Matthew

[Called2Grace]

I'll just throw in my 2 cents, by faith we are saved, but what sort of salvation is it if we don't do anything with it? Generally speaking most people who have faith, want to please God, and will start to change and start doing things for him. Those that don't, do they really understand or appreciate what faith really is? Faith is what moves us to perform works, out of love and appreciation for the greatest gift in the world. They go hand in hand. It is a gift in that we don't earn it, God has chosen to offer it to us, but like any gift, we have to receive it.

Anyway that is just my two cents.

 

[Dispy]

"We members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, are saved by FAITH ALONE just as Abram was back in Genesis 15 and the children of Israel were saved BY FAITH PLUS WORKS the same as Abraham was in Genesis 22. "

I find the term "works" ambiguous, and much could be written concerning "works" in James 2. I have tried to clarify by introducing another term to distinguish between works of the law and the fruit of faith, and would apply the term fruit of faith to the term "works" in James 2, not works of the law, or even works of law (with some reservation - part of our faith is to obey law). Abraham's response, and what he did in response to the command of Genesis 22:2 is not works of law.:Judging from a law viewpoint, Genesis 22 is murder. If you allow this distinction between works of law and fruits of faith, I think your expressed view of Genesis 22 is not "fruit of faith", because you apply Genesis 22 as equivalent to Israel under the law. They were required to do things that were initially outside of faith, not understanding the reason for the enactment, in obedience to the Law. But I accept faith alone as the basis of initial saving faith, when God justifies the believer, eg Genesis 15:6. After this, faith must grow, develop, and manifest itself in fruits of faith. We need to walk by faith. I do not believe in OSAS. Without growth and faithfulness we will be rejected. Paul before his conversion was a champion of works of the law Philippians 3:4-6.

I fail to see where the "works of Law" are ambiguous. Works means works. However, in this dispensation of GRACE through FAITH, and saved "unto good works" (Eph.2:10), and the deed/works of the believer should be the fruit of one's faith. So it appears that you are trying to change the meaning of words to fit what you wish to believe.

Abraham was commanded by God to offer up Isaac. However, faithful Abraham did so by believing that God would raise his son up from the dead (Heb.11:17-19). Also, this was many years prior to the Law being given to Moses. However, God did give the punishment for murder to Noah back in Gen.9:6.

Consistent with you view of faith alone, and dispensation of grace, you seem forced to reject the practise of water baptism for those who heard Paul's preaching. Again from an earlier reply

"The baptism mentioned in Gal.3:27 is not referring to the water ceremony."

And from your latest reply

"Yes Paul did baptize some in his early ministry, prior to his receiving the full revelation of the mystery. You cannot show me where he baptized AFTER he received the full knowledge of the mystery."

When did Paul receive the full knowledge of the mystery? after his 2nd Missionary Journey? Paul baptised some at Corinth, and most probably his travelling companions baptised some others. And as he preached to the Galatians before this, they must have also submitted to water baptism.

Paul received the "full knowledge of the mystery" while he was in prison, just prior to his death in approx AD 63. God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in approx AD 34, raised up Saul/Paul shortly thereafter; to usher in this dispensation of Grace. From the time of Saul's/Paul's conversion, until his death, there was a transition from the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of Grace. During this transition period the Pentecostal "sign gift" started to deminish, as Paul said they would, as more and more of the revelation of the mystery was revealed to Paul.

In all of Paul's writing that were prior to Acts 28:28 (1&2 Thess, Gal, 1&2 Cor, Rom [?]), we can still see evidence of signs/miracles/wonders/tongues and legal ceremonies, however they were deminishing; as Paul said they would. In all of Pau's writings after Acts 28:28 (Eph, Col, Phi, Heb [?], Phill, Titus w1&2Tim, Rom [?], we find none of the above. Also, in the books that the disciples wrote after Hebrews, in the NT, one can no longer find any of the Pentecostal "sign gifts." (I placed a [?] behind Romans and Hebrews because there is some question as to when Romans was written, and much controversity as to who wrote the book of Hebrews.)

Like I said earlier, one cannot find where Paul baptized anyone after he received the full knowledge of the mystery.

I have not had time to consider or respond to all that you have posted. For example I was not trying to ignore Romans 16:25, but I do need to give this some further thought.

"I also posted: Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,]/B] and the preaching of Jesus Christ acording to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Gal.1:11, 12 "But I certify you, brethren, tht the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, BUT BY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (from his position in heaven).

which you chose to ignor.

Romans 16:26 (KJV): "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

When you study the above, I invite you to read a couple articles by Tracy Plessinger on the "Grace Alive" web-site. They will give you insight as to just where I am coming from, and things that you might consider while you are doing your other studying. The articles can be found at: http://www.gracealive.us/misunderstood.html and http://www.gracealive.us/whosgotgospel.html. There are other great articles by Tracy Plessinger that you might also be interested in.

Looking forward to your response.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laguh Often and Love the Lord!