Matthew

[Called2Grace]

Hi,

I am a new Christian and have just finished Matthew and would like to discuss it with other Christians. I am a little concerned about Chapter 24 - Signs of the End of the Age (NIV) Is this something I should read more about in revelations? I'm concerned that I'm not going to know?

Thanks,

Michelle

 

[Jig]

It just comments on some things to watch for, such as false prophets. No one will know for sure when the end is. Only God the Father knows for sure. I wouldn't worry about it...that is unless your not born again and therefore not saved.

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Susansmum,

Greetings. I hope you enjoy Matthew's record. "The Discourse on the Mount" Matthew chs.5-7 is an important portion of Christ's teaching. An appreciation gradually grows of the beauty, wisdom of these words presented in simple word-pictures. Also the parables are unique in their similar method of teaching, again using word-pictures.

My favourite passage in Matthew is:Matthew 11:25-30 (KJV): "25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Concerning Matthew 24, please note that much of what was prophesied had application in the events before AD 70 and the destruction of the temple by the Romans in AD 70.
Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV): "1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things ? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[StAnselm]

Hey, it's always good when we realise how much we don't know!

But this is a difficult chapter. It might be a good idea to read Revelation as well, but I'm not sure that it's talking about the same thing. (You'll have to get to it eventually, but there's no hurry.)

The NIV heading is "Signs of the End of the Age", but which Age is it talking about?

Jesus seems also to be talking about the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of them temple. These events occurred in 70AD.

As far as I can tell (though others, no doubt, will disagree), Jesus is talking about 70AD up to verse 25 or so (maybe verse 28 or even down to verse 35). Then he switches to talking about his final return. In any case, he is telling us, I think, that there is a close relationship between the two events.

But there's great disagreement concerning this chapter, so don't get too bothered about it.

 

[filosofer]

Howdy, Michelle, and welcome.

I rejoice that you are a new Christian, enjoying the peace that passes all understanding and the certainty of life eternal with God.

I might suggest a different approach. Since you are relatively new to the faith, it might be better to focus on those texts which will strenthen the faith, rather than borderline texts. Yes, the "end times" show up regularly in the NT, but the key to the end times is having a faith that is solid and growing, not one focused ont he wrong things.

Thus, I suggest that you read Ephesians, Mark, 1 John, Philippians, Luke/Acts, 2 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, John's Gospel, Romans, in that order. The passages in Ephesians will be partuclarly important (2:1-10, 4:1-6, 6:10-20); they lay out clearly the faith - and the rest of the writing fills in many gaps.

As you read Mark 13 and Luke 21 (which are parallel to Matthew 24-25) you can read through them and then pass on a detailed study until later. The goal is to gain a clear understanding of who Jesus is (true God and true Man) and what he came to do: to live a perfect life to fulfill the Law, to die in our place because we could not, and then God credits Jesus' righteousness to our account. Unless this firmly grasped the end times passages will confuse and lead you away from certainty - you will be subject to the latest fad in end times, and you will be tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

And finally, the NT position on end times is meant to encourage/comfort the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, especially 18). So, also Revelation is a strong encouragement to worship and evangelism. It is not an accident that Revelation has inspired many great hymns through the centuries, and forms the basis of the historic liturgy.

Blessings on your continued growth in Jesus Christ

2 Peter 3:17-18
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[5stringJeff]

Hi Michelle,

Congrats on making the decision to follow Christ!

I would like to echo filo's comment "to focus on those texts which will strengthen the faith." There will be plenty of time to analyze and understand the end times. But you should be more concerned on understanding the tenets of the faith. When you gain a greater understanding of Christ and your relationship with Him, you'll be better able to digest passages like Matthew 24. In the meantime, rejoice that your name is written in Heaven!

Jeff

 

[Called2Grace]

Thankyou so much for all the responses. I think I was concerned that I would get led astray, so you are all right about needing to strengthen my faith first. I will read the books in the order suggested. I just can't get enough of the Word at the moment, and I love discussing it with other people. It's not like any other book I've read, I could read and re-read pieces of it again and again.

I really love how Matthew ends:

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the ages.

 

[StAnselm]

Yes, that's an excellent recommendation from filosofer.

But it was great that you could read through all of Matthew - keep up the good work!

 

[Dispy]

Hi,

I am a new Christian and have just finished Matthew and would like to discuss it with other Christians. I am a little concerned about Chapter 24 - Signs of the End of the Age (NIV) Is this something I should read more about in revelations? I'm concerned that I'm not going to know?

Thanks,

Michelle

Welcome to membership in The Body of Christ.

It is good that you have a desire to study the Bible, and learn God's will for your life. However, when you start studying the Bible by starting in Matthew, or even the gospels, it is like reading a book and starting in the middle.

To really understand the Mathew, and the gospels, one should have already studied the Old Testament scriptures. They tell about the promises made to Israel, and what Jesus came to fulfill. Paul tells us in Romans 15:8 "Now I say the Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Jews), for the truth of God, to confirm the promise made to the (Jewish) fathers."

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Also, Paul tells us in 2Cor.516 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have know Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." This verse simply means that we are no longer to look to His earthly ministry, which was to Israel, and the fulfillment of the promises made to them. Also, in the gospels Jesus spoke of those things that pertained to the kingdom which he was to establish here upon the earth. It was called "the gospel of the kingdom."

We are now, as members of the Body of Christ, to look for our insturction in righteousness in what was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Members of the Body of Christ have a heavenly home to look forward to, not an earthly kingdom that was promised to Isreal.

I am not saying that we should not study the Old Testament, and the gospels because they are primarily to Israel, because all scripture is for our learning. What I am trying to say, is that when we study the Bible, we must take it in the context in which it is written. All the Bible is [B}FOR US[/B] but not all of the Bible is TO US. So we have to seperate what is for us to know and what is to us to follow.

When one studies the entire Bible in its entirity, one will find that there are two primary doctrines taught in the Bible, LAW and GRACE, The two should never be mixed.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to the children of Israel throug the LAWS of Moses. God used Moses as the messenger of His Laws.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ, to Paul, through the "revelation of the Mystery," and the preaching of "the gospel of the GRACE of God.

Grace and Law are two opposing doctrines and should never be mixed. LAW is - Do what the Law requires, or pay the penalty. GRACE is unmeritted favor. Further, the revelations to Paul should never be read into the Gospels, for the save reason that you wouldn't read "the Laws of Moses" into "the Garden of Eden."

You did seem concerned about Matthew 24 which speaks of the Tribulation. As a member of the Body of Christ, you will not go through the Tribulation, but will be raptured to heaven before it starts. We learn this from 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. That is the "blessed hope" we believers look for.

PLEASE continue you study of the entire Bible. It is an enjoyable study that never ends. The more we study it the more we learn what is God's will in our lives.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings.

"When one studies the entire Bible in its entirity, one will find that there are two primary doctrines taught in the Bible, LAW and GRACE, The two should never be mixed.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to the children of Israel throug the LAWS of Moses. God used Moses as the messenger of His Laws.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ, to Paul, through the "revelation of the Mystery," and the preaching of "the gospel of the GRACE of God.

I am concerned with your views of "grace". Your view seems to ignore the advice of Jesus, and I believe that this instruction is for all his disciples, not Israel only as you claim:
Matthew 5:1-2 (KJV): "1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,"
Matthew 7:21-27 (KJV): "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

Jesus did not leave it to Paul to be the one who first revealed "grace", it was revealed by Jesus at the beginning of his own ministry, and this is stated clearly by the Apostle John, and is part of John's exposition of the life, the words and the example of the Lord Jesus Christ:
John 1:14-17 (KJV): "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dispy]

"When one studies the entire Bible in its entirity, one will find that there are two primary doctrines taught in the Bible, LAW and GRACE, The two should never be mixed.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to the children of Israel throug the LAWS of Moses. God used Moses as the messenger of His Laws.

God gave His instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ, to Paul, through the "revelation of the Mystery," and the preaching of "the gospel of the GRACE of God.

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings.
I am concerned with your views of "grace". Your view seems to ignore the advice of Jesus, and I believe that this instruction is for all his disciples, not Israel only as you claim:
Matthew 5:1-2 (KJV): "1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,"
Matthew 7:21-27 (KJV): "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

In Matthew chapters 5-7 we have "The Sermon on The Mount." Jesus is telling his listeners of thing pertaing to the kingdom. In 5:19 He is telling his listeners "Whosoever therefore shall break on of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus is speaking of is the kingdom that He (Jesus) came to establish here upon the earth.

In 6:19 Jesus instructs his listeners as to how to pray. The first thing that they are to pray for is found in verse 10 - "Thy kingdom come."

You quote 7:24-27, but tell me, do you DO, not try your best those things that are mentioned in 6:25-34? I find it impossible.

On what is your house built, when you compare it to 6:25-34 above?

Jesus did not leave it to Paul to be the one who first revealed "grace", it was revealed by Jesus at the beginning of his own ministry, and this is stated clearly by the Apostle John, and is part of John's exposition of the life, the words and the example of the Lord Jesus Christ:
John 1:14-17 (KJV): "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."Kind regards
Trevor

Since the fall of man, God has ALWAYS demonstrated His grace by providing a way for sinful man to be saved/justified. All sinful man had to do is believe/do what God required at that point of time in human history.

I have no problem with John 1:14-17. It too demonstrates the graceousness of God.

What I am referring to in "the doctrine of GRACE" is what was revealed to Paul for this "dispensation of GRACE."

Salvation has always been by God's grace through FAITH (believing/doing) what God required at that point in time of of human history. Under the Law, It was doing, by FAITH the deed/works that the Law required.

Even during the earthly ministry of Christ, and the time period of the gospels, if one who was a Gentile, wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew, and place themselves under the Laws of Moses.

In this "dispensation of grace," which was kept secret since the world began, our salvation is still by FAITH, but not in doing what the Law required. It is by our putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ. There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. The "middle wall of partition" was torn down when God set the nation aside (temporarily).

There is no doubt in my mind that you don't read "the Laws of Moses" into "the Garden of Eden," because they are future revelation. The same holds true when we read Paul's Epistles. They are future revelation several years after the time period of the Gospels.

When one reads the "doctrine of grace," as revealed to Paul for members of the Body of Christ, into the "doctrine of the Law," as given to Moses for the children of Israel, it only leads to confusion and denominations.

Mixing the doctrines of Law and Grace is what I call a "scrambled egg" doctrine. We have so many churches that each have their own formula as to how to mix them, and they all serve their denominations a little different "omlet." It impossible to unscramble an egg, but only Paul's Epistles can undo a "scrambled egg" doctrine.

THANK YOU Trevor you you response, and I look forward to you reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings. I appreciate your reply. I am not sure that it would be beneficial to get into a full discussion on dispensationalism, and your particular division (Paul) of the various versions. The following is a brief response, and I am conscious that my view is different to the popular view of "grace" and the atonement. I believe that Abraham was justified by works (of faith) when he offered up Isaac. I believe that the popular view of "grace" and the atonement (substitution) ignores the righteousness and holiness of God.

"

You quote 7:24-27, but tell me, do you DO, not try your best those things that are mentioned in 6:25-34? I find it impossible.
On what is your house built, when you compare it to 6:25-34 above?"

Yes, my house is built on the need to hear and do all of Christ's teaching. Are you suggesting that the believer does not have to love his enemies, and trust in God for his daily food and clothing? Jesus shows that his "law" and "commandments" are higher, more searching of man's heart, than what was normally viewed in the Law of Moses eg the 10 commandments, and this standard or foundation is what Jesus expects his disciples to hear and do. Jesus also provides the means to fulfil these commandments, the power of faith and the fulness of the true gospel. The disciples will fail in the fulness of faith and the fruit of faith, both in quantity and quality. But the very process of faith and grace brings this true fruit.

This fruit is not "works of law" based on human will and self boasting, but the product of humility, faith and grace. These believers become more and more like Jesus who revealed these things in their fulness. Trying your best is the wrong formula, and a misunderstanding of faith and what the word "do" represents. Try your best reflects a wrong view, comparable with "works of law". When Abraham offered Isaac it was a work of faith, a lifetime of faith and spiritual growth, and responsiveness to God who had promised concerning the one seed Isaac, not obedience to a law.
Genesis 22:15-17 (KJV): "15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"
Without this quantity and quality of faith, such a sacrifice would have been murder. Abraham believed in the resurrection. There is only one system of salvation, consistent from Eden, faith in the promised seed.

"

I have no problem with John 1:14-17. It too demonstrates the graceousness of God.
What I am referring to in "the doctrine of GRACE" is what was revealed to Paul for this "dispensation of GRACE." "

The doctrine of grace was preached in Eden, and is seen in Abraham offering up Isaac. Jesus and Paul preached the same teaching. Jesus' ministry was bringing grace not law, and his life, death and resurrection is the embodiment of truth and grace. Paul's preaching of Christ and his own example, revealing Christ in him, was also concerning truth and grace.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dispy]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings. I appreciate your reply. I am not sure that it would be beneficial to get into a full discussion on dispensationalism, and your particular division (Paul) of the various versions. The following is a brief response, and I am conscious that my view is different to the popular view of "grace" and the atonement. I believe that Abraham was justified by works (of faith) when he offered up Isaac. I believe that the popular view of "grace" and the atonement (substitution) ignores the righteousness and holiness of God.

Like you, my views are not the most popular either.

Abram (that was Abraham's name prior to it being changed), was also justified by just by believing God. The roots of all believers go back to Abram/Abraham, as I posted some time in the past, and will post again now.

The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham. Read Romans 4:12, 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcsion only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh.

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his
circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH alone, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Now read Galations in that light.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH ALONE which was demonstrated by dong the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by FAITH ALONE by demonstrating that faith by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

"You quote 7:24-27, but tell me, do you DO, not try your best those things that are mentioned in 6:25-34? I find it impossible.
On what is your house built, when you compare it to 6:25-34 above?"

Yes, my house is built on the need to hear and do all of Christ's teaching. Are you suggesting that the believer does not have to love his enemies, and trust in God for his daily food and clothing? Jesus shows that his "law" and "commandments" are higher, more searching of man's heart, than what was normally viewed in the Law of Moses eg the 10 commandments, and this standard or foundation is what Jesus expects his disciples to hear and do. Jesus also provides the means to fulfil these commandments, the power of faith and the fulness of the true gospel. The disciples will fail in the fulness of faith and the fruit of faith, both in quantity and quality. But the very process of faith and grace brings this true fruit.

I HAVE NOT suggested or implied "that the believer does not have to love his enemies, and trust in God for his daily food and clothing." That, I believe is just a "straw dummy" you just threw in there.

What I have said in my previous post that "the Sermon on the Mount," is not for members of the Body of Christ, what is what will be required of Israel in the kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth.

This fruit is not "works of law" based on human will and self boasting, but the product of humility, faith and grace. These believers become more and more like Jesus who revealed these things in their fulness. Trying your best is the wrong formula, and a misunderstanding of faith and what the word "do" represents. Try your best reflects a wrong view, comparable with "works of law". When Abraham offered Isaac it was a work of faith, a lifetime of faith and spiritual growth, and responsiveness to God who had promised concerning the one seed Isaac, not obedience to a law.
Genesis 22:15-17 (KJV): "15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"
Without this quantity and quality of faith, such a sacrifice would have been murder. Abraham believed in the resurrection. There is only one system of salvation, consistent from Eden, faith in the promised seed.

My posting above about "The roots of all beliver" should show you that Abram was justified without work, just as one is saved today, and Abraham was justified after he demonstrated his faith through the work that God required, just as Israel had to do under the Law.

Take notice of what God promised Abram in Genesis 15:5,6 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Abram was justified by FAITH ALONE without works, just as member of the Body of Christ are today. Abram's was told to count the heavenly body. Members of the Body of Christ have a home in the heavenlies, not here upon the earth.

In Genesis 22, we find that Abraham was instructed, by God, to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham demonstrated his FAITH by placing his son upon the alter. Now notice God's promise to Abraham in verse 17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply they seed as the stars of the heaven, AND as the sand which is upon the sea shore..."

Abram's seed (those saved/justified by FAITH ALONE) have a heavenly home to look forward to, and those of Abraham's seed(Israel) (those saved/justified by FAITH PLUS WORKS have an earthly kingdom to look forward to.

"I have no problem with John 1:14-17. It too demonstrates the graceousness of God.
What I am referring to in "the doctrine of GRACE" is what was revealed to Paul for this "dispensation of GRACE."

The doctrine of grace was preached in Eden, and is seen in Abraham offering up Isaac. Jesus and Paul preached the same teaching. Jesus' ministry was bringing grace not law, and his life, death and resurrection is the embodiment of truth and grace. Paul's preaching of Christ and his own example, revealing Christ in him, was also concerning truth and grace.

Kind regards
Trevor

Prior to Paul, I can find no "doctrine of grace" as was given to Paul through the "revelation of the mystery." However, I can find where God has always demonstrated grace since the fall of man.

Jesus and Paul preached entirely different messages. Jesus preached, and commanded His disciples to preach "the gospel of the kingdom"/"the kingdom at hand" (about to be established). Paul preached that message. He preached "the gospel of the grace of God."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings again. I appreciate your reply. You build a case for two classes, based on Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22..

"

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh."
"James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith. "
"Abram was justified by FAITH ALONE without works, just as member of the Body of Christ are today. Abram's was told to count the heavenly body. Members of the Body of Christ have a home in the heavenlies, not here upon the earth."
"Abram's seed (those saved/justified by FAITH ALONE) have a heavenly home to look forward to, and those of Abraham's seed(Israel) (those saved/justified by FAITH PLUS WORKS have an earthly kingdom to look forward to."

Will Abraham receive the earthly or heavenly reward? I believe that Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22 are both the same process of justification, with the same reward, the promise of blessing, the promise of the land, requiring resurrection to the kingdom of God on earth. Concerning Genesis 22, James shows that the two are intimately connected in the one process:
James 2:23 (KJV): "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

You seem to confuse works of the law, and the fruit of faith. Paul argues against works of law throughout his epistles. Rather Paul speaks continually about the fruit of faith, the need to allow the faith to manifest itself in action. He does not preach faith alone.
Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV): "7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You make an artificial distinction between the reward of the faithful. Abraham and his seed were promised the land of Canaan not heaven. Not wanting to open another topic, but your heaven going concepts are based upon the false theory of immortal souls, and heaven and hell going at death. The Bible teaches the soul is mortal, and the hope of the resurrection of the body. The one place he is not told to look in the following is heaven:
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Jesus is this one seed, and the Gentile Galatians and all believers of this promise will receive this inheritance by belief and baptism. Paul does not teach faith alone, but faith, baptism and a walk of faith. Paul in v16 is quoting the above passage.
Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV): "8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."
Galatians 3:16 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): "26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

"

Jesus and Paul preached entirely different messages. Jesus preached, and commanded His disciples to preach "the gospel of the kingdom"/"the kingdom at hand" (about to be established). Paul preached that message. He preached "the gospel of the grace of God." "

Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel. There is one message, one gospel, not two. What a incredible statement "entirely different messages" - what an astounding claim - surely you should question your theory if this is your conclusion. How do you understand Paul's "commandment" / instruction concerning stealing. One of many examples that could be quoted. How is this "entirely different" from Matthew ch.5-7, and how is this "faith alone".
Ephesians 4:28 (KJV): "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

Could you please compare Luke 8:1, Acts 8:5,12 (before Paul), Acts 28:23,31 - is "the kingdom of God" in these the same, different, or "entirely different".
Ephesians 4:4-5 (KJV): "4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
There is only one system of salvation, and only one reward, eternal life on earth in the kingdom. All the faithful, from Eden to the present will be united in this kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Jesus was the living embodiment of the gospel, he preached and revealed the gospel. We can identify with Jesus' gospel by belief and baptism and living the crucified life.
Romans 6:3-8 (KJV): "3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV): "20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Salvation is by faith, and this faith brings forth fruit. This fruit is greater, more beautiful, richer, stronger than works of law. Faith produces humility, love and praise to God.
Galatians 5:22-25 (KJV): "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

As stated previously "Trying your best is the wrong formula". Faith, trust in God transforms the heart and mind and brings forth fruit, and we become like Christ, his children.
Hebrews 2:13 (KJV): "13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dispy]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings again. I appreciate your reply. You build a case for two classes, based on Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22..

"Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh."
"James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith. "
"Abram was justified by FAITH ALONE without works, just as member of the Body of Christ are today. Abram's was told to count the heavenly body. Members of the Body of Christ have a home in the heavenlies, not here upon the earth."
"Abram's seed (those saved/justified by FAITH ALONE) have a heavenly home to look forward to, and those of Abraham's seed(Israel) (those saved/justified by FAITH PLUS WORKS have an earthly kingdom to look forward to."

Will Abraham receive the earthly or heavenly reward?

Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abram) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." IMHO, I believe that he was looking forward to the "New Jerusalem." A heavenly hope/home was never promised to anyone prior to Paul.

I believe that Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22 are both the same process of justification, with the same reward, the promise of blessing, the promise of the land, requiring resurrection to the kingdom of God on earth. Concerning Genesis 22, James shows that the two are intimately connected in the one process:
James 2:23 (KJV): "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

I must agree with you, Genesis 16:6 and Genesis 22 are the same process in that they were both BY FAITH. However, Abram was called "a friend of God" by FAITH ALONE. In Genesis 16 and Abraham, after his name was changed, and became a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, was called "a friend of God" by FAITH + WORKS.

You seem to confuse works of the law, and the fruit of faith. Paul argues against works of law throughout his epistles. Rather Paul speaks continually about the fruit of faith, the need to allow the faith to manifest itself in action. He does not preach faith alone.
Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV): "7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You seem to be mixing the gospel of GRACE that Paul preaches with the Law. Paul's gospel was still a secret/mystery when the Law was in effect. Under the Law, deed/works were required to demonstrate FAITH. Under the dispensation of GRACE, "which was kept secret since the word began." one is saved BY FAITH unto good works. I am not confused in this area.

You mare an artificial distinction between the reward of the faithful. Abraham and his seed were promised the land of Canaan not heaven. Not wanting to open another topic, but your heaven going concepts are based upon the false theory of immortal souls, and heaven and hell going at death. The Bible teaches the soul is mortal, and the hope of the resurrection of the body. The one place he is not told to look in the following is heaven:
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

I will agree that Abraham and his seed, Israel, were promised earthly rewards, and not a heavenly hope/home. In my previous post I was only trying to point out that God used a heavenly body for Abram (a Gentile) to demonstrate his faith, without works, which is where members of the Body of Christ will inherit their heavenly hope/home.

Jesus is this one seed, and the Gentile Galatians and all believers of this promise will receive this inheritance by belief and baptism. Paul does not teach faith alone, but faith, baptism and a walk of faith. Paul in v16 is quoting the above passage.
Galatians 3:8-9 (KJV): "8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."
Galatians 3:16 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): "26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I do agree that Jesus is "the one seed" of Gal.3:16. Lets look at Galatians 3:6 & 7 which preceed 8 and 9 which you quote. "Even as Abrham (Abram) believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, For we therefore that they which are of FAITH are the children of Abraham.

As I posted previously, the roots of all believers go back to Abram/Abraham. We members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, are saved by FAITH ALONE just as Abram was back in Genesis 15 and the children of Israel were saved BY FAITH PLUS WORKS the same as Abraham was in Genesis 22. Christ is "seed as of one" in which our salvation/justification is based.

The baptism mentioned in Gal.3:27 is not referring to the water ceremony. It has to do with our identification with Christ. The "one baptism" of Epehsians 4:5 is the Spirit baptizing the believer into the Body of Christ the moment one puts their FAITH in Christ for theire salvation. It is a "dry-cleaning."

Even though Paul preaches that we are no longer under the Law, he does teach all the precept of the Law, with the exception of the 4th commandment, which is keeping the sabbath day.

"Jesus and Paul preached entirely different messages. Jesus preached, and commanded His disciples to preach "the gospel of the kingdom"/"the kingdom at hand" (about to be established). Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God."

Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel. There is one message, one gospel, not two. What a incredible statement "entirely different messages" - what an astounding claim - surely you should question your theory if this is your conclusion. How do you understand Paul's "commandment" / instruction concerning stealing. One of many examples that could be quoted. How is this "entirely different" from Matthew ch.5-7, and how is this "faith alone".[/b]
Ephesians 4:28 (KJV): "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

As I said above, Paul never preached one should keep the Law, but he did preach all the precepts of the Law with the exception of the 4th commandment.

Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ acording to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Gal.1:11, 12 "But I certify you, brethren, tht the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, BUT BY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (from his position in heaven).

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to your-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye man understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF ME..."

Matthew 23:1 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Say The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses" (the Lawgiver's) seat.
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE AND DO..."

Don't believe that Paul ever preached anything like that. Can't find where Paul ever preached a kingdom on earth for members of the Body of Christ either.

Could you please compare Luke 8:1, Acts 8:5,12 (before Paul), Acts 28:23,31 - is "the kingdom of God" in these the same, different, or "entirely different".

First of all, let us see what "the kingdom of God" consists of. All of God's creation is His kingdom. That includes the things in the heavens, on the earth and under the earth. So the phrase "the kingdom of God" could include all of them or just one area. Usage will determing what is meant. You will find that there are several places in the gospels where "the kingdom of God" and "the kingdom of heaven" are enterchangable.

Jesus, while upon the earth, preached about the kingdom which will be established on earth. Therefore, in Luke 8:1 He is refering to that portion of God's kingdom. I don't find "the kingdom of God" in 8:5, but in 8:12, the kingdom that is to be established here upon the earth is what that verse is saying.

In Acts 28:23, If Paul was speaking about "the kingdom of God" "out of the Law of Moses and out of the prophets," then he is speaking about the promised earthly kingdom. In verse 31 Paul could have been preaching the kingdom that is in heaven and the promised kingdom. He also could have been preaching the kingdom under the eart where all unbelievers go.

To be continued:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

Ephesians 4:4-5 (KJV): "4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
There is only one system of salvation, and only one reward, eternal life on earth in the kingdom. All the faithful, from Eden to the present will be united in this kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Paul is speaking to believer in this dispensation of grace. (The dispensation of the Law has been interrupted by the setting aside of the nation of Israel.} Today, there is only one way in which a person can be saved today. I cannot find anywhere in Paul's Epistles where he promises the believer a place in the kingdom that is to be established here upon the earth.

2Cor.5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVEN."

Phil.3:20 For our conversation (citizenship-NIV) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ."

2Cor.5:20 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us..."
As a member of the Body of Christ my citizenship is already in heaven, therefore, during my stay here on earth, I am an ambassador for Christ. As you know, an ambassadore is one that a representative of his government in a foreign land.

Jesus was the living embodiment of the gospel, he preached and revealed the gospel. We can identify with Jesus' gospel by belief and baptism and living the crucified life.

Jesus came to confirm the promises madea to the fathers (Jewish fathers) (Romans 15:8)

I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal (Matthew 15:24)

Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and to the cities of the Samaritans enter ye not, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt.10:5,6).

Jesus never preached that our salvation would be through His shed blood on the Cross. The purpose of the Cross was not made know until we come to Pauls Epistles (1Cor2:7, 8)

Romans 6:3-8 (KJV): "3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV): "20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

I will respond to the above from the book BAPTISM AND THE BIBLE by Cornelius R. Stam.

THE ORIGIN OF THE 'BURIAL' THEORY'

Clearly the teaching of baptism as a burial in water has sprung from the gratuitous assumption that the bord "baptismos" always, or most always, refers to water baptism, while in fqact it basically refers to complete identification.

We quote the two passages from whence this miscomceiption has arisen, so that we may consider them in light of the Scriptures as a whole:

"Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death; that like as Chris was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom..6:4)

"Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" (Col. 2:12).

It should be noted that both of these verses state that the believers are "buried with Christ, not like Christ. This in itself should convince us that these passages have nothing do do with water. In Gal. 2:20 we read that we have been "crucified with Christ, and it is clear that this was not accomplished by submission to any religious ceremony. Just as the believer has been crucified with Christ' (Gal. 2:20) by simple faith, so also he has been buried-raised-with Christ, "Through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead" (See Col. 2:12 again) This cannot refer to water baptism, for if we must be physically buried to be "buried with Christ," must we not also be physically crucified to be "crucified with Christ"?

Further, Ver.3 of the Romans passages stated that we were "baptized into Jesus Christ"-again, not like Christ, but into Christ, to become one with Him. This should bring to mind the truth of 1 Cor. 12:13, where we read that "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body." Gal. 3:27 clearly state that this is the thought were our baptism into Christ is concerned.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Returning to Rom. 6:3,4, we must ask: How are we baptized into Christ? The Apostle gives us a aclear answer, couched in the form of a reproof that might well apply more appropriately to the Chruch of our day then to that of his own.

Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?"

We are baptized into Christ, then, by being baptized into His death. This is the great message of Rom. 6.3.

Salvation is by faith, and this faith brings forth fruit. This fruit is greater, more beautiful, richer, stronger than works of law. Faith produces humility, love and praise to God.
Galatians 5:22-25 (KJV): "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

As stated previously "Trying your best is the wrong formula". Faith, trust in God transforms the heart and mind and brings forth fruit, and we become like Christ, his children.
Hebrews 2:13 (KJV): "13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me."

Kind regards
Trevor

I'm in full agreement with you that Salvation is by faith, and it shoul bring forth good works. However, sadly it doesn't always to that. 1Corinthians is a good example that those believer lacked the Christian walk and works.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings again. I appreciate your reply.

"

Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abram) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." IMHO, I believe that he was looking forward to the "New Jerusalem." A heavenly hope/home was never promised to anyone prior to Paul."

Your quotation of Hebrews 11:10 is a good definition of Abraham's heavenly hope:
Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV): "8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."
Hebrews 11:16 (KJV): "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
The promise of the land is the heavenly hope of Abraham, the OT faithful, Paul, the Galatians and all the Gentile believers Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:16, 27-29.

"

We members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, are saved by FAITH ALONE just as Abram was back in Genesis 15 and the children of Israel were saved BY FAITH PLUS WORKS the same as Abraham was in Genesis 22. "

There is a difference between works of law and works or fruit of faith. Genesis 22 is works or fruit of faith, and all believers including those that heard Paul are saved by faith and works or fruit of faith.

"

The baptism mentioned in Gal.3:27 is not referring to the water ceremony."

Paul taught and practised water baptism. Water baptism is a work or a fruit of faith.
1 Peter 3:21 (KJV): "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Concerning the mystery that was revealed to Paul, and your part quotation of Ephesians 3, it concerns the opening of the gospel directly to the Gentiles. This was also revealed to the other Apostles, especially to Peter who preached to and baptised Cornelius.
Ephesians 3:5-7 (KJV): "5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."
Paul was appointed by Jesus as the Apostle or minister to the Gentiles. The Gentiles become fellowheirs with the Jews, receiving the promises, including the land promise to Abraham.

The Gentiles now also receive the covenants of promise:
Ephesians 2:12-13 (KJV): "12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

"

Matthew 23:1 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Say The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses" (the Lawgiver's) seat.
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE AND DO..."
Don't believe that Paul ever preached anything like that. ."

The Jewish believers were still under the Law until Christ removed it in his crucifixion Galatians 4:1-7. Even after this, the Jewish believers were still under the Roman and Jewish civil authority, just as we are not allowed to break the speeding laws on our roads. Paul instructed both Jews and Gentiles to obey civil authorities, "the Lawgivers".

"

In Acts 28:23, If Paul was speaking about "the kingdom of God" "out of the Law of Moses and out of the prophets," then he is speaking about the promised earthly kingdom. In verse 31 Paul could have been preaching the kingdom that is in heaven and the promised kingdom."

This shows how thin is the logic behind the theory. Paul taught the same message of the kingdom of God to both Jew and Gentile, and they have the same reward Galatians 3:16,26-29.

"

I cannot find anywhere in Paul's Epistles where he promises the believer a place in the kingdom that is to be established here upon the earth.
2Cor.5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVEN."
Phil.3:20 For our conversation (citizenship-NIV) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ." "

Read the whole context of 2 Corinthians 5 and it is evident he is talking about the present body and present circumstances compared with the future body. In this figurative language, Christ will bring our new house to replace our present tabernacle or body from heaven when he returns. In reality, those who are alive, their bodies will be changed from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. He is not talking about an immortal soul and heaven going.
2 Corinthians 5:4 (KJV): "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

The context of Philippians 3:20 speaks of those who lived in conformity with this present world, who "mind earthly things". The believer should mind heavenly things. They look for the return of Christ, to change their bodies. Again, no mention of heaven going at death or at the return of Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV): "20 For our conversation (or citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

"

Jesus never preached that our salvation would be through His shed blood on the Cross. The purpose of the Cross was not made know until we come to Pauls Epistles (1Cor2:7, 8) "

Matthew 26:26-28 (KJV): "26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
John 1:29 (KJV): "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
John 12:24 (KJV): "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
John 12:32-33 (KJV): "32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."
John 15:13 (KJV): "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Acts 3:18 (KJV): "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV): "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
1 Peter 2:24 (KJV): "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Peter did not receive his instruction and Apostleship from Paul. Christ opened up the OT Scriptures to Peter
Luke 24:44-47 (KJV): "44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
John 1:17 (KJV): "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Concerning your quote from "BAPTISM AND THE BIBLE by Cornelius R. Stam", his article uses Galatians 2:20 in such a way that it does not appreciate that Paul was crucified with Christ both in belief and action every day, and he revealed this to the Galatians in his preaching and example.
Galatians 3:1 (KJV): "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"
Luke 9:23-24 (KJV): "23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

The following indicates that Paul and his companions did baptise.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17 (KJV): "13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

And the following indicates that baptism involved water.
Acts 8:35-39 (KJV): "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."
John 3:23 (KJV): "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

Christ, the Apostles, and Paul and Philip practised water baptism by immersion. This teaches identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This believer's baptism is not a "work of law", but a work or fruit of faith. Salvation is by faith and the fruit of faith as revealed in Abraham in Genesis 22.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dispy]

God morning Trevor. I have been enjoying our ex hange.

"Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abram) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." IMHO, I believe that he was looking forward to the "New Jerusalem." A heavenly hope/home was never promised to anyone prior to Paul."

Your quotation of Hebrews 11:10 is a good definition of Abraham's heavenly hope:
Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV): "8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."
Hebrews 11:16 (KJV): "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
The promise of the land is the heavenly hope of Abraham, the OT faithful, Paul, the Galatians and all the Gentile believers Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:16, 27-29.

The city that Abraham was looking for can be found in Revelation 21:10 "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great ahd hight mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, decending out of heaven from God." Looks like a city that will be here upon the earth.

"We members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, are saved by FAITH ALONE just as Abram was back in Genesis 15 and the children of Israel were saved BY FAITH PLUS WORKS the same as Abraham was in Genesis 22. "

There is a difference between works of law and works or fruit of faith. Genesis 22 is works or fruit of faith, and all believers including those that heard Paul are saved by faith and works or fruit of faith.

I cannot find in my Bible where Paul says that are saved by "faith and works or fruit of faith." Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that no of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of Wroks, lest any man should boast. Fore we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we shoul walk in them.

Christ did all that was necessary through His death, burial, and resurrection, for our salvation. How can we add to it? We will be rewarded according to our works (1Cor.3:8-15).

"The baptism mentioned in Gal.3:27 is not referring to the water ceremony."

Paul taught and practised water baptism. Water baptism is a work or a fruit of faith.
1 Peter 3:21 (KJV): "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

WHY are you using Peter to show that Paul taught water baptism. Yes Paul did baptize some in his early ministry, prior to his receiving the full revelation of the mystery. You cannot show me where he baptized AFTER he received the full knowledge of the mystery.

Peter is not writing to members of the Body of Christ, but to Jewish believer that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" (which was under the Law), and were scattered by the presecution of the Jewish believers. The same ones that Jamaes, Cephas (Peter), and John agree with Paul that he should go to the heathen (Gentiles) and they to the circumcision (Jews) in Galatians 2:9.

You cannot show me one verse of Scripture were Paul even required one to be baptized, let alone taught it. Could Peter have preached, as Paul did in 1Cor.1:14-17?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius:
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in my own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE but to preach the gospel:... LEST THE CROSS BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT."

Concerning the mystery that was revealed to Paul, and your part quotation of Ephesians 3, it concerns the opening of the gospel directly to the Gentiles. This was also revealed to the other Apostles, especially to Peter who preached to and baptised Cornelius.
Ephesians 3:5-7 (KJV): "5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."
Paul was appointed by Jesus as the Apostle or minister to the Gentiles. The Gentiles become fellowheirs with the Jews, receiving the promises, including the land promise to Abraham.

I also posted: Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,]/B] and the preaching of Jesus Christ acording to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Gal.1:11, 12 "But I certify you, brethren, tht the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, BUT BY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (from his position in heaven).

which you chose to ignor.

Are you saying that Pau is a Liar In Romans 16:25? Remember, God raised up Saul/Paul AFTER Jesus returned to heaven. How could Paul say "which was kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN' if it was preached by others before him?

Paul is saying in Gal.1:11, 13 that what he preached was from Jesus Christ from His heavenly position. Paul was more educated in the OT Scriptures then any of the 12 disciples. He studied under the leading scholars of his day. So why would God/Jesus have to reveal the message that he preached? Couldn't he have gone according to his education of the Scriptures? Also, Jesus, prior to his returning to heaven opened up the understanding to all the Scriptures (OT) to His disciples prior to returning to heaven. Then WHY would Paul say in Gal. 1:2 "And I went up by revelation and communicated unto them THAT GOSPEL that I preached..." - indication it was different from what they were preaching. Also verse 6 and 7 says "But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whosoever they were, ...who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me; But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcism was committed unto me as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Doesn't the above tell you that Paul was preaching something other then what the 12 were? Paul was "the new kid on the block" so to sepak. The 12 spent 3 years with the Master; and you are trying to tell me they preaced the same message? If they were preaching the same message, then there would have been no need for the conference.

The Gentiles now also receive the covenants of promise:
Ephesians 2:12-13 (KJV): "12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

To respond to this, I am going to copy from the book A Commentary Of EPHESIANS Based Upon The Greek New Testamentd by Dr. Ernest R. Campbell.

In this article are several words that are written in the Greek language. I have deleted those words, and indicated that by ().

12. "that you were at that time without Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world."
Referring back to the time when they were uncircumcised Gentiles in the flesh, Paul says, "Υου were at that time without Christ." First, the Greek adverb translated "without" () means apart from and separated from Christ. The name "Christ” () is used in this context with a twofold significance: (1) these Gentiles were without the benefit of Christ's redeeming Blood, and (2) they were without the privilege of being members of His Body. The terrible plight of the Christless Gentiles is lucidly described in Romans 1:18-31.

Second, prior to being saved these Gentiles had been "alienated from the commonwealth of Israel." The Greek participle translated "having been alienated" () is in the perfect tense and passive voice. This means that from a given point of time on God had alienated, estranged, and shut them out of the commonwealth of Israel. The Greek noun rendered "commonwealth" () means that they were alienated from being a citizen, the right to be a citizen, or from citizenship in Israel. God sovereignly chose Abraham as the progenitor of Israel, His special people, and in so doing left the Gentiles outside as aliens (Gen. 12:1-3).

Third, before these Gentiles came to know Christ they were "strangers from the covenants of the promise." The Greek noun for "strangers" speaks of those who are not acquainted with the covenants. The Greek word for "covenants" () is in the plural, which implies that God made several covenants, arrangements, dispositions, and wills with Israel (Gen. 15:18; Εx. 19:5; Num. 25:13). Paul says that they were strangers of the covenants "of the promise." As already noted, the noun translated "covenants" is in the plural, but the word rendered "promise" () is in the singular, the genitive case, and has the article preceding it, and refers to a specific single promise which God made to Israel. This promise probably refers to the fact that God was going to send a Saviour to redeem the fallen Adamic race (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 53:2-6). The covenants made with Israel were sub-parts involved in the fulfillment of this promise. Since God sovereignly chose Israel as the people to whom He gave covenants in conjunction with the fulfillment of His redemptive promise, the Gentiles were strangers and unfamiliar with the covenants related to the promise (Rom. 9:4; 11:26-27; Heb. 9:15-16).

Fourth, we note that before these Gentiles became believers their condition was that of "having no hope." The Greek word for "hope" () means that they had nothing to look forward to, nothing to anticipate and expect in the future but death and subsequent judgment (Heb. 9:27; 10:26-27). The Greek participle rendered "having" is in the present tense and active voice which means that they were a people continuously void of hope.[/i ] In First Thessalonians 4:13, Paul speaks of those who have died in the Lord, who await resurrection, in contrast to the grief suffered by "the rest who have no hope."

Fifth, Paul affirms that in past time these Gentiles were "without God in the world." The Greek word translated "without God" () is derived from ("") and ("") and literally means that they were a no- God, void-of-God people. This word, transliterated into English, depicts them as atheists. Observe, the sphere in which they are a no God people is "in the world" (). This is the sphere in which Adam and Eve rebelled against God, this is the sphere in which Satan has been given considerable authority (Luke 4:5-6; 2 Cor. 4:4; 1 John 5:19), and this is the sphere out of which God has chosen His elect (Acts 15:14; John 15:19; Ι Cor. 1:27-28). Other spheres which all atheists will occupy are a place of wrath (Rom. 2:5; Eph. 5:16) and the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10, 14).

13. "but now in Christ Jesus you, those once being far off, have been made near by the blood of Christ."

Paul frequently uses the adverb "now" () to express contrast between the way it was and the way it now is. Formerly, the Gentiles were far off from the blessings God had extended to His covenant people Israel, but now that they are believers they occupy a near position. The big thing that altered their position was their relation to Christ. Previously they were "without Christ" (), but now they are "in Christ Jesus" (). The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is in the locative case in the Greek, which means that their spiritual position was now in the sphere, Ιοcation, and centered in Christ. Paul uses this phrase to express an indissoluble identity with Christ and Ηis blessings (1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 3:28; Col. 1:4).

In the previous verse Paul used five different phrases to describe how the Gentiles were deprived of the blessings which had been given to Israel. In this verse he adds a sixth description, a summary of the above, namely, that their condition was "once being far off." The present participle translated "being" () means that at one time their state of existence was "far off" (), far away, distant, and remote from both God and His covenant people Israel. In verse 17, Paul also uses this same word, as he refers to the gap between the Gentiles and God (cf. Acts 17:27).

Reminding them of their past estranged and far off position, Paul says, "Υου . . . have been made near by the blood of Christ." The Greek verb rendered "have been made" () is in the aorist tense and passive voice, and means that at a given pοint in past time they had been wrought upon by a person outside of themselves, namely, God the Holy Spirit, to make, place, and put them in a near position. The word translated "near" () means a close and adjacent relation to God. This verse certainly emphasizes the fact that God the Holy Spirit was the Prime Mover in closing the gap between the Gentiles and God.

That which had separated the Gentiles from God was their sin (νν. 1- 3). God being just and righteous could not maintain His justice and simultaneously justify sinners apart from the sin being paid for (Rom. 3:23-26). This is the consistent message of the sacrificial system of the Old Testament - without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Heb. 9:22). As a result of the substitutionary death of Christ, God was able to bring the Gentiles near.

To be continued.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

[/color] The Jewish believers were still under the Law until Christ removed it in his crucifixion Galatians 4:1-7. Even after this, the Jewish believers were still under the Roman and Jewish civil authority, just as we are not allowed to break the speeding laws on our roads. Paul instructed both Jews and Gentiles to obey civil authorities, "the Lawgivers".

The scribes and Pharisees were the inforcers of the Jewish Law. The Romans couldn't care less if the Jews obeyed the Jewish Chruch laws or not.

"In Acts 28:23, If Paul was speaking about "the kingdom of God" "out of the Law of Moses and out of the prophets," then he is speaking about the promised earthly kingdom. In verse 31 Paul could have been preaching the kingdom that is in heaven and the promised kingdom." [/lQUOTE]

This shows how thin is the logic behind the theory. Paul taught the same message of the kingdom of God to both Jew and Gentile, and they have the same reward Galatians 3:16,26-29.

Paul is speaking to members of the Body of Christ. They consist of both believing "set aside" Jews and Gentiles that make up [/B]THE ONE NEW MAN'[/B] of Ephesians 2:15. The "ONE NEW MAN is not Israel or "spiritual Israel." It is an entirely new creation.

If Israel, as a nation, is still set aside today, and we are in "the times of the Gentiles," What good would it do to be "spritiral Israel?" God is not dealing with Israel today as His favorite nation.

"I cannot find anywhere in Paul's Epistles where he promises the believer a place in the kingdom that is to be established here upon the earth.
2Cor.5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVEN."
Phil.3:20 For our conversation (citizenship-NIV) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Cor.5:20 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us..."
As a member of the Body of Christ my citizenship is already in heaven, therefore, during my stay here on earth, I am an ambassador for Christ. As you know, an ambassador is one that a representative of his government in a foreign land. "

Read the whole context of 2 Corinthians 5 and it is evident he is talking about the present body and present circumstances compared with the future body. In this figurative language, Christ will bring our new house to replace our present tabernacle or body from heaven when he returns. In reality, those who are alive, their bodies will be changed from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. He is not talking about an immortal soul and heaven going.
2 Corinthians 5:4 (KJV): "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

The context of Philippians 3:20 speaks of those who lived in conformity with this present world, who "mind earthly things". The believer should mind heavenly things. They look for the return of Christ, to change their bodies. Again, no mention of heaven going at death or at the return of Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV): "20 For our conversation (or citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

You chose to ignor 2Cor.5:20. Ambassadors do not serve in their homeland. "This World is not My Home," as the song goes. My home is "eternal in the heaven."

2Cor.5:1 say that we will be ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS. Isn't that just what it means? You are trying to tell me that ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS is figurative language? Why would Paul use "figurative" language here? Yes, we are going to be "swallowed up to life" in glorified bodies in heaven.

Those that will inherit the earth will have "resurrected bodies." No where does it say that they will have "glorified bodies."

"Jesus came to confirm the promises madea to the fathers (Jewish fathers) (Romans 15:8)

I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal (Matthew 15:24)

Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and to the cities of the Samaritans enter ye not, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt.10:5,6).

Jesus never preached that our salvation would be through His shed blood on the Cross. The purpose of the Cross was not made know until we come to Pauls Epistles (1Cor2:7, 8)."

Matthew 26:26-28 (KJV): "26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
John 1:29 (KJV): "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
John 12:24 (KJV): "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
John 12:32-33 (KJV): "32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."
John 15:13 (KJV): "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Acts 3:18 (KJV): "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV): "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
1 Peter 2:24 (KJV): "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Peter, in 1Peter 2:24 is speaking AFTER the purpose of the cross is known.

None of the other verses you posted show the purpose of the cross. We only know from hindsight that FAITH in the cross work of Christ is what paid for all the sins of the world. Peter in Acts 3:19 is still preaching that putting Jesus on the Cross was something to be repented of.

Peter did not receive his instruction and Apostleship from Paul. Christ opened up the OT Scriptures to Peter
Luke 24:44-47 (KJV): "44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
John 1:17 (KJV): "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

It is true that Peter did not receive his instruction and Apostleship from Paul. Never said it or implied it. However, Paul received his Apostleship directly from God/Jesus, and was given a message that s kept secret since the world began." One can search the OT Scriptures and the Gospels and one cannot find "the Body of Chrsit," "the preaching of Cross, according to the revelation of the mystery, the gospel of the grace of God.

Yes, Jesus did open up the understanding of the OT Scriptures, but it was after He was crucified, and before His returning to heaven. Even at that time the purpose of the Cross was still unknow (1Cor.2:7, 8), until it was revealed to Paul.

Concerning your quote from "BAPTISM AND THE BIBLE by Cornelius R. Stam", his article uses Galatians 2:20 in such a way that it does not appreciate that Paul was crucified with Christ both in belief and action every day, and he revealed this to the Galatians in his preaching and example.
Galatians 3:1 (KJV): "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"

The context of Gal. 3:1-5 is about obtaining the Spirit by faith, and not by Law-works. Gal.2:20 tells me that by being crucified with Christ, my sins are all paid for and Christ is within me. I am "IN CHRIST," and His Spirit lives in me.

Luke 9:23-24 (KJV): "23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

Jesus is not speaking to members of the Body of Christ in Luke. Jesus, in His earthly ministery, was to the Jews only (Matt.15:24) and spoke of those things pretaing to His kingdom here upon the earth.

[QUOTEThe following indicates that Paul and his companions did baptise.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17 (KJV): "13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

I am not denying that Paul did baptize in his early ministry, PRIOR to his receiving the full knowledge of the mystery. However, you cannot show me where Paul ever required one to be baptized. Could Peter have preached what Paul preached in you above texts?

And the following indicates that baptism involved water.
Acts 8:35-39 (KJV): "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."
John 3:23 (KJV): "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."[

Christ, the Apostles, and Paul and Philip practised water baptism by immersion. This teaches identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This believer's baptism is not a "work of law", but a work or fruit of faith. Salvation is by faith and the fruit of faith as revealed in Abraham in Genesis 22.

Philip, in Acts 8, was still preaching "the gospel of the kingdom." Water baptism was required at that time. Paul had not yet been saved to usher in this dispensation of grace where water baptism is no longer required. Paul was saved in Acts 9, and it wasn't until Acts 10 that Peter was show that he should no longer call the Gentiles unclean. That shows that the Jews were on on the same level as the "set aside" Gentiles; who were set aside bact at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

John, in John 3 was still water baptizing per his commission. It was a requirement for the remission of sins.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dispy,

Greetings again. I appreciate your reply.

"

I have been enjoying our ex hange."

Yes, I have enjoyed discussing these things, and the need to consider some of the Scriptures. Looking at an earlier reply.

"

We members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, are saved by FAITH ALONE just as Abram was back in Genesis 15 and the children of Israel were saved BY FAITH PLUS WORKS the same as Abraham was in Genesis 22. "

I find the term "works" ambiguous, and much could be written concerning "works" in James 2. I have tried to clarify by introducing another term to distinguish between works of the law and the fruit of faith, and would apply the term fruit of faith to the term "works" in James 2, not works of the law, or even works of law (with some reservation - part of our faith is to obey law). Abraham's response, and what he did in response to the command of Genesis 22:2 is not works of law.:Judging from a law viewpoint, Genesis 22 is murder. If you allow this distinction between works of law and fruits of faith, I think your expressed view of Genesis 22 is not "fruit of faith", because you apply Genesis 22 as equivalent to Israel under the law. They were required to do things that were initially outside of faith, not understanding the reason for the enactment, in obedience to the Law. But I accept faith alone as the basis of initial saving faith, when God justifies the believer, eg Genesis 15:6. After this, faith must grow, develop, and manifest itself in fruits of faith. We need to walk by faith. I do not believe in OSAS. Without growth and faithfulness we will be rejected. Paul before his conversion was a champion of works of the law Philippians 3:4-6.

Consistent with you view of faith alone, and dispensation of grace, you seem forced to reject the practise of water baptism for those who heard Paul's preaching. Again from an earlier reply

"

The baptism mentioned in Gal.3:27 is not referring to the water ceremony."

And from your latest reply

"

Yes Paul did baptize some in his early ministry, prior to his receiving the full revelation of the mystery. You cannot show me where he baptized AFTER he received the full knowledge of the mystery."

When did Paul receive the full knowledge of the mystery? after his 2nd Missionary Journey? Paul baptised some at Corinth, and most probably his travelling companions baptised some others. And as he preached to the Galatians before this, they must have also submitted to water baptism.

I have not had time to consider or respond to all that you have posted. For example I was not trying to ignore Romans 16:25, but I do need to give this some further thought.

"

I also posted: Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,]/B] and the preaching of Jesus Christ acording to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Gal.1:11, 12 "But I certify you, brethren, tht the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, BUT BY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (from his position in heaven).

which you chose to ignor.

Before I have a thorough look at these, if the "my gospel" of Paul is a new revelation of the gospel of grace, and if this is "faith only", then how do you understand "obedience" in the next verse?
Romans 16:26 (KJV): "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Kind regards
Trevor