Matthew 28:19 - what formula?

[tapero]

I would say that the elect do!!!

God always promises to have a remnant who know the truth. The rest shall be closed to certain facts....that is why Christ taught in Parables....and then plainly to His disciples. I would say that one would need to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be one of the remnant or elect...

So, today...since Christ, there have been some that have the Baptism.

in His service
c

The remnant is the Jews, need to read ot or do word search to grasp. Jesus came to the jews and taught to the Jews, tho any could listen.

Anyone who believes in Christ is baptised at the second of belief into Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells them, they never lose their salvation. All is Christ have the same.

 

[zeke37]

The remnant is the Jews, need to read ot or do word search to grasp. Jesus came to the jews and taught to the Jews, tho any could listen.

Anyone who believes in Christ is baptised at the second of belief into Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells them, they never lose their salvation. All is Christ have the same.

Hello Again...

Instead of arguing.....I will present a simple truth for you to either accept or deny. Choice is yours....



The elect are NOT ALL Jews. Rev7 clearly states that of the 144 000 elect, only 12 000 are Jews....and 12 000 are from Benjamin....

The others are of the scattered tribes....scattered into nations and peoples....the other stick...called Ephraim/Jacob/Israel...(depending on the co-author).



Point is that most of Christianity believes that the elect are Jews....yet Christ teaches to them as Christians....

these elect follow the lamb where ever He goes...




in Prophecy....Jerusalem is the city....Jerusalem.

Judah is in part the people and land that is called Israel today...There are 2 Southern tribes (Judah being one and Benjamin being the other)....

and 10 northern tribes...(Ephraim being the largest)
These 10 northern tribes are referred to in prophecy as Israel.

Both groups and lands were conquered (by God's plan).

First the northern tribes by the Assyrian...and those tribes were scattered....lost so to speak.

Then the southern tribes were taken over by the Babylonian.

Eventually, the southern tribes returned (Cyrus) and at Christ's time there was only Judah (with the small Benjamin at his side. Paul (Saul) was from Benjamin...just the southern tribes returned....

the northern were scattered and the people do not remember their birthright. It is God's plan to join the two sticks together eventually...at Christ's coming....

but for now, as we speak in our day and age, and for the last app. 2500 years...there has been only Judah (and Benjamin)...and for 2000 years there was no Judah or Israel as a nation...until 1948...

and the nation of Israel that is now....is not ALL 12 Tribes of Israel, but only 1 tribe of Judah....


the elect are from ALL 12 tribes....not the ONE tribe of Judah....


and the prophecies of Israel are for you and me.


anyway it is late and I'm off to bed...


Careful who you receive biblical teaching from...if you are not willing to look it up for yourselves....then you'd believe anything thrown at you....

the elect are NOT all Jewish...and of the 12 000 that are, are Messianic.

in His service
c

 

[jmacvols]

Yes, I can prove the truth by the bible, but have told you twice, I am not going thru that trouble as I do not debate with Christians who practice legalism and add to the bible things not there, nor on any matter, I just point out false teachings, misapplications, bad theology, dotrine, etc, as I see them. (Not saying you're a false teacher.)

I don't post for the one holding such, but for those who will read such so that they know is not truth.

The only place I debate is in discussion and debate. I haven't done so for some time but will soon get back into it.

It takes much bible searching and research. Takes hours to write one reply. I never start a topic there, only reply to what's asked.

Thanks,
tapero

Legalism? What do you mean by this? This term is not found in the bible. If by "legalism" you refer to those that do their best to follow God's will, then yes I am a "legalist".

 

[jmacvols]

I would say that the elect do!!!

God always promises to have a remnant who know the truth. The rest shall be closed to certain facts....that is why Christ taught in Parables....and then plainly to His disciples. I would say that one would need to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be one of the remnant or elect...

So, today...since Christ, there have been some that have the Baptism.

in His service
c

I am not familiar with any verse that promises the "elect" the baptism with the Holy Spirit. From Acts 1:1-5 only the apostles were promised this baptism.

When Paul wrote the Ephesian epistle there was "one baptism" in effect, Eph 4:5. So that one baptism in effect today must be water baptism for the following reasons:

Baptism with the Holy SPirit was a prophecy of Joel [Joel 2:28] that God's spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. At Joel's time all mankind was made up of either Jews or non-Jews, so all flesh was made up of Jew and Gentile. Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs twice in the NT, in Acts 2 with the apostles that were Jews and Acts 10 with Cornelius who was a Gentile. Hence Jew and Gentile or all flesh was baptized with the Holy Spirit fulfilling Joel's prophecy making this baptism obsolete. One purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to fulfill the law and prophets, Mt 5:17. So Jesus did fulfill this prophecy of Joel, else He was not the Christ. As proof of this, when the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Peter plainly points out that this was Joel's prophecy beginning to be fulfilled, Acts 2:16ff. When Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Ghost, it reminded Peter of the "beginning" (Pentecost in Acts 2), tying the two evnets together. Thus with the "Gentiles" being baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 10, the Lord fulfilled Joel's prophecy about this baptism making it obsolete. There is no verse that promises this baptism to anyone other than the apostles, Acts 1:1-5. There is no verse that says the baptism will last till the end of time. No verse commands this baptism. No verse says this baptism remits sins/saves. No man can administer this baptism.

On the other hand, the baptism of the great commission [Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47] was commanded to the disciples to perform, hence this baptism had human administators and humans can administer water baptism, not baptism with the Holy Spirit. This baptism was to be taken to the whole world/all creatures. This water baptism would remit sins/save, Acts 2:38. And would last till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20. So this must be the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

 

[zeke37]

Hello!

I am not familiar with any verse that promises the "elect" the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that many verses promise that God gives gifts...and I believe that the elect possess these gifts of God. Sinse God promises always to have an election present to work through....(remnant) they would have had these gifts all through out time since Christ.

From Acts 1:1-5 only the apostles were promised this baptism.

1Cor12:13 would disagree, as would the whole chapter. And (just so you know)I am not an charismatic tongues believer.

When Paul wrote the Ephesian epistle there was "one baptism" in effect, Eph 4:5. So that one baptism in effect today must be water baptism for the following reasons:

Baptism with the Holy SPirit was a prophecy of Joel [Joel 2:28] that God's spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. At Joel's time all mankind was made up of either Jews or non-Jews, so all flesh was made up of Jew and Gentile.

Just as it is now????? That is a rather silly statement friend.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs twice in the NT, in Acts 2 with the apostles that were Jews and Acts 10 with Cornelius who was a Gentile. Hence Jew and Gentile or all flesh was baptized with the Holy Spirit fulfilling Joel's prophecy making this baptism obsolete.

You are incorrect sir...the elect are to witness against the antiChrist in the near future...

the Baptism and Gifts of the Spirit will be in full effect then....at the end of the tribulation...in fact, this is what Joel is alluding to...as well as the examples in Acts.
The elect shall allow God to speak through them as a final witness at the end of the age, right before Messiah returns...

One purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to fulfill the law and prophets, Mt 5:17. So Jesus did fulfill this prophecy of Joel, else He was not the Christ.

There are many prophecies in Joel and many other prophets, which have not YET come true. Your timeline is not that of God. His 2nd Advent is foretold many times and that is still future...so....

As proof of this, when the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Peter plainly points out that this was Joel's prophecy beginning to be fulfilled, Acts 2:16ff.

Again, this is an example of the end time vision that Joel had....which will play out soon enough.

When Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Ghost, it reminded Peter of the "beginning" (Pentecost in Acts 2), tying the two events together. Thus with the "Gentiles" being baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 10, the Lord fulfilled Joel's prophecy about this baptism making it obsolete. There is no verse that promises this baptism to anyone other than the apostles, Acts 1:1-5.

As I earlier stated...(this verse immediately came to mind) 1Cor12:13

There is no verse that says the baptism will last till the end of time.

If you are one of the elect, that has been chosen before the foundations of the very world itself, then God has made you elect for a very good reason. I do agree that the Cloven Tongue of Fire as described in Acts2, as an example of that which is to come in the Tribulation of the Anti-Christ...and to which Joel prophecyed about...(Joel was having a vision of this end time event, not the events in Acts2...Acts2 is the example. God speaking..Himself, through the elect by the power and influence of the Holy Spirit..


in front of the whole world....(TV(IMO))

No verse commands this baptism. No verse says this baptism remits sins/saves. No man can administer this baptism.

Well although you are totally incorrect about the first two verses, I agree with the third sentence. No man can forgive sin...only the Father through the Son, by the Spirit.



On the other hand, the baptism of the great commission [Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47] was commanded to the disciples to perform, hence this baptism had human administators and humans can administer water baptism, not baptism with the Holy Spirit. This baptism was to be taken to the whole world/all creatures. This water baptism would remit sins/save, Acts 2:38. And would last till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20. So this must be the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

I cannot follow your line of thought here, sorry!
Our faith should not be in the one dunking you under the water....it should be in God, the One for the reason we do it....regardless of who administers It. I am in no way saying that because one receives a water baptism, that they are automatically baptized by the Holy Spirit...no....

that is between that person and God....God chooses who He Baptizes....not man....

but do not limit Him, as He will always have the elect...the remnant of the elect as well as the martyrs....those strong enough to even die for their faith...Surely they were baptized in the Holy Spirit! They are those true Christians who are, in reality...sinners no better than the rest (yes ALL of us Christians sin), but do understand what is going on and help further God's plan of Salvation. The Spirit of God MUST be with them to do so...

in His service
c

 

[zspeedyrabit]

Zspeedyrabit was baptized (Church of Christ) in May of 2006 confessing Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. Zspeedyrabit was baptized with the Holy Spirit that day. In approximately November of 2006 Zspeedyrabit began receiving visions (which may or may not be in tongues) from the Holy Spirit. Zspeedyrabit has been posting the "visions that are in tongues from the Holy Spirit" on various discussion forums. Zspeedyrabit has also labeled the visions to be "spiritual stimuli'.

 

[tapero]

Hello Again...

Instead of arguing.....I will present a simple truth for you to either accept or deny. Choice is yours....



The elect are NOT ALL Jews. Rev7 clearly states that of the 144 000 elect, only 12 000 are Jews....and 12 000 are from Benjamin....

The others are of the scattered tribes....scattered into nations and peoples....the other stick...called Ephraim/Jacob/Israel...(depending on the co-author).



Point is that most of Christianity believes that the elect are Jews....yet Christ teaches to them as Christians....

these elect follow the lamb where ever He goes...




in Prophecy....Jerusalem is the city....Jerusalem.

Judah is in part the people and land that is called Israel today...There are 2 Southern tribes (Judah being one and Benjamin being the other)....

and 10 northern tribes...(Ephraim being the largest)
These 10 northern tribes are referred to in prophecy as Israel.

Both groups and lands were conquered (by God's plan).

First the northern tribes by the Assyrian...and those tribes were scattered....lost so to speak.

Then the southern tribes were taken over by the Babylonian.

Eventually, the southern tribes returned (Cyrus) and at Christ's time there was only Judah (with the small Benjamin at his side. Paul (Saul) was from Benjamin...just the southern tribes returned....

the northern were scattered and the people do not remember their birthright. It is God's plan to join the two sticks together eventually...at Christ's coming....

but for now, as we speak in our day and age, and for the last app. 2500 years...there has been only Judah (and Benjamin)...and for 2000 years there was no Judah or Israel as a nation...until 1948...

and the nation of Israel that is now....is not ALL 12 Tribes of Israel, but only 1 tribe of Judah....


the elect are from ALL 12 tribes....not the ONE tribe of Judah....


and the prophecies of Israel are for you and me.


anyway it is late and I'm off to bed...


Careful who you receive biblical teaching from...if you are not willing to look it up for yourselves....then you'd believe anything thrown at you....

the elect are NOT all Jewish...and of the 12 000 that are, are Messianic.

in His service
c

Hi, I need to study more on elect as doing word search popped up more things to look into.

But it is clear the 144,000 in Revelation are Hebrews and without a doubt.

Same exact list as in OT. They are Jews. If God has a remnant such as He does here, believe me, He is able to have a remnant of the Jews which all below are.

Not sure why this is important though. As to other mention of elect in bible, I'll have a look see.

Don't recall who said what, but did someone say only these will be saved? If so, that's inaccurate, highly. These below have a specific role in the end times process. I'm not studied in prophesy and don't want to get entangled in it as well, just don't want to research the very much prophesy in bible which is very difficult to sort out for anybody.

No one understands all the prophecy in the bible, only their best understanding of what can be understood and thru the glasses of whatever else is part of their theology. Much is not explained, tho some say all is explained in the bible, but it clearly is not.

But again, this is clear, below is Jews.


4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

 

[jmacvols]

I cannot follow your line of thought here, sorry!
Our faith should not be in the one dunking you under the water....it should be in God, the One for the reason we do it....regardless of who administers It. I am in no way saying that because one receives a water baptism, that they are automatically baptized by the Holy Spirit...no....

that is between that person and God....God chooses who He Baptizes....not man....

but do not limit Him, as He will always have the elect...the remnant of the elect as well as the martyrs....those strong enough to even die for their faith...Surely they were baptized in the Holy Spirit! They are those true Christians who are, in reality...sinners no better than the rest (yes ALL of us Christians sin), but do understand what is going on and help further God's plan of Salvation. The Spirit of God MUST be with them to do so...

in His service
c

---I never said one should have faith in the one dunking you under. From Col 2:11-13 we should have faith in the operation (work) of God when we are water baptized. It is God who works to remove our sins when we are water baptized. And only water baptsim can remove sins. No verse says baptism with the Holy Spirit removes sins.

---Once again, I showed that baptism with the Holy Ghost was a prophecy of Joel that Christ fulfilled in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so that baptism is no more. Peter proves such in Acts 2:16. You deny this prophecy has been fulfilled. If so, then the man known as "Jesus" was not the Messiah, for the Messiah was to fulfill the law and prophets, this includes Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy Spirit, Mt 5:17.
No verse says baptism with the Holy Spirit lasts till the end of the world, no verse commands this baptism, no verse says this baptism remits sins/saves, no verse promises this baptism to us today.


---1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism. Again, there is one baptism in effect, not two, Eph 4:5. After the church began in Acts 2, we can plainly see that people were water baptized as the eunuch. The eunuch did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. If you claim 1 Cor 12:13 is baptism with the Holy Spirit then you have created two baptism which is contrary to the one baptism of Eph 4:5. Water baptism can be administered by humans, humans cannot administer baptism with the Holy Ghost. In 1 Cor 1:14,16 we see that Paul, a human, water baptized some of the Corinthians himself. So again, if you claim 1 Cor 12:13 is some kind of "Spirit" baptism, you create two baptism when only one is in effect per Eph 4:5.

---It's a different topic, but the ideas of premillennialism are not true. 1 Jn 2:18,22 there are many "anitchrists", they were around in John's day. Anyone who is against Christ, those that deny Him , those that are false teachers are antichrists. The world is full of them today and has been since the first century.

---God did not chose individuals who would be saved (the elect) or lost before the world began. Eph 1:4 says "chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." God predestined those that are in Christ to be saved, and each person chooses to be in Christ or not. When one chooses to be baptized, he then is put in Christ, Gal 3:27. God predestined a class of people called Christians, He did not predestinate particular individuals to be saved.

 

[zeke37]

Hello,

Hi, I need to study more on elect as doing word search popped up more things to look into.

But it is clear the 144,000 in Revelation are Hebrews and without a doubt.

The are Israelites, more properly. They are from Jacob.

Same exact list as in OT.

Not quite, but close. There are tribes that are not listed in the Rev7, that are listed in the OT. There are reasons for the omittings, and re admittances...

They are Jews.

No only 12,000 are Jews. Jews are from Judah.

If God has a remnant such as He does here, believe me, He is able to have a remnant of the Jews which all below are.

No, the list that you provided is not all Jews, but all Israel. USA and Britain are part of that Israel. Population migration...the scattered tribes and the promises to Joseph's sons...(couldn't be any other place on the earth).

Not sure why this is important though. As to other mention of elect in bible, I'll have a look see.

IMO, it is important so that people can realize that when Israelis mentioned in prophecy, it is not speaking of the Jews, but of who the scattered tribes became...and you know who I think that they have become. The bible is written to Christians.....and the elect are Christian and follow the Lamb and are spiritual virgins....

Don't recall who said what, but did someone say only these will be saved? If so, that's inaccurate, highly.

Only ones saved that are named....in the flesh....

but there is the spiritual bodied millennium, where many will become true Christians.

These below have a specific role in the end times process. I'm not studied in prophesy and don't want to get entangled in it as well, just don't want to research the very much prophesy in bible which is very difficult to sort out for anybody.

Slow and steady. All Revelations is based on the OT prophecies and the Gospel's end times prophecies.

No one understands all the prophecy in the bible,

are you sure? I do not but are you sure? How about almost all prophecy, as I believe there are some that hold the truth, led by the Spirit of God, taught by Him...

God promised that he would always have a remnant of election/chosen...and they would be led by the Holy Spirit, hence they would know the truth. But to be human is to err. No man is perfect.

only their best understanding of what can be understood and thru the glasses of whatever else is part of their theology. Much is not explained, tho some say all is explained in the bible, but it clearly is not.

I truly believe that it is. Finding the biblical pattern is how we search out the difficult passages. God will not put His elect through His wrath, as they shall be protected....but ALL of us must go through Satan's wrath....for there are 2 wraths....

God's Holy Spirit will protect the elect during the trib, and Christ will protect them through the Wrath. When the wrath is poured out, the change of 1Cor15 has already happened....we are all in spiritual bodies....good or bad or indifferent...but the wrath will not hurt those with the seal of God, but will have a huge effect on those with the mark of the beast....(anyone who worships Satan as Jesus or uses his system of currency int he NWO to come.)

But again, this is clear, below is Jews.

No, below is Israel. Jews are only from Judah, and there are only 12,000 of them...


there are more than one tribe. This is really not that difficult. I will highlight those from Judah (and Benjamin cause they stick with Judah)


4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, (these are the Jews)
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.(this is the other tribe that was around when Christ was walking the planet....where Paul(Saul) is from.

They are not all Jews, only 12,000 are, and of those, they all follow the Lamb of God, making them Messianic.

in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

---I never said one should have faith in the one dunking you under. From Col 2:11-13 we should have faith in the operation (work) of God when we are water baptized. It is God who works to remove our sins when we are water baptized. And only water baptsim can remove sins. No verse says baptism with the Holy Spirit removes sins.

It is the faith that removes your sins, by His grace, not any water...that is the example....but the one that comes baptizing with the Spirit...that is the great thing...

I believe that God still anoints people...His election to whom He gives spiritual gifts...

---Once again, I showed that baptism with the Holy Ghost was a prophecy of Joel that Christ fulfilled in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so that baptism is no more.

And again, I showed that you were incorrect, as the Olivette discourse confirms...

Peter proves such in Acts 2:16.

Says you? He confirms that the gift is the same as that which Joel spoke of, and in verse 20 we are given the "when".

You deny this prophecy has been fulfilled.

I believe that the example is fulfilled and the anti-type is still future...at the trial of the elect at the end of the tribulation.

If so, then the man known as "Jesus" was not the Messiah, for the Messiah was to fulfill the law and prophets, this includes Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy Spirit, Mt 5:17.

Christ is coming again, and has not yet fulfilled all things...but He will...there is another advent...so How can you say that all things are already fulfilled....? I mean they are going to be 100% fulfilled, but as of yet, no!

No verse says baptism with the Holy Spirit lasts till the end of the world, no verse commands this baptism, no verse says this baptism remits sins/saves, no verse promises this baptism to us today.

I have already answered these statements by you.


---1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism.

in your opinion, not mine.

Again, there is one baptism in effect, not two, Eph 4:5.

Again, your opinion, as the words lead me to believe that we are speaking of a spiritual baptism, not a water baptism. But there is another possibility....

Christianity was being divided by the people, as per who did the baptizing....some from Peter, and some from Paul...etc....so this could be saying that there is only one....belief in Christ...and that baptism has nothing to do with Paul or Peter's part in it. The baptism is about Christ, not Peter or Paul...and since we are speaking of the body of Christ, that makes sense...one body....

After the church began in Acts 2, we can plainly see that people were water baptized as the eunuch. The eunuch did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Acts2
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

nuff said...Joel's prophecy was about the end times, just as this type points out....as it connects the end times with this event...as verse 20 should tell you.

now I fully accept the water baptism, and it is what we are told to do, as a step of faith....please notice

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I contend that the gifts can only be given to someone who is in the Spirit...lead by Him, to further the Commission...baptized in the Spirit of God...

and about the eunuch, just before the eunuch, AFTER Acts2, we see the Spirit of God baptizing people....contrary to what you state.

Acts8

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:


15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

direct comparison...between the water and the Spirit baptism.
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

This is the Spirit Baptism...to receive the Holy Ghost, do you agree?
and remember that after the eunuch was water baptized, he witness Phillip being taken away, and went rejoicing.....he was happy, and (no doubt in my mind) that he was Spirit filled...for the Spirit told Phillip to find the eunuch to begin with.

If you claim 1 Cor 12:13 is baptism with the Holy Spirit then you have created two baptism which is contrary to the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

Again, I think that you are wrong about the intention of the writer in Eph4:5. It was to unite the body under Christ, instead of under Paul and Peter and the other Disciples.

Water baptism can be administered by humans, humans cannot administer baptism with the Holy Ghost.

I agree.

In 1 Cor 1:14,16 we see that Paul, a human, water baptized some of the Corinthians himself. So again, if you claim 1 Cor 12:13 is some kind of "Spirit" baptism, you create two baptism when only one is in effect per Eph 4:5.

Your premise is wrong.

---It's a different topic, but the ideas of premillennialism are not true. 1 Jn 2:18,22 there are many "anitchrists", they were around in John's day. Anyone who is against Christ, those that deny Him , those that are false teachers are antichrists. The world is full of them today and has been since the first century.

---God did not chose individuals who would be saved (the elect) or lost before the world began. Eph 1:4 says "chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."

look up the greek word katabole, do a search...

look up foundations of the world...do a search...piece it together and get back to me...

God says...Esau I hate and Jacob I love...before they were even born...why? Because He knew what they were like, from that age before this one.

and the elect and prophets were predestined before the world age that is now in existence....to further God's plan.

God predestined those that are in Christ to be saved, and each person chooses to be in Christ or not.
When one chooses to be baptized, he then is put in Christ, Gal 3:27. God predestined a class of people called Christians, He did not predestinate particular individuals to be saved.

Well, again I disagree...the elect are predestined, and not all Christians are elect. But to each their own...

in His service
c

 

[jmacvols]

Well, again I disagree...the elect are predestined, and not all Christians are elect. But to each their own...

in His service
c

The elect are made up of all Christians: the elect = Christians.

You say it is faith that removes sins. No, It is God that removes sins when one is buried in baptism, Col 2:11-13.

THe mount of olives does not prove your point. Peter in Acts 2:16 plainly proves that "this" [the Jewish apostles being baptized with the Holy SPirit] was "that" which Joel prophesied.

No, you have not given a single verse that say baptism with the Holy SPirit remits sins/saves or that it last till the end of time or that it was commmanded or that it is for all creature/the whole world. You have claimed that 1 Cor 12:13 is baptism with the Holy SPirit, but have given no proof. Paul, a human, plainly water baptized the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Paul said there is one baptism, Eph 4:5. Hamonizing verses:

1 Cor 12:13--Spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>body
Jn 3:5-------Spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>kingdom

From above kingdom and body are the same. they are equal, both are a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives and the bible does not contradict itself, these two verse must say the same thing. We can see that 'baptized' in 1 Cor 12:13 and 'water' in Jn 3:5 reference the same thing: water baptism.

When in EPh 4:5 Paul said there is one baptism, he meant just that: one baptism, not two or three. So there is one baptism in effect today. As already noted, Paul water baptized the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16. This is one baptism. Yet you try to make 1 Cor 12:13 "Spirit" baptism creating two, not one.

Again, the purpose of the Messiah coming to earth was to fulfill the prophets, which includes the prophet Joel, Mt 5:17. If Christ did not do this then he was not the Messiah. Peter proved that Joel's propehcy about God's spirit being poured out was being fulfilled, Acts 2:16. I believe Acts 2:19,20 was fulfilled at the crucifixtion of Christ, and Acts 2:21 was fufilled in Acts 2:38 as follows:

Acts 2:21--whosever shall call upon the Lord>>>saved
Acts 2:38--repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Being 'saved' and having 'sins remitted' are the same thing, they are equal. Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then both verse must say the same thing, therefore when one repents and is baptized is is calling upon the Lord as Paul in Acts 22:16.


In Eph 1:4 God, before the world began, predestined those in Christ to be saved. Those in Chrsit are Christians. So God predestined a class of people called Christians to be saved, and each person has to choose if they want to be a Chrsitian or not. God did not predestine any particular individuals.

God choosing Jacob obver Esau had nothing to do with salvation. God was simply choosing which one of the twins would bring His chosen people Israel into the world through. Just becasue God chose Jacob, that had not efffect upon Esau's eternal destiny. God said he loved Jacob and hated (loved less) Esau in Mal 1:2,3. This was said about the twins centuries after they had already died, not before they were born.

 

[zeke37]

Hello

The elect are made up of all Christians: the elect = Christians.

I disagree, for many say they are Christians but to God they are not, as Christ will say to many..." I never knew you "!

You say it is faith that removes sins. No, It is God that removes sins when one is buried in baptism, Col 2:11-13.

Faith in God to remove those sins, as our BELIEF and FAITH in Christ Messiah gives us credentials with the Father, who forgives the sin.

So, by your understanding, one could theoretically....NOT believe in Jesus,...but get baptized in water, and that is good enough for remission of sins? Even if their is no true repentance? What about the thief on the cross?

THe mount of olives does not prove your point.

It does if you know what I am referring to! The same speech that was used in Acts2 will be used again in the end days...as the Olivette discourse proves.

Peter in Acts 2:16 plainly proves that "this" [the Jewish apostles being baptized with the Holy SPirit] was "that" which Joel prophesied.

If you continue reading, we are given the "time" of fulfillment in verse 20. The Acts2 is an example of the fulfillment to come in the end days.

No, you have not given a single verse that say baptism with the Holy SPirit remits sins/saves or that it last till the end of time or that it was commmanded or that it is for all creature/the whole world.

It was not me that you were arguing with over these things...but anyway...

I will ask you 2 things. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit could come upon one that had not yet been forgiven of their sin? Do you believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

You have claimed that 1 Cor 12:13 is baptism with the Holy SPirit, but have given no proof.

I gave the verses which is the proof?

Paul, a human, plainly water baptized the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Paul said there is one baptism, Eph 4:5. Hamonizing verses:

One in Jesus (not Paul or Peter or Simon etc..., whether it be the example of water Baptism or the reality to come of the Spirit Baptism....one in Christ.

1 Cor 12:13--Spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>body
Jn 3:5-------Spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>kingdom

From above kingdom and body are the same. they are equal, both are a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives and the bible does not contradict itself, these two verse must say the same thing. We can see that 'baptized' in 1 Cor 12:13 and 'water' in Jn 3:5 reference the same thing: water baptism.

So, let me get this strait, by your understanding, water Baptism is what SAVES? Not the belief in Christ and following His path and running the entire race, but rather being symbolically baptized? It is not something that can be faked, not possible...so it is not a symbol as you say of water that Saves, bu the faith and obedience to do so...but make no mistake, it is the Spirit Baptism which matters...

your little charts mean something to you....but I do not see it the same way.

When in EPh 4:5 Paul said there is one baptism, he meant just that: one baptism, not two or three. So there is one baptism in effect today.

yes, in Christ, not after Paul, Peter or whoever brought them the Gospel of Christ....that was the problem..some were following Peter and some Paul, instead of all following Christ.

As already noted, Paul water baptized the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16. This is one baptism. Yet you try to make 1 Cor 12:13 "Spirit" baptism creating two, not one.

No I do not. I am saying that the Baptism is in Christ, not divided between the Apostles..There is not a Pauline Christianity, nor a Peter-ine Christianity...only 1 CHRISTIANITY.

Again, the purpose of the Messiah coming to earth was to fulfill the prophets, which includes the prophet Joel, Mt 5:17.

There are many reason why He came, and will come again. I f you think that ALL has been fulfilled already, I guess that you do not look for Him to return again! That is what you are saying, is it not? If Christ had fulfilled all things, that would include ALL things that most of us see as yet still future.

If Christ did not do this then he was not the Messiah.

No, if Christ DOES NOT do this then He was not the Messiah....even if it takes Him 2 advents to do so.

but since He was the Messiah, then He will eventually complete His Mission and fulfill ALL things, as is written...

Christ will come again, hence He has not fulfilled all things yet.

Peter proved that Joel's propehcy about God's spirit being poured out was being fulfilled, Acts 2:16.

He proved it as a type. The anti-type is prophesied to happen in the 20th verse...as in the last days...

I believe Acts 2:19,20 was fulfilled at the crucifixtion of Christ, and Acts 2:21 was fufilled in Acts 2:38 as follows:

Acts 2:21--whosever shall call upon the Lord>>>saved
Acts 2:38--repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

OK then, have at er friend.



Being 'saved' and having 'sins remitted' are the same thing, they are equal. Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then both verse must say the same thing, therefore when one repents and is baptized is is calling upon the Lord as Paul in Acts 22:16.

Well, what about that thief on the cross, was he saved? Do you think that Jesus considered him saved before they died? Was he baptized in water?


In Eph 1:4 God, before the world began, predestined those in Christ to be saved.

No, He chose the election before the foundations of the world, all Christians are NOT elect, but all elect are Christians, for they follow the Lamb where ever He goes.

Those in Christ are Christians.

Those in Christ are Christians, however many claim Christ who are not in Christ. There are the 10 virgins, and 5 were foolish...all 10 are Christians....but only 5 are faithful.

So God predestined a class of people called Christians to be saved, and each person has to choose if they want to be a Chrsitian or not. God did not predestine any particular individuals.

Says you. I disagree wholeheartedly.

God choosing Jacob obver Esau had nothing to do with salvation.

I agree. It had to do with what those two individuals did in the age before the foundations of the world.

God was simply choosing which one of the twins would bring His chosen people Israel into the world through.

But why is the question. Why judge a baby before he had even a chance to sin in this world? God knew both souls that He placed in those babies...and one was proud of his heritage...and one was not. One cared for God and one cared for his stomach.

Just becasue God chose Jacob, that had not efffect upon Esau's eternal destiny.

Huh? Esau had the same chance as the rest to accept God, but he did not, and turned away from the birthright of firstborn....God knew the kind of person that the twins would be....from the past age...

God said he loved Jacob and hated (loved less) Esau in Mal 1:2,3.

No, actually although Hate was mistranslated in the NT, here in Mal1 it is not

Here is the Hebrew for the word hate...

H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly

Nothing about love less...you just guessed there....and we should not guess with the Word.
At least now you are edified here with the word hate in Mal1. It definitely does not mean love less.


This was said about the twins centuries after they had already died, not before they were born.

God declared that He hated Esau and Loved Jacob before they were even Born, told to us later, but never the less...DECLARED by God before they were born.

I have no wish to debate theology with a preterist...so good bye.


Keep studying...

in His service
c

 

[jmacvols]

Hello


Those they claimed to be Chrsitians but are not never were Chrsitians and were never part of the elect. Only Chrsitians make up the elect.

No verse say faith by itself or belief alone removes sins, yet Acts 2:38 tells us baptism does. Mk 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. The conjunction "and" joins belief to baptism and no one can separate the two. One recieves the gift of the Holy SPirit after he has first been water baptized Acts 2:38. The gift of the Holy Ghost is not baptism with the Holy Ghost.
The thief lived under the OT law and is not an example of NT salvation.

Joel said in the last days God would pour out His spirit. THe last days begain at Pentecost, they are not in the future, Acts 2:16,17. As Peter points out that the apostles being baptized with the Holy Gost was Joel's prophecy, then the last days began at Pentecost.

You gave no verse that proves 1 Cor 12;13 is some kind of "Spirit" baptism. Are you denying that Paul water baptized the Corithians in 1 Cor 1:14,16?

The Messiah came for various reasons, and one of those reasons was to fulfill the law and prophets, Mt 5:17. If Jesus did not fulfill Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy SPirit then Jesus was not the Messiah.

Peter plainly says "baptism doth also now save us." Many have tried to pervert this verse by changing the "w" in the word 'now' to a "t".
1 COr 12:13 and Jn 3:5 both say the same thing: it takes Spirit + water baptism to put one in the kingdom/body. They harmonize perfectly. You don't see this, so are you saying there is more than one way to be saved or that the bible contradicts itself?

You say there is one Christianity, there is also one baptism, Eph 4:5, in effect today. Again, do you deny Paul water baptized the Corinthians in 1 COr 1:14,16?

No verse says it will take Christ "two advents" to fulfill the law and prophets. He fufilled them to take the OT out of the way and usher in the NT. If the OT law and prophets have not been fulfilled they are still in effect, every jot and tittle, and binding upon you, including the animal sacrifices, purifications, pilgrimages, etc, etc.

Again you reapeat not all Chrsitains are not elect. If one is not part of the elect, the one is not a Christian. There is no such animal as a non-elect Christian.

God loved Jacob and hated Esau was said centuries after they were born not before. Israel asked God how God loved them. So this statement was made about the people that came from the twins, not the twins themselves. God loved Israel and hated the Edomites. The word hate here is giving God human attributes, anthropopathism (sp?). See Gen 29:30,31. Verse 30 shows Leah was loved less, but verse 31 says she was "hated".

 

[tapero]

To any who read this.

Salvation comes by faith in Christ alone.

There is nothing one can do to merit salvation, only belive in Christ.

With that faith in Christ, now in Christ, a believer is forgiven for all sins, future past and present.

We know this for many reasons, but one is believers only judgement faced is only for works and only for loss/gain of reward in heaven.

Our walk with God begins when we are in Christ, which is at the moment we believe.

A Christian never loses their salvation.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

It is my understanding that baptism is the outward sign of what Christ has already done; washed away the sin. It is a symbol. We are buried with him in baptism, then raised again as He rose, to live a new life in Him. But the person is saved the minute he/she accepts Christ's blood as the penalty for sin. What happens if someone accepts Christ, then dies in a car accident on the way to church to be baptized? I can't believe God would say, "Sorry, time's up."

 

[zeke37]

Those they claimed to be Chrsitians but are not never were Chrsitians and were never part of the elect. Only Chrsitians make up the elect.

I disagree...I understand that the elect are a very small portion of the church body. In the trib, there are those 5 unwise brides in waiting, and 5 smart ones....but all 10 are Christians...awaiting Christ's return and the wedding to come....

so, you are incorrect about your assumption that all Christians are elect. They are not. The 5 foolish virgins believe in Christ but are closed to certain truths, as per the plan of God....to keep them innocent so He can redeem them later...in the Millennium....only the elect are granted sight and ears to hear the deep truths of His plan...and that was granted to them, before this age of flesh ever started. It is a reward to be an elect...from that 1st age.

No verse say faith by itself or belief alone removes sins, yet Acts 2:38 tells us baptism does. Mk 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. The conjunction "and" joins belief to baptism and no one can separate the two.

I do not deny that that is the pattern we are to follow...but it is not set in stone so to speak, as the thief on the cross proves...he was not baptized and Christ said that that thief overcame.

One recieves the gift of the Holy SPirit after he has first been water baptized Acts 2:38.

Again, I do not disagree with Acts2:38...

but if you read further...say chapter10....we learn that your pattern is not set in stone. In fact...well read for yourself...

Acts10

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is not baptism with the Holy Ghost.

The above is indeed the same as in Acts2. Same tongue that magnified God, and all the believers saw the proof of the Holy Spirit on the gentiles...as they exclaimed in disbelief!!!

The thief lived under the OT law and is not an example of NT salvation.

So, then either are John and Peter and Paul and all the disciples, or Mary, or...etc...

...i disagree...

Joel said in the last days God would pour out His spirit. THe last days begain at Pentecost, they are not in the future, Acts 2:16,17. As Peter points out that the apostles being baptized with the Holy Gost was Joel's prophecy, then the last days began at Pentecost.

Keep reading further down (verse 20...where the time frame of those last days are given....) as I have asked you to do before, but for which you have not replied!!!

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

so, friend... Acts 2 is not the fulfillment...it is the type, and the event prophecied about will happen when the events of verses 19-20 happen...

You gave no verse that proves 1 Cor 12;13 is some kind of "Spirit" baptism. Are you denying that Paul water baptized the Corithians in 1 Cor 1:14,16?

I contend that the gifts of the Spirit are indeed the Holy Spirit Baptizing one in that gift (ability)....you have the right to disagree...and again, I do not find any proof for the charismatic tongue, as I believe that it is a mistranslation of 1Cor14 mixed in with tradition and deception.

The Messiah came for various reasons, and one of those reasons was to fulfill the law and prophets, Mt 5:17. If Jesus did not fulfill Joel's prophecy about baptism with the Holy SPirit then Jesus was not the Messiah.

Jesus was never supposed to fulfill that prophecy. But if you are lumping this event of the Holy Spirit in with Christ who in all things are fulfilled, then you are mistaken...and not only that, Christ comes in 2 stages....one 2000 years ago, and one soon to come. At the 2nd advent, many things will be fulfilled.

one of those things just before His return, is the trial of the elect, the few faithful believers who do not get fooled by the fake Jesus (Satan cast from heaven) during that Tribulation. That trial will be publicised world wide (via tv/internet/radio) and at that trial, the elect shall once again speak that Cloven tongue of Fire that is understood by all who hear it....and directly from the Holy Spirit....as a very final witness before the return of Messiah. This event is the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, not the Acts2/10 events. Those were the types...

At the end of the 1000 year Millennium, when Christ places all things at His Father's feet (symbolic of course) then all things will be complete in Christ...

But now, no. Not if you believe in a literal 2nd coming of Christ...

so Do you?

Peter plainly says "baptism doth also now save us." Many have tried to pervert this verse by changing the "w" in the word 'now' to a "t".
1 COr 12:13 and Jn 3:5 both say the same thing: it takes Spirit + water baptism to put one in the kingdom/body. They harmonize perfectly. You don't see this, so are you saying there is more than one way to be saved or that the bible contradicts itself?

No the bible does not contradict itself, but the thief still made it in, thus his sins were forgiven, and there was no water baptism for him. So, your rule is orderly tradition but not 100% necessary, if the case calls for it. God is fair, and He won't hold it against someone if there is no water around at the specific time...and in the thief's case, no water available at all, as he was dying on a cross..

You say there is one Christianity, there is also one baptism, Eph 4:5, in effect today. Again, do you deny Paul water baptized the Corinthians in 1 COr 1:14,16?

The Baptism is in Christ, that is the one baptism....not in John, or in Peter, or in Paul....but only in Christ. Water is the example or the type, and the Spirit is the fulfillment or the anti-Type.

No verse says it will take Christ "two advents" to fulfill the law and prophets.

So you are saying that there are no OT prophecies about the 2nd coming...and what happens during that exact time???

He fufilled them to take the OT out of the way and usher in the NT. If the OT law and prophets have not been fulfilled they are still in effect, every jot and tittle, and binding upon you, including the animal sacrifices, purifications, pilgrimages, etc, etc.

You have made your own little dividers to place things in...your own categories...that I do not hold to.

There are many OT prophecies that have yet to be accomplished....but because Christ was born and died for us, those future events will indeed come to pass....but have not yet...and that is quite obvious to realize...for most of us that is.



Again you reapeat not all Chrsitains are not elect. If one is not part of the elect, the one is not a Christian. There is no such animal as a non-elect Christian.

Says you, I disagree. again, 10 virgins, 5 foolish and 5 smart, but all waiting for the groom to show up. They all believed.

God loved Jacob and hated Esau was said centuries after they were born not before.

but God said it right?

Israel asked God how God loved them. So this statement was made about the people that came from the twins, not the twins themselves.

Let's see what the scriptures say...

first Malachi 1

1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.


2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Now here it is both a national statement, based on the real personal lives of the twins.

The national pattern always follows the namesake...they are types...and antitypes...so hate one and you hate the other...hate the person Esau and therefor hates Edom....as they are both (nation and individual) representative of the same ideals.

the word hate here in Malachi 1:3 is


H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.




not love less....

now Romans 9

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

personal here.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

personal again

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

this verse should stand on its own, I hope you understand.

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

personal again

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

as it is written in the Old Test in Malachi, and the word hate is definitely not love less.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

why would He hate one and love the other before they were born??? is He unjust?? NOPE! He has a reason...

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Esau did not even care, let alone run the race...

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God loved Israel and hated the Edomites.

He may have, but that is not what is being said. Every remark is personal, not general or country wide.

The word hate here in Romans 9:13 is...

G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσοςmisos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

It has been used as love less before, when the Love is obvious as in the love for our parents.... You are asking us to believe that this is the usage here, when God really tells us why He hates the nation...and does so in no uncertain terms in Rom 9 and Mal 1. It is not love less, but hate.

The word hate here is giving God human attributes, anthropopathism (sp?). See Gen 29:30,31. Verse 30 shows Leah was loved less, but verse 31 says she was "hated".

In Gen29, we are told that Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah...and that is what the Hebrew implies..as Jacobs heart was always with Rachel.

here in Gen29 , Love is...

H157
אהב אהב
'âhab 'âhêb
aw-hab', aw-habe'
A primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): - (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.

The word love can also mean like, or friend...and we know that they were all married...

and hate is...once again...

H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

and Leah proclaims that because she is not barren in the womb, that she can get Jacob to love her, which implies that he did not love her at that time....not loved her less...but not at all. Remember the circumstances of the marriage.

 

[tapero]

It is my understanding that baptism is the outward sign of what Christ has already done; washed away the sin. It is a symbol. We are buried with him in baptism, then raised again as He rose, to live a new life in Him. But the person is saved the minute he/she accepts Christ's blood as the penalty for sin. What happens if someone accepts Christ, then dies in a car accident on the way to church to be baptized? I can't believe God would say, "Sorry, time's up."

You're right God doesn't do such. Once we believe we are sealed with a mark, a guarantee, of redemption (salvation.) There's no losing such, no matter what occurs.

While many live a life, not believing they have salvation unless they follow certain formulas, actually these same ones many times develop laws for themselves, which if trangressed they are in dread.

I feel bad for those who don't think that Jesus is enough to save them,and think that by their own efforts they will attain salvation, and also feel bad for those who think if they don't confess their sin, they will go to hell, as you said, what if sinned, didn't confess and dies.

Believers are only judged for their works, and only for loss or gain of reward in heaven. Has nothing to do with their salvation. Even one whose works are all burnt up, is still saved.

Believers are not judged for sin, because our sins have all been forgiven when we came to Christ. Believers are only judged for their works as stated above.

Only non christians are judged for their sin, and same as not believing in Christ, having never obtained forgiveness for sins.

So, while there's two different camps, well, many I suppose, I do feel bad for those who have no assurance of salvation; mostly passed down by preacher, priest, instead of seeing in the bible such is so.

For as many scriptures they find that say it is more than belief in Jesus, if read in context, as well as consider other verses, they will know and see, Christ alone saves, thru belief, and salvation is secure upon belief in Christ.

 

[zeke37]

So,

It is not love less, no matter how many times you wish it was..or say that it is. There is one occasion in the Greek, where Love less is the proper translation, and hate is used...but only the one time in the NT Gospel. Not here in the Old Test, nor in Roman 9 either

I answered your questions, and you have not answered mine. Would you please?

and we have not yet even discussed Jerimiah!!!

in His service
c