May I ask for your perspective/thoughts?

[Suzannah]

As some here know, I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy. I grew up in Baptist and Assemblies of God missionary churches in Africa and the Middle East. In reflecting upon many things, it has really struck me as particularly odd that I did not encounter "anti-Catholic/Orthodox" feeling until I returned to the US as an adult. I was never taught in these protestant missionary churches that Catholics/Orthodox were not Christians. Additionally, I simply never heard all the "Mary worship", "idolatry" arguments when I was growing up. Simply put, the missionaries I knew well, and who "spiritually" raised me, were very often in loose/unofficial partnership with the Catholic church to achieve various missions : medical aid, food, education, etc. This has been growing on my mind. I have no solid research on it, it's just my anecdotal experience and it troubles me.

I would really appreciate your perspective: Is this general anti-Catholic feeling unique to America? Although I am in fact, Irish from Donegal, and can testify to the "Troubles" there, these are primarily politically motivated and are not easily classified...it seems as though this thing is carefully cultivated and is spreading from here, from America....will you offer your thoughts?

 

[Michelina]

... I did not encounter "anti-Catholic/Orthodox" feeling until I returned to the US as an adult. I was never taught in these protestant missionary churches that Catholics/Orthodox were not Christians. Additionally, I simply never heard all the "Mary worship", "idolatry" arguments when I was growing up.....
.... Is this general anti-Catholic feeling unique to America? ...it seems as though this thing is carefully cultivated and is spreading from here, from America....will you offer your thoughts?

Much of it is about converts. In order to convert poorly informed Catholics, anti-Catholic myths are created and enhanced. Preaching this ignorant bigotry brings in the sheep.

But there is also much honest ignorance behind it as well. Looking at the two forms of Christianity makes one realize that they are very different both in fundamentals and in practices.That's why I refer to the sad sixteenth century as the Protestant Deformation.

 

[nyj]

Is this general anti-Catholic feeling unique to America?

It most certainly flourished during the periods of immigration (early to mid 1800's). The USA was, for a long time, predominantly a WASP (White, Anglo, Saxon, Protestant) country. When the influx of both Italian and Irish immigrants began, there was huge backlash. The "Know-Nothing Party" was one such movement.

The 4th item on their Presidential Election Platform was:
4. War to the hilt, on political Romanism. Seen Here.

Though I hate to recommend a movie, I think the movie Gangs of New York did a good job portraying the Know Nothing Party and their tactics. This review on that movie doesn't agree, but it does shed some light on the history of the period.

[N]ativists included among their number some of America’s elite leaders and thinkers. Indeed, the nativists’ anti-Catholicism had a long history among American elites. Some of the country’s founders believed that Anglo-Saxon culture was basically identical with Western Civilization. Catholicism, in their view, was incompatible with democracy and religious freedom. As a delegate drafting the New York State Constitution, for example, John Jay successfully pushed for an amendment forbidding practitioners of religions with leaders located beyond American shores—like, say, the pope in Rome—from becoming U.S. citizens (the federal government eventually took over the responsibility of granting citizenship, rendering such state restrictions void). Fear that the pope was telling American Catholics what to do and think characterized the opinions of elite figures like John Quincy Adams, Samuel Morse, and P. T. Barnum, and continued right up to the presidential election of John Kennedy, who during his campaign had to promise a group of Protestant ministers that he would be faithful to the U.S. Constitution.

 

[marciadietrich]

I grew up in the Assemblies of God (two of my great uncles were AoG ministers). It wasn't constant but I heard various antiCatholic sentiments over the years. A group asked Uncle Lawrence if Catholics are saved, he basically said some are, about 10 percent (always wonder what percentage AoG people would have gotten, lol) and it is always "despite" being Catholic not because they were Catholic. In my teen Sunday school class there was adding up of names to 666 and the Pope titles among that (and Henry Kissinger). Comments that Catholics believe they can sin all they want and just go to confession, which seems to me that is someone who had never been to confession before!

I believe there is a particular brand of antiCatholic thought in America, that in part is wedged into groups who wanted to reject fundamental beliefs of Christianity such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the 7th Day Adventists, other splinter groups that arose in the United States during the 1800's to early 1900's.

http://www.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/brimstone/america.html love that website

Marcia

 

[marciadietrich]

I think also Polish immigrants probably the same problem as the Irish and Italian immigrants being discriminated against. But there was also some strife BETWEEN Catholic immigrant groups. Talking to some people about the Catholic school system in Leavenworth the older people recall what a big deal it was when the various parishes merged, one being Italian (? - I believe), one Irish, one Polish, into an integrated school system.

Marcia

 

[Michelina]

The predominantly Irish clergy did not understand some of the ethnic piety of other groups and this caused bitter divisions, the formation of a schismatic Polish Church and the establishment of National parishes in the big cities as a remedy from Rome.

In re: antiCatholicism: xenophobia was quite common among the WASP population and antiCatholicism was partly exacerbated by that. The establishment of public school systems was driven by Protestant desires to 'acculturate' their inferiors.

 

[Suzannah]

Thank you all for your responses! I am deeply troubled by this trend. As I said, it was never part of the missionary environment I grew up in, abroad. But I do see the historical connections to it in America, thanks to you , and also to a few other posters in TAW. It is very troubling indeed! And quite frightening....

 

[Mulutka]

I'm a Polish Canadian and have never in my life experienced striff by other Catholics.. but I must stress that I'm a Canadian. I think that things are really really different here. My Polish great-grandmother went to a Polish Catholic church (in Windsor, Ontario) and her husband went to a Russian Orthodox church and they never had trouble about that either.

Canada definatly has its own history of Protestants and Catholics competing for the most converts (in our founding years) but I really never experienced any problem myself. I'm not sure how it is in the States, but here in Canada our Catholic schools are really open about accepting kids from all sorts of denominations.

 

[jgaudino]

Suzannah HI!

WOnderful treatment of this subject in a new book from a Protestant author who actually left the Catholic Church but still found the subject interesting (I believe he is a Prof of Sociology or anthropology - one of the two) enough to write a whole book about.

"The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice" by Philip Jenkins

If you can grab it at your ilbrary or bookstore it is very much worth the read. He speaks of this wierd "American" style of anti-Catholicism that appears so rampant that we have sadly come to just accept it.

If I can find it there was an interview with the author for download or to listen to online (Real format). I'll post it later if I can dig it up!

Peace - John

 

[jgaudino]

Suzannah

Here are the links:

To Download to your computer and listen later:

ftp://radio.catholic.com/calive/2004/ca040122.rm

To Listen online (streaming media for real player):

http://radio.catholic.com:8080/ramgen/catholic/radio/calive/2004/ca040122.rm


Peace - John

 

[Veritas]

Ah, Suzannah. You have brought up a point I've made elsewhere before. Anti-Catholic/Orthodox bigotry is truly an American phenomenon. As other's have pointed out, its roots can be traced back to the original pilgrim settlers. Many are aware that the pilgrims came to American (the New World) to escape religious persecution. Considering that they were Protestants, have you ever wondered what type of persecution they could have been suffering in Protestant England?

By the time the Mayflower set sail, anti-Catholicism was on the wane in the Britain; It was no longer as acceptable to persecute, torture and kill Catholics. The KJV bible also still contained the so-called Aprocrypha, known as the Deuterocanonicals among us. (In fact, it was against the law to publish a bible without them.) The pilgrims though, viciously hated Catholics and continued their persecutions of them. In turn, they were pressured to stop their practices and be more tolerant. They wouldn't and then they themselves became ostricized in British society. Because they wanted to leave the pressure (and Catholics) and nuture their hatred, they decided to leave the UK and come to America. One of the first things they did was to get rid of the deuterocanoncials.

Thus, the founding of American society and culture had an anti-Catholic basis. Now, I could get into a lot of detail how this all played out especially in the public education system with Horace Mann, etc. but I think you get the picture. From those origins, America has always attracted and fostered an anti-Catholic sentiment that still exists and is fomented more recently by Modern Evangelicalism, particularly those faith traditions based on Dispensationalism. One thing you'll notice, is that those churches that have a dispensational POV and biblical interpretation, who believe in a pre-trib., pre-wrath secret rapture, and are non-liturgical (even anti-liturgical), there is a strong anti-Catholic environment.

Moreover, except where exported by these types of Evangelical missionaries, you'll not find the level of vitriol in almost any other part of the world. Sad but true. This is one of the reasons the priest sex abuse scandal has taken on larger than life dimensions. The media has tried and been successful at portraying it as primarily a Catholic problem, when in fact, it's just as much a problem in Protestant and Jewish congregations (among many institutions)

Great Question!

 

[KennySe]

As the Spanish (Catholics) and the French (Catholics) settled in the very south of the North Amrican continent and the very west of the North American continent BEFORE the English and/or Americans moved in... we don't read of anti-ProtestantChurches from the Spanish and French.

 

[Suzannah]

John: This is truly grand!!!! Fantastic! Exactly what I am speaking of...so happy to get this book recommendation from you. I shall look for it at the library this week. Thank you so much for this! Exactly what I was seeking...a comprehensive treatment of the subject. I listened to the radio programme you posted. EXCELLENT. Highly recommend to anyone else lurking!!!!

Mulutka: Glad to hear that Canada is escaping this abberant behaviour. It is truly ODD....as I said, I did not see this in the Protestant missionary field abroad, but it is absolutely rampant here, and "rabid" in its nature....terrible!!!!
Thanks for sharing about Canada...(I love Montreal!)


thanks again everyone!
Your sister in Christ,
Suzannah

 

[Suzannah]

As the Spanish (Catholics) and the French (Catholics) settled in the very south of the North Amrican continent and the very west of the North American continent BEFORE the English and/or Americans moved in... we don't read of anti-ProtestantChurches from the Spanish and French.

Exactly why it appears to be so very odd, to a "naturlized" American, even a Protestant one, when examining American history....Thanks so much for your thoughts, always!

 

[Suzannah]

Ah, Suzannah. You have brought up a point I've made elsewhere before. Anti-Catholic/Orthodox bigotry is truly an American phenomenon. As other's have pointed out, its roots can be traced back to the original pilgrim settlers. Many are aware that the pilgrims came to American (the New World) to escape religious persecution. Considering that they were Protestants, have you ever wondered what type of persecution they could have been suffering in Protestant England?

By the time the Mayflower set sail, anti-Catholicism was on the wane in the Britain; It was no longer as acceptable to persecute, torture and kill Catholics. The KJV bible also still contained the so-called Aprocrypha, known as the Deuterocanonicals among us. (In fact, it was against the law to publish a bible without them.) The pilgrims though, viciously hated Catholics and continued their persecutions of them. In turn, they were pressured to stop their practices and be more tolerant. They wouldn't and then they themselves became ostricized in British society. Because they wanted to leave the pressure (and Catholics) and nuture their hatred, they decided to leave the UK and come to America. One of the first things they did was to get rid of the deuterocanoncials.

Thus, the founding of American society and culture had an anti-Catholic basis. Now, I could get into a lot of detail how this all played out especially in the public education system with Horace Mann, etc. but I think you get the picture. From those origins, America has always attracted and fostered an anti-Catholic sentiment that still exists and is fomented more recently by Modern Evangelicalism, particularly those faith traditions based on Dispensationalism. One thing you'll notice, is that those churches that have a dispensational POV and biblical interpretation, who believe in a pre-trib., pre-wrath secret rapture, and are non-liturgical (even anti-liturgical), there is a strong anti-Catholic environment.

Moreover, except where exported by these types of Evangelical missionaries, you'll not find the level of vitriol in almost any other part of the world. Sad but true. This is one of the reasons the priest sex abuse scandal has taken on larger than life dimensions. The media has tried and been successful at portraying it as primarily a Catholic problem, when in fact, it's just as much a problem in Protestant and Jewish congregations (among many institutions)

Great Question!

Fantastic post Veritas. Exactly what I, an outsider to American society, have been thinking.

Especially being Irish (whose ancestors converted from Rome to Protestantism to avoid persecution), I have always been keenly aware of this oddness since coming to 'America in the late 80's....after that, I spent a great deal of time at sea, with American sailors, most of whom could have cared less, but whose "puritan" roots shone through like a beacon at 30 nautical miles...this "puritan" outlook has always been very foriegn to me.

 

[Suzannah]

Though I hate to recommend a movie, I think the movie Gangs of New York did a good job portraying the Know Nothing Party and their tactics. This review on that movie doesn't agree, but it does shed some light on the history of the period.

Dear NYJ: I saw this film and found it completely "foriegn" to an Irish mindset, although I did appreciate the Catholic point of view that was portrayed. It was not very "Irish" if you can understand that, yet I felt deeply that this was a primarily AMERICAN struggle for the Irish, which I do not yet understand but deeply wish to penetrate....The persecution as portrayed in the film of course has its corollary in the Irish "tenant" farmer, but it was largely incomprehensible to me because of the politics. I need to study more deeply I think, about the American experience.