Maybe He's lying?

[Non sequitur]

This is one question I can't wrap my head around.

When I have asked, "How do you know that God is who he says he is?", the most frequent response is either one answer, the other or both.

- Bible verses are quoted
- He says he is

The problem with these are:

You can't use Bible verses as true, without first establishing that the speaker/source of the material is telling the truth.

You can't say whether God is lying by saying, "God cant/doesn't lie", because he defined himself that way. That is circular logic.

To accept he is who he says he is, first we have to believe his claims. If he gets to validate his claims, by simply saying they are valid because they can't be otherwise, all we have established is that, he got to make those claims about himself.

That in no way validates any of his claims.



I fell I should give an example of the circular logic part, because it seems to be used a lot.

Me: "How do you know he is who he says he is and not someone else?"
Christian: "Because he is the truth and perfect. He can not."
Me: "And how do you know that he actually is those things?"
Christian: "Because it/he says so in the Bible."
Me: "And who wrote the Bible?"
Christian: "Man, but the Bible is God's word, not man's. God would not allow His Holy Word to be corrupted by man."
Me: "Ok. So, how do you know God wasn't giving man misinformation?"
Christian: "Because he is the truth and perfect. He can not..."

 

[Mr Dave]

Alright then, what does God say He is?
There's much attributed to God, than God claims for Himself.

 

[brinny]

This is one question I can't wrap my head around.

When I have asked, "How do you know that God is who he says he is?", the most frequent response is either one answer, the other or both.

- Bible verses are quoted
- He says he is

The problem with these are:

You can't use Bible verses as true, without first establishing that the speaker/source of the material is telling the truth.

You can't say whether God is lying by saying, "God cant/doesn't lie", because he defined himself that way. That is circular logic.

To accept he is who he says he is, first we have to believe his claims. If he gets to validate his claims, by simply saying they are valid because they can't be otherwise, all we have established is that, he got to make those claims about himself.

That in no way validates any of his claims.



I fell I should give an example of the circular logic part, because it seems to be used a lot.

Me: "How do you know he is who he says he is and not someone else?"
Christian: "Because he is the truth and perfect. He can not."
Me: "And how do you know that he actually is those things?"
Christian: "Because it/he says so in the Bible."
Me: "And who wrote the Bible?"
Christian: "Man, but the Bible is God's word, not man's. God would not allow His Holy Word to be corrupted by man."
Me: "Ok. So, how do you know God wasn't giving man misinformation?"
Christian: "Because he is the truth and perfect. He can not..."

Do you ask because you desire to know this God, or do you ask because you are tweaked or disturbed by those Bible verses because you fear they may be true...or is there another reason? why do you ask?

 

[Non sequitur]

Alright then, what does God say He is?
There's much attributed to God, than God claims for Himself.

Whatever you believe he says he is.

So, given whatever that is, how do you know that (whatever) God (you believe in) is who he says he is?

Pretty simple question.

 

[Non sequitur]

...or is there another reason? why do you ask?

I ask because it's a relevant question, in order to believe what Christians believe. The title of the thread is "exploring Christianity".

Do you ask because you desire to know this God, or do you ask because you are tweaked or disturbed by those Bible verses because you fear they may be true

Whether I care to know him, I am tweaked by any verses or any other reasons, it is irrelevant to me asking why you do.

If you don't want to answer, then fine.

I would just ask, kindly, that you not answer my question with a question.

 

[abysmul]

I come to my faith in Jesus Christ through a long road that included dabbling in the occult, atheism, humanism, study of religions of the world, introspection, study of the Bible, prayer, study of history, more prayer, and even more prayer. I have faith.

It's not like I sat down and just decided to pick up a random book and shape my life around it, if I had I'd prolly be living in a Hobbit Hole.

 

[Non sequitur]

I come to my faith in Jesus Christ through a long road that included dabbling in the occult, atheism, humanism, study of religions of the world, introspection, study of the Bible, prayer, study of history, more prayer, and even more prayer. I have faith.

It's not like I sat down and just decided to pick up a random book and shape my life around it, if I had I'd prolly be living in a Hobbit Hole.

Was there a book handed out to Christians on how to not answer questions?

I didn't ask what your long road was.

I just asked how do you know he isn't lying to you?

 

[abysmul]

Was there a book handed out to Christians on how to not answer questions?

I didn't ask what your long road was.

I just asked how do you know he isn't lying to you?

I answered: I have faith.

 

[Non sequitur]

I answered: I have faith.

Great.

What did you base your complete trust or confidence in someone/something?

 

[brinny]

Was there a book handed out to Christians on how to not answer questions?

I didn't ask what your long road was.

I just asked how do you know he isn't lying to you?

Do you have any evidence that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham IS lying?

 

[aiki]

This is one question I can't wrap my head around.

When I have asked, "How do you know that God is who he says he is?", the most frequent response is either one answer, the other or both.

- Bible verses are quoted
- He says he is

This is how Christians have answered your question? Really? Too many Christians have lost the capacity to reason out their faith...

The problem with these are:

You can't use Bible verses as true, without first establishing that the speaker/source of the material is telling the truth.

I think there is good reason to believe the record of Scripture. Detailing all of the reasons, however, has filled entire volumes, so I'm not going to attempt to do so here. Any number of Christian apologetic websites can give you a good basic summary of the reasons for trusting the record of the Bible. Here are just a few:

Stand to Reason: Stand to Reason: Equipping Christian Ambassadors with Knowledge, Wisdom, and Character.
Reasonable Faith:
CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Reasons To Believe: Hugh Ross, Fazale Rana, Kenneth Samples, David Rogstad, Jeff Zweerink

You can't say whether God is lying by saying, "God cant/doesn't lie", because he defined himself that way. That is circular logic.

Uh huh.

To accept he is who he says he is, first we have to believe his claims. If he gets to validate his claims, by simply saying they are valid because they can't be otherwise, all we have established is that, he got to make those claims about himself.

That in no way validates any of his claims.

Quite right - which is why God hasn't just left us with "because I said so." No, God has done more than merely say that we ought to trust Him. He has entered human history as one of us and died on a cross to save us from our sin. In this God has given us the ultimate demonstration of His love for us and the quality of His character.

John 15:13
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

We can trust a God who is willing to go to such lengths on our behalf.

There is also the record of Scripture which details God's dealings with His creatures. In that record we see God is holy, just, compassionate, merciful, and gracious. He is also angry with the destructive and rebellious deeds of the wicked, and wrathful in His judgment of their sin. He is a jealous lover of His people and demands of them a high and holy lifestyle. Can we trust such a God? I think so - and so do millions of others.

Finally, there is the daily experience of God that confirms to each believer the claims that Scripture makes about His character and purposes. I have walked with God for forty some years now and have found Him to be the loving, holy, patient, merciful and gracious God the Bible tells me He is.


Selah.

 

[Non sequitur]

Do you have any evidence that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham IS lying?

Whether I have proof of not is irrelevant to my question.

You can't assert that a proposition is true, because it has not been proven false.

 

[abysmul]

Great.

What did you base your complete trust or confidence in someone/something?

I answered that... see my description of the road I traveled to get to my faith. Summary: years of study of both Biblical and non-Biblical thoughts/beliefs/philosophies, prayer, introspection, and as I searched and came to my faith... guidance by the Holy Spirit.

It's really great, you should try it.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Do you have any evidence that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham IS lying?

Whether I have proof of not is irrelevant to my question.

You can't assert that a proposition is true, because it has not been proven false.

What would prompt you to wonder if He IS lying? Did you catch Him in a lie? Was He caught red-handed? Do you believe the Bible to be a myth? Do you believe this God of Abraham, this God of the Bible to be a myth? If you do, why would it matter to you if He is lying? After all, He'd merely be a figment of your imagination, wouldn't He?

 

[Non sequitur]

Quite right - which is why God hasn't just left us with "because I said so." No, God has done more than merely say that we ought to trust Him. He has entered human history as one of us and died on a cross to save us from our sin. In this God has given us the ultimate demonstration of His love for us and the quality of His character.

In order to believe, "dies on a cross to save us form our sins", you have to believe the Bible.

If you are believing the Bible as true, then you have to accept that God (essentially) wrote it.

Naturally, you can't accept something as true, unless you accept the source saying it (happened for those reasons) is truthful.

You can't say the source is truthful, only using evidence that declares that it is truthful.

That means you can't use any source in as an example for validating the claim. ("died on a cross to save us from our sin").

Which leads back to my question, how do you know he wan't lying about who he says he is?

We can trust a God who is willing to go to such lengths on our behalf.

He could have any number of reasons or ulterior motives to do so.

Your trust is unfounded and clouded by your interpretation.

There is also the record of Scripture which details God's dealings with His creatures. In that record we see God is holy, just, compassionate, merciful, and gracious. He is also angry with the destructive and rebellious deeds of the wicked, and wrathful in His judgment of their sin. He is a jealous lover of His people and demands of them a high and holy lifestyle. Can we trust such a God? I think so - and so do millions of others.

Again, you are reaching a conclusion based on your preconceived notion about who God is, based on what he said he was.

Finally, there is the daily experience of God that confirms to each believer the claims that Scripture makes about His character and purposes. I have walked with God for forty some years now and have found Him to be the loving, holy, patient, merciful and gracious God the Bible tells me He is.

And yet, again, he could be lying or misleading you the whole time and you wouldn't know otherwise.

 

[Non sequitur]

What would prompt you to wonder if He IS lying? Did you catch Him in a lie? Was He caught red-handed? Do you believe the Bible to be a myth? Do you believe this God of Abraham, this God of the Bible to be a myth? If you do, why would it matter to you if He is lying? After all, He'd merely be a figment of your imagination, wouldn't He?

I ask one question and am met with a myriad of questions.

My responses have nothing to do with your answering that question, unless you just want to be a troll or evasive

Did I catch him in a lie? Really???

You can't assert that a proposition is true, because it has not been proven false.

I'm going to assume you have no answer, since you have given none.

 

[Non sequitur]

I answered that... see my description of the road I traveled to get to my faith. Summary: years of study of both Biblical and non-Biblical thoughts/beliefs/philosophies, prayer, introspection, and as I searched and came to my faith... guidance by the Holy Spirit.

It's really great, you should try it.

And if you accepted any Biblical study as true... then it was the foundation and justification of everything.

If you prayed, you would have no alternative but to believe it was God that was listening. Prior to your acceptance of it or not, it was your conclusion.

And without the Bible, you would have never arrived at it to be the truth. It wouldn't have established itself as an option.

So everything you mention can only be arrived at if you believe the Bible. It sets precedence.

And again, in order to believe it's truth (i.e. setting precedence for your beliefs and/or reality), how do you know he isn't lying or misleading you?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
What would prompt you to wonder if He IS lying? Did you catch Him in a lie? Was He caught red-handed? Do you believe the Bible to be a myth? Do you believe this God of Abraham, this God of the Bible to be a myth? If you do, why would it matter to you if He is lying? After all, He'd merely be a figment of your imagination, wouldn't He?

I ask one question and am met with a myriad of questions.

My responses have nothing to do with your answering that question, unless you just want to be a troll or evasive

Did I catch him in a lie? Really???

You can't assert that a proposition is true, because it has not been proven false.

I'm going to assume you have no answer, since you have given none.

Of course you are met with a myriad of questions. It surprises you?

What would prompt you to ask this?

Maybe He's lying?

Surely there was "something" that prompted it? Did the question come to mind as you were reading the Bible?

What is your question based on? An experience? A troubling scripture? Wondering if this "mythical" God is real enough to even wonder if HE exists, and if so, that He "lied"?

I don't wonder if Zeus "lied", but that is because i don't believe he was ever "real". I dismiss thoughts of him as i do with other fleeting thoughts of things that are not real. On the other hand, i DO wonder about things that are "real". I "ponder" over them.

 

[abysmul]

And if you accepted any Biblical study as true... then it was the foundation and justification of everything.

If you prayed, you would have no alternative but to believe it was God that was listening. Prior to your acceptance of it or not, it was your conclusion.

And without the Bible, you would have never arrived at it to be the truth. It wouldn't have established itself as an option.

So everything you mention can only be arrived at if you believe the Bible. It sets precedence.

And again, in order to believe it's truth (i.e. setting precedence for your beliefs and/or reality), how do you know he isn't lying or misleading you?

Again, I've answered that: I have faith based on my experiences.

 

[mr73140]

By faith Christians believe that the Bible is absolute. I would like to challenge you to ask God if He is real; or if Abraham was lying. It is quite silly to debate such a question for only Yahew...Jehovah God can touch your harden heart, mind, and sould. My prayer for you: Father God, please touch Non sequitur's heart. Speak to him so that he will no longer doult; but by faith believe upon You. In Jesus name; so be it. Listen intently; His voice is unmistakeable.