Matthew 28:19 - what formula?

[RefrusRevlis]

In another thread the authenticity of the words:

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


was questioned. Quite convincingly the case for the authenticity was stated and overwhelming evidence cited.

A number of times in the thread the word "formula" was used to describe the words " in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". This brings up the question in many people's minds what is the correct from of words to be used. I submit that the words are NOT a formula to be spoken, but merely expressing by whose authority the baptising is to be done. Consider the definition of the word name:

Oνομα [onoma /on·om·ah/] ...1 name: univ. of proper names. 2 the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one’s rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc. 3 persons reckoned up by name. 4 the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason.​

Strong, J. 1996. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) . Woodside Bible Fellowship.: Ontario

Consider some other places the phrase "in the name of" is used:

Luke 23:39

for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Acts 9:29
and he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him.
James 5:10
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.​

These are but a few examples of the phrase being used.

It is when we insist it is a precise formula to be recited that we have problems, for the accounts in other scriptures have a different set of words. , eg Acts 2:38

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is no contradiction between these two phrases, for when one obeys Christ that person necessarily obeys the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Refrus

 

[tapero]

In another thread the authenticity of the words:

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


was questioned. Quite convincingly the case for the authenticity was stated and overwhelming evidence cited.

A number of times in the thread the word "formula" was used to describe the words " in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". This brings up the question in many people's minds what is the correct from of words to be used. I submit that the words are NOT a formula to be spoken, but merely expressing by whose authority the baptising is to be done. Consider the definition of the word name:

Oνομα [onoma /on·om·ah/] ...1 name: univ. of proper names. 2 the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one’s rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc. 3 persons reckoned up by name. 4 the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason.​

Strong, J. 1996. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) . Woodside Bible Fellowship.: Ontario

Consider some other places the phrase "in the name of" is used:

Luke 23:39

for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Acts 9:29
and he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him.
James 5:10
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.​

These are but a few examples of the phrase being used.

It is when we insist it is a precise formula to be recited that we have problems, for the accounts in other scriptures have a different set of words. , eg Acts 2:38

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is no contradiction between these two phrases, for when one obeys Christ that person necessarily obeys the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Refrus

Hi, I'm not sure if your post is referring to baptism or the gospel message.

One can come to Christ, by saying I believe. Once we believe, we are baptised into Christ, sealed and can never lose our salvation. Bible has few different scriptures about coming to Christ. One is:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Another is:

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Above is also the verse that shows once we believe, we can never lose our salvation. But posted to note, having believed, in blue above, having believed what? The gospel.

As water baptism has nothing to do with salvation; commonly those who baptise do say the words as the scripture shows when baptising someone.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question,

thanks,
tapero

 

[New_Wineskin]

Hi, I'm not sure if your post is referring to baptism or the gospel message.

One can come to Christ, by saying I believe. Once we believe, we are baptised into Christ, sealed and can never lose our salvation. Bible has few different scriptures about coming to Christ. One is:



Another is:



Above is also the verse that shows once we believe, we can never lose our salvation. But posted to note, having believed, in blue above, having believed what? The gospel.

As water baptism has nothing to do with salvation; commonly those who baptise do say the words as the scripture shows when baptising someone.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question,

thanks,
tapero

Yes . Water doesn't bring salvation - the Lord's death and resurrection did - the gospel . This worrying about words makes the Scriptures into spell books - If you say the right words and perform the right dance , something magical happens . Might as well go back to paganism .

 

[InFathersArms]

Yes . Water doesn't bring salvation - the Lord's death and resurrection did - the gospel . This worrying about words makes the Scriptures into spell books - If you say the right words and perform the right dance , something magical happens . Might as well go back to paganism .

Excellent, New_Wineskin, and you're absolutely right - there's absolutely nothing magical about incantations. God does care that we understand, in our hearts. Beyond that, we could quote the Bible, paraphrase it, or remain silent throughout baptism, or any other common Christian practice. I honestly believe He wouldn't mind at all if we were humming the tune to Gilligan's Island, so long as our hearts were in the right place.

It's God's gift to all, free and clear of all payment, strings, etc., on our part, save one - acceptance. And that happens when, strangely enough, we accept the Gospel, which, unmagically translated, is simply the good news of Christ taking what would/should have been the punishment for our own sins - death.

Baptism comes later, as an outward sign of an inward choice in one's heart to accept our sinful nature and the covering of our sin by Christ's sacrifice.

 

[jmacvols]

Hi, I'm not sure if your post is referring to baptism or the gospel message.

One can come to Christ, by saying I believe. Once we believe, we are baptised into Christ, sealed and can never lose our salvation. Bible has few different scriptures about coming to Christ. One is:

No verse after the church began says belief alone can save. [No verse says one cannot lose their salvation either]. You quoted Romans 10:9 which says if one 1) confesses with the mouth and 2) believes in his heart thou shalt be saved. This verse mentions two things necessary to be saved, not belief alone.

Another is:



Above is also the verse that shows once we believe, we can never lose our salvation. But posted to note, having believed, in blue above, having believed what? The gospel.

Above you quote Eph 1:13 which says that after ye believed ye were sealed. Note it does not say after ye believed alone. The bible shows us that the Ephesians faith included water baptism. Also note that this verse contains the phrase in whom, twice, with whom referring to Christ. So those that are in Christ are the ones sealed. There is no verse that guarantees that one can never fall away outside of Christ. We have examples of those that fell and plenty of warnings and admonishments about falling. If you believe the church at Ephesus could never lose their salvation, how do you explain Rev 2:1-7, the church at Ephesus had fallen, left their first love and was threatened by Christ to repent or else? If they could not lose their salvation, could they commit all those things mentioned in Eph 5:3-5 and still inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God? And what need is there to put on the whole armour of God if salvation cannot be lost, Eph 6:13ff?

As water baptism has nothing to do with salvation; commonly those who baptise do say the words as the scripture shows when baptising someone.

Water baptism has everything to do with salvation. It is in water baptism sins are remitted, Acts 2:38 it is water baptism that puts one in Christ, Gal 3:27 it is water baptism that lets one walk in newness of life and justifies one before God, Rom 6:1-7. Salvation is not possible without these things and water baptism is the only thing that brings them about. No verse says belief alone brings these things about.

 

[7angel]

What says Jesús ? : 41 Isaiah said this because he saw his glory 22 and spoke about him. 42 Nevertheless, many, even among the authorities, believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not acknowledge it openly in order not to be expelled from the synagogue. 43 For they preferred human praise to the glory of God. 44 Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, 45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me."
Many baptized people, are thieves, lie, assassins, covet, magnificent, violent, etc. But, the one that is baptized with the Holy Spirit no longer can make these things

 

[tapero]

No verse after the church began says belief alone can save. [No verse says one cannot lose their salvation either]. You quoted Romans 10:9 which says if one 1) confesses with the mouth and 2) believes in his heart thou shalt be saved. This verse mentions two things necessary to be saved, not belief alone.





Above you quote Eph 1:13 which says that after ye believed ye were sealed. Note it does not say after ye believed alone. The bible shows us that the Ephesians faith included water baptism. Also note that this verse contains the phrase in whom, twice, with whom referring to Christ. So those that are in Christ are the ones sealed. There is no verse that guarantees that one can never fall away outside of Christ. We have examples of those that fell and plenty of warnings and admonishments about falling. If you believe the church at Ephesus could never lose their salvation, how do you explain Rev 2:1-7, the church at Ephesus had fallen, left their first love and was threatened by Christ to repent or else? If they could not lose their salvation, could they commit all those things mentioned in Eph 5:3-5 and still inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God? And what need is there to put on the whole armour of God if salvation cannot be lost, Eph 6:13ff?



Water baptism has everything to do with salvation. It is in water baptism sins are remitted, Acts 2:38 it is water baptism that puts one in Christ, Gal 3:27 it is water baptism that lets one walk in newness of life and justifies one before God, Rom 6:1-7. Salvation is not possible without these things and water baptism is the only thing that brings them about. No verse says belief alone brings these things about.

Hi, I won't refute what you say as we believe differntly, but I can assure you, I didn't confess Jesus's name nor even say I believe when I came to Christ.

I was asked two questions and said yes to those two.

So, God is not a maker of word law of how one comes to Christ, simply believing in Christ is how one comes to Christ.

Many complicate the gospel of grace and just as Jesus accused the pharisees of keeping people out, still occurs today and much more requirements added.

I'll always preach grace alone, and faith in Christ alone, as is all that is needed to become a Christian.

When Paul came to Christ, he neither said he believed nor did he in fact say anything BUT, who are you Lord?

that's just a small example.

but if get out of whatever circle one is in, and see how others do come to Christ, by listening to their stories, you will see there is no magic word, no formula, nothing, but to believe in Christ.

 

[jmacvols]

What says Jesús ? : 41 Isaiah said this because he saw his glory 22 and spoke about him. 42 Nevertheless, many, even among the authorities, believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not acknowledge it openly in order not to be expelled from the synagogue. 43 For they preferred human praise to the glory of God. 44 Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, 45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me."
Many baptized people, are thieves, lie, assassins, covet, magnificent, violent, etc. But, the one that is baptized with the Holy Spirit no longer can make these things

Above you quote where the Pharisees believed but would not confess. Therefore belief alone in the absence of confession does not save...this passage shows it takes belief + confession to be saved. One has his past sins remitted when he is water baptized, one does not become sinlessly perfect. Look at the example of Simon in Acts 8. He believed and was baptized but later sinned, but repented of that sin. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is obsolete and no one today receives this baptism.

 

[jmacvols]

Hi, I won't refute what you say as we believe differntly, but I can assure you, I didn't confess Jesus's name nor even say I believe when I came to Christ.

I was asked two questions and said yes to those two.

So, God is not a maker of word law of how one comes to Christ, simply believing in Christ is how one comes to Christ.

Many complicate the gospel of grace and just as Jesus accused the pharisees of keeping people out, still occurs today and much more requirements added.

I'll always preach grace alone, and faith in Christ alone, as is all that is needed to become a Christian.

When Paul came to Christ, he neither said he believed nor did he in fact say anything BUT, who are you Lord?

that's just a small example.

but if get out of whatever circle one is in, and see how others do come to Christ, by listening to their stories, you will see there is no magic word, no formula, nothing, but to believe in Christ.

The church began in Acts 2. Can you show from Acts 2 onward just one example of someone being told that "belief alone" saves?

 

[tapero]

The church began in Acts 2. Can you show from Acts 2 onward just one example of someone being told that "belief alone" saves?

I'd rather you go and open yourself up to many christians and listen to how they came to Christ.

There is no formula, no rules, no right words, only what we say to God, no baptism needed (we are baptised into Christ when we believe), nothing needed but belief in Christ.

We can never lose our salvation.

While I understand your desire to hash these issues out, it's not my desire; I leave that to those who like to do such and surely by your questions others will.

I prefer posting in discussion and debate (in debate forums -though haven't done since 777) in replies and spend long hours supporting my reply thru scripture and research but in christian section, I've found it futile to do so, so let others do it. Some get offended, some angry, some start attacking others, etc.. I don't like to be part of that. So, that's why I won't refute nor research to reply to your question.

Others will and I see no need as also any who believes there are formulas and musts do's to come to Christ do not grasp the gospel at all and trying to tell such is like speaking to a wall, and they do not desire to know differently but only to continue to say why they are right and other is wrong.

Can you tell me what forumula (words spoken) Paul spoke when Jesus called him on the Damascus road when Paul was called and saved? as well as the formula or words spoken by the thief?

Again, if want to know that coming to Christ has no formula, predefined words, or anything in addition to I accept your gift Jesus, or I believe in you Jesus, or the many other things one can utter to come to Christ, when they come to Christ, it will help you see what actually occurs in the world.

Reading books on missionaries, and asking Christians how they came to Christ shows the answer, and many are very different.

Some radio/tv/famous pastors says thus must be said, and the ones who so follow do that.

But Christ is not those people and knows our hearts, and as you read the many testimonies here and again asking other christians how they came to Christ, or reading books of missionaries, and others, you will see that there is no fomula, words or anything other than belief in Christ is needed to come to Christ.

I know it's true, as I know how I came to Christ, as well many others coming thru the simplicity of the gospel which is to believe in Christ by faith. Nothing else, and all that occurs after, occurs after we come to Christ, water baptism does not save, nor does many other things some Christians add to the list.

thanks.

 

[brimac]

There is NO formula!

 

[jmacvols]

I'd rather you go and open yourself up to many christians and listen to how they came to Christ.

There is no formula, no rules, no right words, only what we say to God, no baptism needed (we are baptised into Christ when we believe), nothing needed but belief in Christ.

We can never lose our salvation.

While I understand your desire to hash these issues out, it's not my desire; I leave that to those who like to do such and surely by your questions others will.

I prefer posting in discussion and debate (in debate forums -though haven't done since 777) in replies and spend long hours supporting my reply thru scripture and research but in christian section, I've found it futile to do so, so let others do it. Some get offended, some angry, some start attacking others, etc.. I don't like to be part of that. So, that's why I won't refute nor research to reply to your question.

Others will and I see no need as also any who believes there are formulas and musts do's to come to Christ do not grasp the gospel at all and trying to tell such is like speaking to a wall, and they do not desire to know differently but only to continue to say why they are right and other is wrong.

Can you tell me what forumula (words spoken) Paul spoke when Jesus called him on the Damascus road when Paul was called and saved? as well as the formula or words spoken by the thief?

Again, if want to know that coming to Christ has no formula, predefined words, or anything in addition to I accept your gift Jesus, or I believe in you Jesus, or the many other things one can utter to come to Christ, when they come to Christ, it will help you see what actually occurs in the world.

Reading books on missionaries, and asking Christians how they came to Christ shows the answer, and many are very different.

Some radio/tv/famous pastors says thus must be said, and the ones who so follow do that.

But Christ is not those people and knows our hearts, and as you read the many testimonies here and again asking other christians how they came to Christ, or reading books of missionaries, and others, you will see that there is no fomula, words or anything other than belief in Christ is needed to come to Christ.

I know it's true, as I know how I came to Christ, as well many others coming thru the simplicity of the gospel which is to believe in Christ by faith. Nothing else, and all that occurs after, occurs after we come to Christ, water baptism does not save, nor does many other things some Christians add to the list.

thanks.

1) you keep suggesting I ask other how they "came to Christ". What others say about this does not matter, but what matters is what does the bible say. What terms did Christ set to be saved, not what terms men have set for themselves.


2) as for Saul, in Acts 9:6, he was told by Jesus to go to the city and there he would be told what he must do. This is something you have denied. You said those who believe in "must do's" to come to Christ do not grasp the gospel at all. He was told in the city by Ananias to be baptized and wash away his sins. Therefore Saul was still lost in his sins on the road to Damascus.

The thief lived under the OT law and is not an example of NT salvation.

3) I am not offended if you quote verses to try and prove your point, for it's the only way possible to prove your points.

 

[tapero]

1) you keep suggesting I ask other how they "came to Christ". What others say about this does not matter, but what matters is what does the bible say. What terms did Christ set to be saved, not what terms men have set for themselves.


2) as for Saul, in Acts 9:6, he was told by Jesus to go to the city and there he would be told what he must do. This is something you have denied. You said those who believe in "must do's" to come to Christ do not grasp the gospel at all. He was told in the city by Ananias to be baptized and wash away his sins. Therefore Saul was still lost in his sins on the road to Damascus.

The thief lived under the OT law and is not an example of NT salvation.

3) I am not offended if you quote verses to try and prove your point, for it's the only way possible to prove your points.

First, Paul had free will and did NOT have to do what Jesus said. We have free will. He could have refused (but then again there are those Christians who deny that also.) But thankfully he did what Jesus told him to do. He believed in Christ, the moment he was called.

As to what Paul must do, that was for Paul. We know that baptism does not wash away our sins at all. Perhaps in Acts time such was the word used or understanding of Ananias.

Many come to Christ, and are baptised years later, and baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and does not remove or wash away sin.

If you are one who believes they are sinless as I'm starting to think you may; you are in dire need of understanding or looking in your heart. You sin, I sin, we all sin, and we will until we die.

We sin before Christ, but we also sin after Christ, but we are forgiven all sin when we come to Christ and has nothing to do with baptism. As you will realize when you take the whole nt in context.

If you are afraid to learn that others come to Christ other than the formula you have that is to your loss. It's a big world out there and and to hear the wonderful stories how brothers and sisters came to Christ, is awesome.

your arguement is similar to the argument I've seen that one must only pray to the Father, because of the Lords prayer. Unbelievable but such is taught by some, as same as what you are teaching that one must do such and such to be saved.

There is no magic words, no formula, no need for baptism, etc to be saved.

What you write is revealing that you most likely believe only you and certain ones like you are true christians as if a formula you deem in the bible isn't followed then they must not be.

I am telling you that many Christians did not and do not follow any words or magic formula (which doesn't exist) to come to Christ. You have a narrow view of what acutally occurs in the world concerning Christians and reading books and talking with Christians opens it.

On your not being offended, I already told you I'm not going to spend time studying and looking up scripture to refute you. It is not my battle. What you believe is common to hear from certain denominations and is not what all believe, and there is no rhyme or reason for me to help you understand that we are under grace, as you won't get it, nor most likely desire to.

You already said that the verse I said, shows we never lose salvation is wrong, so why should we even being posting to each other. You have your understanding.

What you write is a what your church teaches you perhaps, your tradition perhaps, your understanding of the word, and your insistance that such be followed.

You may seek to continue to seek to make it difficult for a person to enter the kingdom of God, (be saved) heaven as the pharisees did, by adding rules and laws and yokes, that are not there. May none of us ever be guilty of such.

 

[jmacvols]

First, Paul had free will and did NOT have to do what Jesus said. We have free will. He could have refused (but then again there are those Christians who deny that also.) But thankfully he did what Jesus told him to do. He believed in Christ, the moment he was called.

Paul could have disobeyed (Acts 26:19) what Jesus told him he must do, but the disobedient will be lost. Therefore it was necessary for Paul to do what the Lord said he must do in order to be saved.

As to what Paul must do, that was for Paul. We know that baptism does not wash away our sins at all. Perhaps in Acts time such was the word used or understanding of Ananias.

Paul was told by the Lord he must do something, "must do" being a necessary action. In Acts 22:16 he was commanded to be baptized, "be baptized" being in the imperative mood. So being baptized was what was necessary for Paul to do. This baptism here is the baptism of the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16, which is to be taken to the whole world, all creatures, not just for Paul. This baptism of the great commission is for all people until the end of the world.

Many come to Christ, and are baptised years later, and baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and does not remove or wash away sin.

You say baptism does not remove or wash away sin, but Peter, an inspired apostle, says it does, Acts 2:38.

If you are one who believes they are sinless as I'm starting to think you may; you are in dire need of understanding or looking in your heart. You sin, I sin, we all sin, and we will until we die.

I have never said I was sinless or even remotely alluded to such an idea, so there is no reason for you to think such.

We sin before Christ, but we also sin after Christ, but we are forgiven all sin when we come to Christ and has nothing to do with baptism. As you will realize when you take the whole nt in context.

Do you have a verse that backs this quote of yours?
This is not what Peter told those who asked him "what shall we do?" in Acts 2:37,38.
If one takes the whole NT in context, one will quickly find it takes more than "belief alone" to be saved. Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16 it also takes repentance, confession and baptism.

If you are afraid to learn that others come to Christ other than the formula you have that is to your loss. It's a big world out there and and to hear the wonderful stories how brothers and sisters came to Christ, is awesome.

As I have said before, one cannot come to Christ on their own terms, one must come to Christ on His terms, and His terms include more than just belief alone.

your arguement is similar to the argument I've seen that one must only pray to the Father, because of the Lords prayer. Unbelievable but such is taught by some, as same as what you are teaching that one must do such and such to be saved.

I do not advocate that people repeat the prayer found in Mt 6:9ff for Christ's kingdom has already come.

There is no magic words, no formula, no need for baptism, etc to be saved.

Since you use no verses to back this statement up, this is merely your opinion.

What you write is revealing that you most likely believe only you and certain ones like you are true christians as if a formula you deem in the bible isn't followed then they must not be.

Only those who obey what Christ said are Christians, and Christ has said it takes more than "belief alone" or a "sinner's prayer" to make one a Christian.

I am telling you that many Christians did not and do not follow any words or magic formula (which doesn't exist) to come to Christ. You have a narrow view of what acutally occurs in the world concerning Christians and reading books and talking with Christians opens it.

If they did not do what Christ said to do, then they are not Chrsitians, they only think they are. Yes, I do have a narrow view for the bible is truth, and truth by its very nature is narrow. You know as well as I, there are hundreds if not thousands of religious groups in this country. They teach things contrary to each other, yet they all claim to have the truth. They all may be wrong, but it is impossible for them to all be right. If I am required to believe that 'truth' can be found and that "Christians" are made among all this confusion and contradictions, I would write "Christianity" off as nothing more than a hypocritcal joke.

On your not being offended, I already told you I'm not going to spend time studying and looking up scripture to refute you. It is not my battle. What you believe is common to hear from certain denominations and is not what all believe, and there is no rhyme or reason for me to help you understand that we are under grace, as you won't get it, nor most likely desire to.

I believe what is in the bible and denominationalism goes against what the bible teaches. If you think one can be saved "any old way" they claim to be saved, then yes, you do need to spend time studying and looking up scriptures.

You already said that the verse I said, shows we never lose salvation is wrong, so why should we even being posting to each other. You have your understanding.

I just want that verse to be kept in its context. If the church at Ephesus could never lose its salvation, then it would have been impossible for that church to ever fall and leave their first love (Christ), but they did, Rev 2:1-7. So I have my understanding of this verse while others have a dire misunderstanding of it.

What you write is a what your church teaches you perhaps, your tradition perhaps, your understanding of the word, and your insistance that such be followed.

I do not have a church, but Christ has one though. So what I believe comes from Christ's words, the bible. Having said that, I could take what you say about me above and say it about you. That you insist "my way" is wrong while you insist that your way is right. You become guilty of what you accuse me.

You may seek to continue to seek to make it difficult for a person to enter the kingdom of God, (be saved) heaven as the pharisees did, by adding rules and laws and yokes, that are not there. May none of us ever be guilty of such.

I have not added anything so you accusation against me here is false. I have given a book, chapter and verse while you refuse to do the same. As far as likening me to a Pharisee, can you show me just one place where the Pharisees were condemned for following God's will to a "T"? It appears that the difference between us is that you believe salvation comes by what one thinks or feels while I believe it comes by only obeying what Christ said.

 

[tapero]

Paul could have disobeyed (Acts 26:19) what Jesus told him he must do, but the disobedient will be lost. Therefore it was necessary for Paul to do what the Lord said he must do in order to be saved.



Paul was told by the Lord he must do something, "must do" being a necessary action. In Acts 22:16 he was commanded to be baptized, "be baptized" being in the imperative mood. So being baptized was what was necessary for Paul to do. This baptism here is the baptism of the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16, which is to be taken to the whole world, all creatures, not just for Paul. This baptism of the great commission is for all people until the end of the world.



You say baptism does not remove or wash away sin, but Peter, an inspired apostle, says it does, Acts 2:38.



I have never said I was sinless or even remotely alluded to such an idea, so there is no reason for you to think such.



Do you have a verse that backs this quote of yours?
This is not what Peter told those who asked him "what shall we do?" in Acts 2:37,38.
If one takes the whole NT in context, one will quickly find it takes more than "belief alone" to be saved. Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16 it also takes repentance, confession and baptism.



As I have said before, one cannot come to Christ on their own terms, one must come to Christ on His terms, and His terms include more than just belief alone.



I do not advocate that people repeat the prayer found in Mt 6:9ff for Christ's kingdom has already come.



Since you use no verses to back this statement up, this is merely your opinion.



Only those who obey what Christ said are Christians, and Christ has said it takes more than "belief alone" or a "sinner's prayer" to make one a Christian.



If they did not do what Christ said to do, then they are not Chrsitians, they only think they are. Yes, I do have a narrow view for the bible is truth, and truth by its very nature is narrow. You know as well as I, there are hundreds if not thousands of religious groups in this country. They teach things contrary to each other, yet they all claim to have the truth. They all may be wrong, but it is impossible for them to all be right. If I am required to believe that 'truth' can be found and that "Christians" are made among all this confusion and contradictions, I would write "Christianity" off as nothing more than a hypocritcal joke.



I believe what is in the bible and denominationalism goes against what the bible teaches. If you think one can be saved "any old way" they claim to be saved, then yes, you do need to spend time studying and looking up scriptures.



I just want that verse to be kept in its context. If the church at Ephesus could never lose its salvation, then it would have been impossible for that church to ever fall and leave their first love (Christ), but they did, Rev 2:1-7. So I have my understanding of this verse while others have a dire misunderstanding of it.



I do not have a church, but Christ has one though. So what I believe comes from Christ's words, the bible. Having said that, I could take what you say about me above and say it about you. That you insist "my way" is wrong while you insist that your way is right. You become guilty of what you accuse me.



I have not added anything so you accusation against me here is false. I have given a book, chapter and verse while you refuse to do the same. As far as likening me to a Pharisee, can you show me just one place where the Pharisees were condemned for following God's will to a "T"? It appears that the difference between us is that you believe salvation comes by what one thinks or feels while I believe it comes by only obeying what Christ said.

Thanks, didn't read though, so will just drop convo here. God bless.

 

[jmacvols]

Thanks, didn't read though, so will just drop convo here. God bless.

So in summary you cannot biblically prove your beliefs, have no desire to do so, and if anyone disagrees with your opinions, they are wrong.

 

[tapero]

So in summary you cannot biblically prove your beliefs, have no desire to do so, and if anyone disagrees with your opinions, they are wrong.

Yes, I can prove the truth by the bible, but have told you twice, I am not going thru that trouble as I do not debate with Christians who practice legalism and add to the bible things not there, nor on any matter, I just point out false teachings, misapplications, bad theology, dotrine, etc, as I see them. (Not saying you're a false teacher.)

I don't post for the one holding such, but for those who will read such so that they know is not truth.

The only place I debate is in discussion and debate. I haven't done so for some time but will soon get back into it.

It takes much bible searching and research. Takes hours to write one reply. I never start a topic there, only reply to what's asked.

Thanks,
tapero

 

[zeke37]

Above you quote where the Pharisees believed but would not confess. Therefore belief alone in the absence of confession does not save...this passage shows it takes belief + confession to be saved. One has his past sins remitted when he is water baptized, one does not become sinlessly perfect. Look at the example of Simon in Acts 8. He believed and was baptized but later sinned, but repented of that sin. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is obsolete and no one today receives this baptism.

I would say that the elect do!!!

God always promises to have a remnant who know the truth. The rest shall be closed to certain facts....that is why Christ taught in Parables....and then plainly to His disciples. I would say that one would need to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be one of the remnant or elect...

So, today...since Christ, there have been some that have the Baptism.

in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

Hello, I felt lead to respond to your post.

First, Paul had free will and did NOT have to do what Jesus said. We have free will. He could have refused (but then again there are those Christians who deny that also.) But thankfully he did what Jesus told him to do. He believed in Christ, the moment he was called.

Paul's free will was to arrest and KILL Christians...
Christ stopped that free will on the way to Damascus, and was he changed by God proving that Paul did NOT have free will. He was a chosen vessel of God....to bring the message of Salvation to the Gentiles....chosen before the foundations of the World...in the age that was....

Paul did not have free will completely...as any of the prophets....see Jonah...he tried to NOT do God's will, but that was impossible....Jonah did NOT have free will

As to what Paul must do, that was for Paul. We know that baptism does not wash away our sins at all.

Sure it does...have you not read?

Many come to Christ, and are baptised years later, and baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and does not remove or wash away sin.

Yes I agree that can be the case...as can the opposite...being baptized first...and then developing a deep relationship with Christ...some call it being born again...

If you are one who believes they are sinless as I'm starting to think you may; you are in dire need of understanding or looking in your heart. You sin, I sin, we all sin, and we will until we die.

We all sin...only Christ was sinless...that is why Christ taught to forgive a brother who sins 7x70 times a day....also pointing to Daniel's prophecy of Him...

your arguement is similar to the argument I've seen that one must only pray to the Father, because of the Lords prayer. Unbelievable but such is taught by some,

Christ for One...Yes Christ taught that same exact doctrine. Pray to the Father. I am curious why you would do otherwise?

as same as what you are teaching that one must do such and such to be saved.

There is no magic words, no formula, no need for baptism, etc to be saved.

Christ gave us the example of baptism....but as we learn...there is water baptism..and then there is the Holy Spirit Baptism. The water is to get you ready for the real thing...as in Scripture..the example first...and then the reality. The "type" first and then the "anti-type". This pattern is also seen with Christ Himself...

Now that said...there is no formula that MUST be followed, as the thief on the cross was not baptized in water. He just believed. The proof for me is that Christ told him that they would see each other in Heaven that day...so Jesus knew.

You may seek to continue to seek to make it difficult for a person to enter the kingdom of God, (be saved) heaven as the pharisees did, by adding rules and laws and yokes, that are not there. May none of us ever be guilty of such.

The kingdom is attainable only by the strait and narrow path. Christianity on a whole is not on the strait and narrow path...but on the wide easy path....soon that path will become wider when the antiChrist(Satan) arrives on earth....and tricks the unlearned Christians into believing that he is Messiah returned...and those sottish children worship him as God...as it is written...

remember that the prophets were killed for their testimony....and they say much the same things as some of us here are saying.

God wrote the Book for You and Me....it is a love letter to His children. Now, all will not accept the truth inside....and that includes many Christians as well. They would rather believe a preacher over the Bible.

The disciples asked Christ HOW they should pray.....they being around the Messiah...did not know who to direct their prayers to....

and Christ answered with the Our Father...

so I will follow that lead and pray to the Father through the belief in the Son of Man and in Christ's name....

just as we are taught to do.




We are not to add rules or regulations, but we are to follow the ones laid out for us in the NT...and take the example from the OT.


in His service
c

 

[tapero]

Hello, I felt lead to respond to your post.



The kingdom is attainable only by the strait and narrow path. Christianity on a whole is not on the strait and narrow path...but on the wide easy path....soon that path will become wider when the antiChrist(Satan) arrives on earth....and tricks the unlearned Christians into believing that he is Messiah returned...and those sottish children worship him as God...as it is written...

remember that the prophets were killed for their testimony....and they say much the same things as some of us here are saying.

God wrote the Book for You and Me....it is a love letter to His children. Now, all will not accept the truth inside....and that includes many Christians as well. They would rather believe a preacher over the Bible.

The disciples asked Christ HOW they should pray.....they being around the Messiah...did not know who to direct their prayers to....

and Christ answered with the Our Father...

so I will follow that lead and pray to the Father through the belief in the Son of Man and in Christ's name....

just as we are taught to do.




We are not to add rules or regulations, but we are to follow the ones laid out for us in the NT...and take the example from the OT.


in His service
c

hi, it is your understanding of the word, to your ability, as in your walk with God, as well as applies to me.

You are not a prophet speaking truth, one that might be killed, as I am speaking the truth as well, and wouldn't pull up a martyr issue to back up what I believe.

Salvation if by grace thru faith in Christ alone.

the elect refers to others, and not the body (church.) Don't recall now but if correct, refers to the Jews.

The sheep know his voice.

The ones who will be/are decieved are those not in Christ, never were, EXCEPT during the tribulation period.

I doubt very much that your whole being since Christ is on the straight and narrow, if it is you are lying, per 1st john.

So, you see you have rules and guidelines (laws) for yourself and try to apply them to others. Some are not for this dispensation, but if one doesn't know the whole context of nt, then there's where confusion lies, and many bad theologies and doctrines come from.

There is one way to Christ, thru belief in Him, nothing else, nothing more. After we come to Christ our walk begins.

Christ could'nt very well say pray to me, when he'd not yet been crucified. It doesn't matter if we pray to Father, Son or Spirit or Lord, there is ONE God.

Much is being added; rules and regulations; but since one believes such; they never question why.

There are NO rules, and no regulations.

When we come to Christ, the work begins in us, by the Spirit, by us learning in the word, by many things.

We never lose our salvation,ever, clearly written we are sealed by the Holy Spirit guaranteeing our redemption.

Woe to those who take the simplicity of the gospel and make it impossible for those to come to the Kingdom, or turn them off forever with additions and such that God never desired.

Figure out the dispensations and you will understand much more.

blessings,
tapero