing the grace has granted you.

But if on your death bed you deny His being...you have blasphemed.

Alot of gr8 respones.

O yea...I have to tell you, I didnt exactly stop believing, but I didnt exactly obey the Church and I was lukewarm...
I also had a revelation that bestowed what I believe is a gr8 grace to believe.

Here was the kicker..when I started to feel the grace..and started on my journey back....I was breaking the hold that the world had on me...{Which is always a fight} and in that fight...I had doubts about my sinfullness and EXACTLY the same thing you are having.

This particular verses frightened me.

HOWEVER; You must know something right now...and this will comfort you.
satan is trying to plant doubts so you stumble and fall.

There is a BIG warfare going on right now. The fight for souls...so dont let the doubts and worry bother you.

IT is part of the breaking away from evil.

Peace!!!!

ABlindManSees · Dec 28, 2005

WarriorAngel said:
satan is trying to plant doubts so you stumble and fall.

There is a BIG warfare going on right now. The fight for souls...so dont let the doubts and worry bother you

St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle...

TheMilkman · Dec 28, 2005

WarriorAngel said:
HOWEVER; You must know something right now...and this will comfort you.
satan is trying to plant doubts so you stumble and fall.

There is a BIG warfare going on right now. The fight for souls...so dont let the doubts and worry bother you.

IT is part of the breaking away from evil.

Peace!!!!

Calling it a war has always bothered me. That implies that God has limits and has to war with Satan to retain his flock. It says in the bible that God created evil, so I guess it just means that God gave Satan the power to tempt us away from him to make the believers stronger in their faith.

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Yeah it makes perfect sense. Unfortunatly, it brings up another issue. I was once a Christian until I was about 18 years old. I am now almost 22 and just recently returned to Christianity. That means that I did know and still rejected.

It does not matter, you accepted the call to come back. You have not blasphemed him. You are the prodigal son, all of heaven is rejoicing because a sinner has repented.

The sin is eternal sin, unto death. It is when you reject unto death you blaspheme.

Benedicta00 · Dec 28, 2005

TheMilkman said:
Calling it a war has always bothered me. That implies that God has limits and has to war with Satan to retain his flock. It says in the bible that God created evil, so I guess it just means that God gave Satan the power to tempt us away from him to make the believers stronger in their faith.

It is what it is, a war for our soul. After a man has made peace with God through baptism, he is summoned to spiritual battle. This is a reality than none of the baptized can escape. The devil will not give you up that easily to grace. He is prince of this world and as ruler he will seek to devour you.

Meaning of Luke 12:10

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