Mean Calvinism

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
You put the words "before they embrace or know" implying that at some point the elect become Calvinists before they die. Am I understanding correctly?

I'm simply using the example (which includes myself) of believers that became believers before they become "Calvinists." If I died before I became a Calvinist I would still be have been saved.. Many understand their condition and come to the foot of the cross begging for and receiving mercy..Being a Calvinist doesn't make them "more saved", it is though a clearer and more biblical presentation of the gospel than Rome or Arminian "evangelicalism" will give.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
So only Calvinists can be elected and have eternal life according to the Calvinist perspective?

Please don't put words in my mouth. That isn't what I said at all. I have known, and was one myself, dead Calvinists. Calvinism isn't salvation it is doctrinal truth. Knowing Christ as He is revealed in the Scriptures is salvation. John 17:3

The truth of God isn't some kind of higher learning or better understanding that some have that others don't. It is simply truth. Calvinism, as a system, articulates that truth better than any other system of theology.

If you are seeking to learn about Calvinism ask legitimate questions rather than ones that twist what has been said. What I am seeing is that you are trying to debate without actually debating.

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

twin1954 said:
Please don't put words in my mouth. That isn't what I said at all. I have known, and was one myself, dead Calvinists. Calvinism isn't salvation it is doctrinal truth. Knowing Christ as He is revealed in the Scriptures is salvation. John 17:3

The truth of God isn't some kind of higher learning or better understanding that some have that others don't. It is simply truth. Calvinism, as a system, articulates that truth better than any other system of theology.

If you are seeking to learn about Calvinism ask legitimate questions rather than ones that twist what has been said. What I am seeing is that you are trying to debate without actually debating.

No bud, I'm trying to get a simple answer and I didn't realize it would be this difficult. All I am asking is who, from a Calvinist perspective, goes to heaven? If you say the elect go to heaven then my follow up question (to save an additional post) is "can the elect come from any Christian faith (baptists, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, non-denominational, etc) or even non-Christian faiths?

dhh712 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
Are the elect found even among Arminians who remain Arminians unto death?

I believe there are some that are. I believe that God's grace is not defined by a set of doctrines which one must have knowledge of (or accept as truth); rather it encompasses the gift which He bestows upon whomsoever He will which enables them to believe upon Christ as their Lord and Saviour. I don't feel that if you think you have willed it or that God has willed it condemns a person since all of us are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

Personally, I feel that having any experience of the holiness of God will convict a person of their inability to have done anything but be enslaved of their own desire to this world, so how anyone can think that they of their own will chose to believe in God is a mystery to me. Yet I can not judge the heart, only God can; that is the only way we can know beyond any doubt if a person does truly believe upon Christ--and therefore there is no way any of us mortals can ever know if someone else is truly saved because we can never truly know their heart (there can be some pretty good evidences of it, but you just can never really truly know it).

Keachian · Mar 23, 2014

twin1954 said:
I don't think that they are mean they are just zealous.

Zealotry can be mistaken for meanness sometimes

stenerson · Mar 24, 2014

There can be mean people holding to any doctrine..Being right on a subject doesn't always mean the person is behaving right.
But to be honest in forums and blogs and youtube I read a lot more anger and mean comments from Arminians.

stenerson · Mar 24, 2014

progmonk said:
cage-stagers?

I had to google that..

cubanito · Mar 25, 2014

saintboniface said:
So only Calvinists can be elected and have eternal life according to the Calvinist perspective?

An Arminian died and went straight to the pearly gates of Heaven (oh, shush about that actually being the New jerusalem ect, just read). There, of course, was St Peter to greet him and a huge crowd of believers. Inside there were 2 elevator doors, one tiny one marked Presbyterean Express, and another much larger with doors so well hidden they were only seen as they opened when Peter yelled "open sesame!" Singing loudly the huge crowd were led into the huge elevator were Peter pushed buttons and told which groups to get off on what floor, but the elevator often went past one floor to get back down as some groups were pressed all in th back. Curiously, everytime they approached the 274th floor, Peter called for everyone to be silent. Finally our happy Arminian was getting out he asked why the need for silence near the 274th floor, and "wassup" with this whole elevator thing?

"Well son," Peter explained through a wide grin, "here each floor is designed to grant the greatest fulfillment and joy to each of God's elect. Since we are all different, what pleases some, like golf courses, may not be the most suited to those who prefer a congested urban enviornment. The 274th floor is the only stop for the Presbyterean express elevator. They can not be happy unless they think they are the only ones in Heaven."

And so it is written.

JR, faithful PCA member

saintboniface · Mar 25, 2014

cubanito said:
An Arminian died and went straight to the pearly gates of Heaven (oh, shush about that actually being the New jerusalem ect, just read). There, of course, was St Peter to greet him and a huge crowd of believers. Inside there were 2 elevator doors, one tiny one marked Presbyterean Express, and another much larger with doors so well hidden they were only seen as they opened when Peter yelled "open sesame!" Singing loudly the huge crowd were led into the huge elevator were Peter pushed buttons and told which groups to get off on what floor, but the elevator often went past one floor to get back down as some groups were pressed all in th back. Curiously, everytime they approached the 274th floor, Peter called for everyone to be silent. Finally our happy Arminian was getting out he asked why the need for silence near the 274th floor, and "wassup" with this whole elevator thing?

"Well son," Peter explained through a wide grin, "here each floor is designed to grant the greatest fulfillment and joy to each of God's elect. Since we are all different, what pleases some, like golf courses, may not be the most suited to those who prefer a congested urban enviornment. The 274th floor is the only stop for the Presbyterean express elevator. They can not be happy unless they think they are the only ones in Heaven."

And so it is written.

JR, faithful PCA member

Apologetic_Warrior · Mar 26, 2014

saintboniface said:
All I am asking is who, from a Calvinist perspective, goes to heaven? If you say the elect go to heaven then my follow up question (to save an additional post) is "can the elect come from any Christian faith (baptists, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, non-denominational, etc) or even non-Christian faiths?

If I may, would like to give a response. From a Calvinist perspective, election originates before the foundation of the world, before time in eternity, in the blessed plan of salvation from eternity, or the Covenant of Redemption between the persons of the Holy Trinity.

Those elect as a corporation of elected individuals from the foundation of the world, consists of all those God chose, the children of God. The elect may be from all nations, tongues, tribes, races, ages, genders, body types, economic status, social status, and so on throughout the history of the world.

Not only can the elect come from any Christian faith, but those particular people of God before the incarnate Christ, waiting on the promised Messiah. Not only these but children under the Covenant of Redemption, whom pass in infancy, these too are elect. None of the non-elect can change the mind of God or correct His omniscience. However there are two perspective to election, the divine and the human. From our human perspective, (aside from personal assurance) we know not (with certainty) whom God chose from eternity, before the foundation of the world, before we were born.

Does this help answer your questions?

saintboniface · Mar 27, 2014

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Does this help answer your questions?

It helps, thanks, but I still need more clarification. The elect can come from any Christian faith. Does that mean they will ultimately become Calvinist in theology before they die or does that mean they can hold beliefs contrary to Calvinism at the time of death?

JM · Mar 27, 2014

saintboniface said:
It helps, thanks, but I still need more clarification. The elect can come from any Christian faith. Does that mean they will ultimately become Calvinist in theology before they die or does that mean they can hold beliefs contrary to Calvinism at the time of death?

All true Christians will look back on their lives and give all credit to God. They will give thanks for the blessings they have received, acknowledge their chastening when it was needed, and thank God for the increase of the faithful He has given the church. All Christians presuppose Calvinism practically even if they deny it theologically. Even the most ardent Arminian free will, works religion promoter will comfort one who suffers or morns with works like, "God is in control," "God has a purpose in this (evil)," or "God's will be done." No Arminian ever tells a person, "God acts randomly and without reason," or "your husband should've been more spiritual and maybe he would have been saved."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

cubanito · Mar 27, 2014

No created being will ever be able to look back and understand the workings of God. We are able to see the trustworthiness of God in so many ways that, both by self-evident reason AND our emotional trust in Him, we will all acknowledge that God did in fact elect irresistably. However, from our viewpoint as immortal but not eternal beings, we will forever hold the Absolute Truth of Soverign monergistic election as faith in what we can not fully comprehend and see. As billions of years in Glory roll by, it shall become more evident how little our so-called "free will" ever mattered; but we will always remain with a limited perspective, and therefore, within our relative and impartial understanding, we will have free will.

Because He has so chosen, God allows us to apprehend Him in a real and meaningful way. However, we are not designed, no creature can ever, comprehend Him.

Call it an illusion, but our free will remains and Arminius is correct that Grace is resistable. Yet we know that the ultimate Truth is that there is a TULIP growing in Eternity.

JR, the CalvArminian

Apologetic_Warrior · Mar 27, 2014

saintboniface said:
It helps, thanks, but I still need more clarification. The elect can come from any Christian faith. Does that mean they will ultimately become Calvinist in theology before they die or does that mean they can hold beliefs contrary to Calvinism at the time of death?

Good question, does salvation depend solely upon mental ascension to particular (Scriptural) propositions , or is there more to salvation than mental ascension?

Neither infants under the Covenant of Redemption, nor those severely mentally handicapped among the elect have the ability to ascent to mental propositions requiring the capacity to grasp concepts out of the range of their abilities. It should be obvious, salvation is more than mental ascension, that it depends not on man, but on Him who has mercy.

Salvation is impossible with man, but with God all things are possible.

The sheep with the capacity will follow the great Shepherd, and depend on Him for their needs, the sheep without the capacity, He will carry. Ultimately though different, they desire to become more and more like their Shepherd.

If you get a chance, read C.H. Spurgeon's defense of Calvinism, in it he moreorless say's that a "Calvinist" is another word for Christian, and that's how I see it. All true Christians by the grace and mercy of God, become more like Christ and over time through spending time reading Scripture and prayer come closer to the unity of "Biblicism". So in glory, walking the streets of gold, we'll all be Biblicistss.

JustAsIam77 · Mar 28, 2014

I think Calvinism is a natural progression after a saved individual yearns to know more about Gods plan of redemption, one wanting to divide scripture to find the truth, i.e. election, the doctrines of grace, the sovereignty of God. But John 3:16 works for me also.

J0SHUA · Mar 31, 2014

Here's an interesting article of what God is if "Calvinism" is denied. http://reformedinquisitor.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/if-calvinism-is-denied/
Most non-Calvinists like these ideas. If not everyone is going to be saved, they want it to be because of powerlessness (rather than choice) from God.

GQ Chris · May 18, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ZRb2BByUg

Gnarwhal · May 19, 2014

I'll admit, I characterized Calvinists in a poor way. I often thought of Calvinism as sadistic, relishing the damnation of others because it tries to clearly define those who are the elect from those who aren't.

I've softened up to it a lot over the months, and have realized that a lot of the views and beliefs I've always held were Calvinist beliefs. So, I have a newfound appreciation for it and in all honesty probably identify most closely with Reformed theology than anything else.

GQ Chris · May 19, 2014

My curiosity was peeked all the more by Calvinism; I wanted to know who this Sovereign God is that they spoke of, came to discover it's the God of the Bible. Arminian churches taught of a God that "you" need to make a decision for, and one who is not Sovereign. This god was all about you and your agenda, making sure you were happy, that you were fulfilled, that catered to your every whim with cherries on top.

AMR · May 19, 2014

stenerson said:
Question number one :Yes

Question number two: Calvinist believe in the means of grace.. The means by which God will bring in His elect.. Among them is evangelism (the teaching, sharing, preaching of the gospel good news. ) And prayer of His saints..Which is why we can pray boldly for even the most vile, blasphemous, rebellious sinner..We believe God saves. The prayer of His saints is described in Revelation as a fragrant incense which comes before the throne of God. It pleases God to include the prayers of His plan to save His elect.

Exactly. Well done.

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