Matthew 7:21 question

[Soyeong]

The act of obedience which causes us to receive the Holy Spirit is choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

In regards to Romans 3:31, we uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a gift. (Romans 4:5-6) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

The point of the paragraph that you responding to was that the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to God's law, which you did not address.

In Acts 5:32, it could have said that the Spirit has been given to those who believe in Him or believe the Gospel, but it did not. In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so in any case, obeying it is the way to believe the Gospel.

In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued God's law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to earn their own rather than by pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5:10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. So Romans 10:16 speak against those who do not obey the Gospel is again directly connected to not obeying God's law.

In regard to Romans 3:31, we uphold God's law by obeying it through faith, and we can't uphold it by not obeying it. Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus fulfilled all of the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, but rather it says that that God sent His Son in His own likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). Furthermore, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so it is not speaking about Christ obeying the law on our behalf. To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who takes actions that express that character trait, so the gift of God's righteousness is the gift of becoming someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His law.

In regards to Romans 2:6-7, if one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, which seems to be what you are teaching. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether or not our heart was saved. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Good works can be done for any number of reasons other than for the goal of earning our salvation as a wage, especially because that was never the purpose for which God commanded His people to do them, which is why there are many verses that speak against that incorrect understanding of the goal of the law. I can cite many verses that show that obedience to God's law is required for eternal life/justification/salvation and many verses that speak against earning them as a wage, so there must be reasons that they require us to choose to be doers of the law other than for the goal of earning them as a wage, such as faith (Romans 3:31).

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by living in obedience to it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, and is not disconnected in time. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is not the result of having done those works and doing those works is not the result of having been saved, but rather it, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so it does not separate in time the way to become saved from the way that those who have been saved conduct their lives. If doing good works is a description of those to whom God does render eternal life, then doing good works is a requirement for eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works, so it is not that our works are added in addition to our faith, but rather, they are what our faith looks like.

What Paul said in Romans 2:6-11 doesn't change the truth of what he said in Romans 2:13 which confirms what I said.

Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, but you don't seem to think that this is true for anyone.

It sounds to me like you are mixing the old covenant of law for the Jews with the gospel of grace for the body of Christ and adding your version of justification by the law/imperfect obedience to salvation through faith. Acts 7:51-53 is directed at Israel and they did not keep the law. How can people be doers of the law when they have not kept it? Nobody (except Jesus Christ) has flawlessly obeyed the law. The Israelites were continuously stumbling over the law. (Acts 15:1-5; 24-28; Romans 10:1-4) Salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only say of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His ways that he might know Him and Israel too, so again the goal of the law eternal life (John 17:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as Abraham and everyone else, so you are trying to separate the Gospel of Grace from the body of Christ by adding your own perfect obedience requirement. In Romans 2:25-29, there were Gentiles who were keeping God's law, which would also be the case for Jews who had circumcised hearts. While it is true that none of us have kept the law flawlessly, that does not mean that none of us have kept it, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, and Revelation 14:12. While the Bible says against obeying the law with an incorrect goal should not be mistaken as speaking against obeying it with a correct goal. Both Christ's and Paul's Gospel called for obedience in word and deed, so you are saying that they taught a false Gospel.

What Paul said is not in line with your eisegesis.

The passage says nothing about perfect obedience, so that is entirely something that you have tried to insert into the passage rather than something that you have derived from it.

Romans 2:14 - for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them). This does not mean that the Gentiles perfectly obeyed the entire law.

Indeed, Romans 2:14 saying that Gentiles will be nature be doers of the law does not mean that they kept the entire law perfectly, but it does mean that they were doers of the law in accordance with Romans 2:13.

Being self righteous and hypocritical is certainly implied. Romans 2:17 - Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

The passage describes hypocrisy of not doing what they taught, but it says nothing about them being self-righteous.

Only Jesus Christ had perfect obedience, so NOBODY will be justified by the law. In regards to the law, perfect obedience is the standard so what point am I missing? Were the Israelites not being hypocrites? Were they not seeking justification by the law? In Romans 10:1, we read - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Nobody earned their justification by obeying the law because it was never given as a means of doing that. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need to have perfect obedience. What you are missing is a citation from Scripture that says that perfect obedience is the standard that God requires. The Bible is full of people who did not have perfect obedience.

James 2:10 - "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" is clear to me and the body of Christ is not under the law, but is under grace. (Romans 6:14) You seem to be hung up on the law. Are you Jewish?

In James 2:11, it says that if we commit adultery, but do murder, then we have become a transgressor of the law, so his point is that any transgression of the law makes us a transgressor of the law from which we need to repent. At no point did he say anything along the lines that they have show partiality, so now they have failed to earn their justification, and don't need to bother trying to keep the law. In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, Paul said that being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law ( 1 John 3:4), so we are still under it. Yes, I am Jewish by birth, but I grew up as a Baptist, so that makes not difference to my theology.

Is God's standard not 100% obedience? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23) Salvation does not come through perfect obedience because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It says that all have sinned, but doesn't say anything about needing to earn our righteousness by having perfect obedience. The law was never given as a means of earning our salvation as a wage, which is why there are many verses that speak against that misunderstanding of the goal of the law, but that does not mean that we are not required to obey it for the goal for which it was given. Again, according to Romans 6:19-23, obedience to God's law is a requirement for the gift of eternal life.

Which law are you talking about? You are trying to add "imperfect obedience" to the law to salvation through faith. So how much imperfect obedience does it take? You are teaching salvation by faith + works which is a "different" gospel.

The law that God has commanded. None of those verses said anything about perfect obedience, so I am not adding imperfect obedience to them. Out of everyone who will be saved through faith, not one of them will have perfect obedience, so it is not a requirement for salvation, though there are many verses where choosing to obey through faith is a requirement for salvation. Again, our obedience is not about earning our salvation as a wage, so our salvation is not a matter of having a certain amount of obedience. I am teach the same Gospel that Jesus and Paul taught.

Jesus was addressing the scribes and Pharisees here and was talking about the law of Moses. Are you under the law of Moses? Are you an Israelite who is under the old covenant of law?

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law, and the whole world is accountable to Him. While we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). For example, God's righteousness is eternal, therefore all of God's laws for how to act in accordance with His righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became sinful when it was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains a sin have it has been made obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being made or becoming obsolete that will ever change whether or not it is a sin to commit adultery. As part of the New Covenant, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to His law are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10).

 

[Danthemailman]

The point of the paragraph that you responding to was that the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to God's law, which you did not address.

Who did the works of the law originate from? Moses alone or God? So what is God's law according to you?

In Acts 5:32, it could have said that the Spirit has been given to those who believe in Him or believe the Gospel, but it did not. In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so in any case, obeying it is the way to believe the Gospel.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel. In Mark 1:15, Jesus said repent and believe in the gospel.

In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued God's law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to earn their own rather than by pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5:10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. So Romans 10:16 speak against those who do not obey the Gospel is again directly connected to not obeying God's law.

You are confused. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (have already come to know Him/already saved/ demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commands. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, watch over, keep intact) His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

Once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Nothing there about obeying God's law. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

In regard to Romans 3:31, we uphold God's law by obeying it through faith, and we can't uphold it by not obeying it.

Well only Jesus has flawlessly obeyed God's law. So we uphold it through imperfect obedience? My original point still stands.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus fulfilled all of the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, but rather it says that that God sent His Son in His own likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). Furthermore, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so it is not speaking about Christ obeying the law on our behalf. To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who takes actions that express that character trait, so the gift of God's righteousness is the gift of becoming someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His law.

God sent His Son in His own likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us proves my point. Walking not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit is 'descriptive' of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I really don't have time to respond to the rest of your long winded post. I have to get ready for work. This is the busy season at the Post Office. These posts are getting too long and we need to just cut to the chase. Salvation is by grace through faith, not works, (works in general) and it's NOT by grace plus law, faith plus works as you seem to imply.

 

[Soyeong]

Who did the works of the law originate from? Moses alone or God? So what is God's law according to you?

Works of the law did not originate from either Moses or God, but from man's traditions. God's law straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has commanded.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel. In Mark 1:15, Jesus said repent and believe in the gospel.

In Matthew 4:15, the Gospel that Jesus taught was considered to be a light to the nations. Furthermore, in Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesied that this Gospel would be proclaimed to all nations, and in Matthew 28:16-20, he commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that he had taught them, so while there were instances during Christ's ministry when he did not set his disciples out to the nations, he intended that once he had prepared his disciples that they would bring it to the nations.

You are confused. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (have already come to know Him/already saved/ demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commands. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, watch over, keep intact) His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to intimate and experiential knowledge gained by personal relationship, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and again knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is the goal of the law (John 17:3). In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). This is also confirmed by 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:4-6, and Matthew 7:23, so I don't see how what you said about 1 John 2:3 is contrary to what I've said or shows that I am confused.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said contrasted saying that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, so the Father has straightforwardly made His will known through His word (Psalms 40:8), through He also taught how to believe in the Son through His word. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is the way to trust in him alone. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to obediently put our faith in the law that God has instructed for salvation is to put our faith in God for salvation, not attempted external obedience.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

Jesus said that he never knew them because they were workers of lawlessness, so the goal of the law is to know him, or in other words, to teach us how to have an intimate relationship with him through expressing aspects of his nature, which is eternal life. However, God's law can be obeyed while neglecting to express aspects of His nature, which is the way to know God, and thus missing the whole goal of the law, such as in Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. That was the problem with those in Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 9:30-10:4, and Philippians 3:8. While Paul denied in Romans 4:5-6 that we can earn our righteousness as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there must be a reason that requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn our righteousness as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. So the problem is not that we can't be declared righteous by being a doers of the law, but that in order to be declared righteous we need choose to be doers of the law with the correct goal.

Once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Nothing there about obeying God's law. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

You neglected to address the issue of how Romans 10:16 relates to Romans 10:5-10 referencing Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to the Mosaic Law, you have neglected to address that the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 called for people to obey the Mosaic Law, you have neglected to address that our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Mosaic Law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), and you have neglected to address how Psalms 119:29-30 shows obedience to the Mosaic Law as part of salvation by grace through faith, so your instance that there is nothing there about obeying the Mosaic Law falls flat.

Well only Jesus has flawlessly obeyed God's law. So we uphold it through imperfect obedience? My original point still stands.

In Romans 3:31, it says nothing about needing to flawlessly obey God's law, so your original point is still lacking. Our faith upholds the Mosaic Law whenever we obey it through that faith.

God sent His Son in His own likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us proves my point. Walking not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit is 'descriptive' of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I really don't have time to respond to the rest of your long winded post. I have to get ready for work. This is the busy season at the Post Office. These posts are getting too long and we need to just cut to the chase. Salvation is by grace through faith, not works, (works in general) and it's NOT by grace plus law, faith plus works as you seem to imply.

The righteous requirement of the law being fulfilled in us is contrary to saying that fulfilled it on our behalf. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so those who walk in the Spirit are walking in submission to God Law, which again is contrary to Jesus obeying it on our behalf.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so that is not adding our works in addition to grace as you suggest, but rather training us to do those works is how God is gracious to us. God has given instructions for how to believe in Him, so obeying those instructions is not adding our works to our faith as you suggest, but rather that is the way to have faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so Paul did not diminish the role of doing good works in regard to our salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

Works of the law did not originate from either Moses or God, but from man's traditions. God's law straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has commanded.

In Matthew 4:15, the Gospel that Jesus taught was considered to be a light to the nations. Furthermore, in Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesied that this Gospel would be proclaimed to all nations, and in Matthew 28:16-20, he commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that he had taught them, so while there were instances during Christ's ministry when he did not set his disciples out to the nations, he intended that once he had prepared his disciples that they would bring it to the nations.

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to intimate and experiential knowledge gained by personal relationship, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and again knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is the goal of the law (John 17:3). In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). This is also confirmed by 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:4-6, and Matthew 7:23, so I don't see how what you said about 1 John 2:3 is contrary to what I've said or shows that I am confused.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said contrasted saying that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, so the Father has straightforwardly made His will known through His word (Psalms 40:8), through He also taught how to believe in the Son through His word. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is the way to trust in him alone. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to obediently put our faith in the law that God has instructed for salvation is to put our faith in God for salvation, not attempted external obedience.

Jesus said that he never knew them because they were workers of lawlessness, so the goal of the law is to know him, or in other words, to teach us how to have an intimate relationship with him through expressing aspects of his nature, which is eternal life. However, God's law can be obeyed while neglecting to express aspects of His nature, which is the way to know God, and thus missing the whole goal of the law, such as in Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. That was the problem with those in Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 9:30-10:4, and Philippians 3:8. While Paul denied in Romans 4:5-6 that we can earn our righteousness as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there must be a reason that requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn our righteousness as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. So the problem is not that we can't be declared righteous by being a doers of the law, but that in order to be declared righteous we need choose to be doers of the law with the correct goal.

You neglected to address the issue of how Romans 10:16 relates to Romans 10:5-10 referencing Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to the Mosaic Law, you have neglected to address that the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 called for people to obey the Mosaic Law, you have neglected to address that our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Mosaic Law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), and you have neglected to address how Psalms 119:29-30 shows obedience to the Mosaic Law as part of salvation by grace through faith, so your instance that there is nothing there about obeying the Mosaic Law falls flat.

In Romans 3:31, it says nothing about needing to flawlessly obey God's law, so your original point is still lacking. Our faith upholds the Mosaic Law whenever we obey it through that faith.

The righteous requirement of the law being fulfilled in us is contrary to saying that fulfilled it on our behalf. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so those who walk in the Spirit are walking in submission to God Law, which again is contrary to Jesus obeying it on our behalf.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so that is not adding our works in addition to grace as you suggest, but rather training us to do those works is how God is gracious to us. God has given instructions for how to believe in Him, so obeying those instructions is not adding our works to our faith as you suggest, but rather that is the way to have faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so Paul did not diminish the role of doing good works in regard to our salvation.

I'm sorry, but I've read enough of your word salads to see that you are thoroughly mixed up, especially in regards to the law and to salvation. Sadly, I can also see that your confusion has culminated in a "different" gospel of "works righteousness." Salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) Imperfect obedience to the law saves no one.

Bottom line: The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) and to "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation.

Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; 20:21)

 

[Soyeong]

I'm sorry, but I've read enough of your word salads to see that you are thoroughly mixed up, especially in regards to the law and to salvation. Sadly, I can also see that your confusion has culminated in a "different" gospel of "works righteousness." Salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) Imperfect obedience to the law saves no one.

Bottom line: The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) and to "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation.

Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; 20:21)

Again, our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to God's law.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Likewise, in Acts 2:38, when Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, God's law was how they knew what sin is. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and deed, so you are calling their Gospel message false and are teaching a different Gospel that does not involve repentance. I've not taught "grace plus law" or "faith plus works". Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation, and participating in this training is not adding our works to God's grace. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in everything that Christ accomplished in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Acts 21:20). Christ is God's word made flesh, so you are incorrect to think that obediently trusting in God's word is doing something other than relying on Christ for our salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Likewise, in Acts 2:38, when Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, God's law was how they knew what sin is. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and deed, so you are calling their Gospel message false and are teaching a different Gospel that does not involve repentance. I've not taught "grace plus law" or "faith plus works". Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught.

There is no need for you to resort to slander. I do not reject the gospel message which does involve repentance. In Acts 2:38, Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the gospel message does not leave out repentance and the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Romans 15:18-19, For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

The gospel message RESULTS in bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and deed, yet obedience in word and deed is not how the Gentiles were saved through the Gospel message. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) They were saved by BELIEVING the gospel.

Salvation by "grace plus law" and "faith plus works" is what I hear from you, even though you remain in denial.

You said: obedience to God's law is a requirement for the gift of eternal life.
You said: ..so Paul did not diminish the role of doing good works in regard to our salvation.

In regards to the gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught, you need to understand that there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3) that Paul preached. This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

This may get a little deep so bare with me. "Gospel" simply means "good news." Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) This shows that before the cross, the content of gospel of grace that Paul taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

That was not part of the content of the gospel which the twelve, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ were preaching. Yet, they were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In Matthew 16:15, Jesus Christ asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Now Peter had no clue that Jesus Christ would be crucified, buried and resurrected. He only believed that Jesus was the Messiah at this point. This is obvious when, only moments later, Peter rebukes Jesus Christ for saying he will be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matthew 16:21). In verse 22, "..Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Before his death, Jesus told the twelve that he had to die and that he would rise on the third day. However, it is unquestionable that the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34. hmm... that's strange if the content of the gospel of grace that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom.

This is where you need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

After Jesus' crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant and disheartened at the death of their Messiah and did not even at first believe the testimony of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24)

It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

 

[Guojing]

There is no need for you to resort to slander. I do not reject the gospel message which does involve repentance. In Acts 2:38, Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the gospel message does not leave out repentance and the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Romans 15:18-19, For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

The gospel message RESULTS in bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and deed, yet obedience in word and deed is not how the Gentiles were saved through the Gospel message. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) They were saved by BELIEVING the gospel.

Salvation by "grace plus law" and "faith plus works" is what I hear from you, even though you remain in denial.

You said: obedience to God's law is a requirement for the gift of eternal life.
You said: ..so Paul did not diminish the role of doing good works in regard to our salvation.

In regards to the gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught, you need to understand that there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3) that Paul preached. This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

This may get a little deep so bare with me. "Gospel" simply means "good news." Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) This shows that before the cross, the content of gospel of grace that Paul taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

That was not part of the content of the gospel which the twelve, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ were preaching. Yet, they were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In Matthew 16:15, Jesus Christ asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Now Peter had no clue that Jesus Christ would be crucified, buried and resurrected. He only believed that Jesus was the Messiah at this point. This is obvious when, only moments later, Peter rebukes Jesus Christ for saying he will be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matthew 16:21). In verse 22, "..Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Before his death, Jesus told the twelve that he had to die and that he would rise on the third day. However, it is unquestionable that the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34. hmm... that's strange if the content of the gospel of grace that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom.

This is where you need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

After Jesus' crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant and disheartened at the death of their Messiah and did not even at first believe the testimony of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24)

It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

Wow this is nice to read, do you now consider yourself a classical or acts 2 dispensationalist?

 

[Danthemailman]

Wow this is nice to read, do you now consider yourself a classical or acts 2 dispensationalist?

What are the main differences between the two views?

 

[Guojing]

What are the main differences between the two views?

That means the Body of Christ began at Pentecost, that is why it is called Acts 2 dispensationalist, or classical, they both mean the same.

It is to differentiate it from Mid-Acts, which some people call it hyper but I don't really like that term, or Acts 28, some people call that ultra.

 

[Danthemailman]

That means the Body of Christ began at Pentecost, that is why it is called Acts 2 dispensationalist, or classical, they both mean the same.

It is to differentiate it from Mid-Acts, which some people call it hyper but I don't really like that term, or Acts 28, some people call that ultra.

Sounds like I'm more of an Acts 2 dispensationalist then.

 

[Guojing]

Sounds like I'm more of an Acts 2 dispensationalist then.

Yep, when I read your concluding paragraph, I could see that as well

 

[BBAS 64]

(Mat 7:21) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father in heaven?

(John 6:29) Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

Question: If doing the will of the Father is to believe on Jesus, then why is Jesus telling people, who call Him Lord, to depart? Wouldn't this indicate that they believed in Jesus if they're calling Him Lord? What is the will of the Father in heaven if not faith in the gospel? Is it evangelism? Thoughts?

Good Day,

Context....

Jesus is very clear:
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

He never knew them, Jesus did not invest any effort to establish a "knowing" relationship with them.

He did not do it, he never did nor would he ever, because he chose not to do so.

Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

Knowing God by Packer is a good read on the subject.


In Him,

Bill

 

[Soyeong]

Good Day,

Context....

Jesus is very clear:
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

He never knew them, Jesus did not invest any effort to establish a "knowing" relationship with them.

He did not do it, he never did nor would he ever, because he chose not to do so.

Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

Knowing God by Packer is a good read on the subject.


In Him,

Bill

Hello,

Jesus didn't say that that he didn't know them because he chose not to, but rather the reason he did not know them is because they were workers of lawlessness. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Him and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

 

[BBAS 64]

Hello,

Jesus didn't say that that he didn't know them because he chose not to, but rather the reason he did not know them is because they were workers of lawlessness. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Him and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Good Day, Soyeong

The knowledge of the Father is still dependent on Jesus's choice to reveal ( make Him known) Him.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.


Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

He makes those choices...

In Him,

Bill

 

[Soyeong]

Good Day, Soyeong

The knowledge of the Father is still dependent on Jesus's choice to reveal ( make Him known) Him.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.


Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

He makes those choices...

In Him,

Bill

Good day,

Again, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delight in expressing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to know Him and Christ, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing the Father and the Son is the goal of the law, which is eternal life. Knowledge of the Father is dependent upon the Son because he is the living embodiment of the nature of God expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, and this is the way that he revealed the Father.