Matthew 28:18-20

[St. Worm2]

Well I'm still not seeing it but I will look at this greek word and see if it explains it the way you say and get back to you. I have read about this passage in the Barclay's Apology and he should know a little greek and he didnt mention this so either he avoided it because it would prove him wrong or you are strechting the words meaning, So I'll look it up and see. I'm not accusing you really just that I've read to views so I quess i should look for my self.

Hey Jay, you should definitely check it out. I NEVER trust myself when I'm working with original languages, so I always go to my commentaries and confirm it there. In this case, I actually posted what the commentaries had to say (I think I gave reference to them). One was MacArthur's commentary on Matthew and the other was D. A. Carson's from the Expositor's Commentary Series (the best commentary on Matthew, IMHO), and both Dr. Carson and Dr. MacArthur agreed on the in context meaning of Mathēteuō. If you find something contradictory though, please be sure to let me/us know!

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Hey Jay, you should definitely check it out. I NEVER trust myself when I'm working with original languages, so I always go to my commentaries and confirm it there. In this case, I actually posted what the commentaries had to say (I think I gave reference to them). One was MacArthur's commentary on Matthew and the other was D. A. Carson's from the Expositor's Commentary Series (the best commentary on Matthew, IMHO), and both Dr. Carson and Dr. MacArthur agreed on the in context meaning of Mathēteuō. If you find something contradictory though, please be sure to let me/us know!

Yours in Christ,
David

Well i did a little research on it and this is my commentary of this passage or word. Matheteou = disciple. the deffinition given was, 1. To be a disciple of one, a. to follow his prcepts and instructions
2. To make a disciple, a. to teach, instruct.
Translated word is disciple- be a disciple, instruct, teach, or become a disciple, made disciple or make disciple.
So in this passage in matt. it could be, to go and make disciples( to teach so they will convert to a doctrine or principle) or (to make them disciple so they can into do the same.) So it could mean to make the nations disciples. But this sentence is not a two part one, it is one sentence. It doesnt say, make disciples and baptize in the name of... ,And the word "in" is better translated "into" which makes it not a form, but the form of saving grace. Hopefuly that wasnt to confusing. But we must also look at the other gospel accounts of this going out. Mark states it this way " Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. This go and preach the good news can also be, go and make disciples, but it mentions nothing of baptizeing into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you are to make disciples, you are to preach the good news firsts. Fits definition 1. above. It then says in the next verse, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemed. So you are taught the good news , if you believe this good news you are baptized. But if it is of water this takes grace away, so it is refering to the way you are transformed as stated in Titus 3:4-8 and Rom. 6. So if its the same in both meaning wise in Matt. it is saying to teach them the good news and save them by the Father sending his son and the son giving the Holy Spiirit. Lukes passage of this going out is similiar to Marks, it states this "..And repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning with Jerusalem. The repentance is turning from your past ways, this by the good news. Forgiveness is by way of believing and excepting the good news, after which you recieve the Holy Spirit which cleanse you as dicribed in Titus 3:4-8, also refered to as baptism, For Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit. The spirit gives birth to the spirit. Well if its a little confusing let me know. I'll try to make it make more sence.

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm not here to explain my view bcause I have in the above post, but just to say hey and good job on the evolutionist/creation forum, they really dont like you or I there and just say we are ignorant of what we know of evolution, but its expected i quess. just wanted to say keep up the good work over there and whether we change minds or not at least they wont think they can convince anyone its true. anyone that knows a little bit about it anyways.

Thanks Jay, its allways nice to hear a friendly voice in cyberspace given the amount of debate I indulge in. I don't go on there to convince evolutionists of anything other then creationism being a creadible worldview. Occasionally I manage to put a little information that helps to edify a believer, that's what we do, that is what is important.

I would like to talk about baptism if you are interested in the subject. When I encountered various church doctrines concerning water baptism I started checking referances to baptism in the Bible. Years ago an old Pentacostal preacher and Bible school president told me something that I will never forget. He said that 'the Baptism that now saves us' (2Peter 3:21) is the baptism into Christ. I looked at passages in the Old Testament a little differant after that, the Red Sea crossing, crossing the Jordon, the Flood...all could be considered baptisms, at least in a general sense. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, The Baptism of the cross, even water baptism are both figurative and literal.

If you are interested in pursuing the topic I'll be interested in anyting you have to say.

Grace and Peace,
Mark

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Thanks Jay, its allways nice to hear a friendly voice in cyberspace given the amount of debate I indulge in. I don't go on there to convince evolutionists of anything other then creationism being a creadible worldview. Occasionally I manage to put a little information that helps to edify a believer, that's what we do, that is what is important.

I would like to talk about baptism if you are interested in the subject. When I encountered various church doctrines concerning water baptism I started checking referances to baptism in the Bible. Years ago an old Pentacostal preacher and Bible school president told me something that I will never forget. He said that 'the Baptism that now saves us' (2Peter 3:21) is the baptism into Christ. I looked at passages in the Old Testament a little differant after that, the Red Sea crossing, crossing the Jordon, the Flood...all could be considered baptisms, at least in a general sense. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, The Baptism of the cross, even water baptism are both figurative and literal.

If you are interested in pursuing the topic I'll be interested in anyting you have to say.

Grace and Peace,
Mark

This baptism idea is something i look into alot or like to discuss because my background of Quakerism (Friends). They do neither water baptism or communion or a least didnt in the early years of it. They do now in many areas because there are not many quaker pastors because we do not require a certifacate from a colloge of theology or such, many of the new pastors are from other denominations so some ideas get mixed in wiht the old.
You are right that in the old testement water was used alot to symbolize cleanseing which is abvious do to the fact it was the only idea there was. They did not understand or know of anything spiritual in the Law. though if you look before the law it was very spiritual and nothing of water is mentioned. They spoke directly to God. this is what we now have. which is why Christ died to lead us back to this way of communication with him. The first instance of water relating to cleansing was noah, used in 1 Peter, but its interesting to note that it is not the water that saved him it was his Faith to build the Ark that did. The water distroyed or cleansed the earth of sin. This cleansing as stated in 1 Peter was signifying the cleansing of the soul or conscience, described in Titus 3:5, which also mentiones water but not the same, its washing. I always looked at the isrealites lives and how God dealt with them to represent our lives individually, and how God deals with us. We arque and go against God continually and always go against what is right in his sight. The blood sacrifices was to seek forgiveness but it really didnt beacause it was not effective towards the heart of man. This is why Christ died and baptized with the holy Spirit to cleanse this heart of ours. But the only way is by the Spirit. All the prophets that God used to deal with the Isrealits never mentioned water in any significant way. They always dealt with the heart of the people. If you read Hebrews 11 you will see that all the faith shown none mentions water except going through the red sea, and it even says like on dry land. None even mention touching water in any way as well. Because the spirit cant be cleansed by as physical thing. It can be shown by whats phsyical because thats how we relate to things. seeing all this and what Hebrews 9:10 speaks of I really dont see the importance of it, but would never say you or anyone should not, as long as you understand what God is looking at in you, which is your heart.

 

[greeker57married]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

The Word "make diciples is μαθητεύω or matheteuo, the noun word for disciple mathetes comes from this verb matheteuo which means to make disciples or to teach or instruct. In the context to teach them in such a way that they trust Christ and become his disciple. It is the only verb and command in the passage. Baptizing and teaching them are verbal ajectives or partciples. Baptim and teaching go along with making disciples. Once they are save they are to follow the Lord in baptism. and then be taught the things of God.

ct 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Act 16:32 And they spake the word of the Lord unto him, with all that were in his house.

Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately.


Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Clearly the Bibleteacheswater Baptism as evidence of one's salvation.
"Into the Name of" means in the name of. you are not baptized into a name literally. But "in the name of" means in the authority of one in this case God.
"mathēteusate) such as they were themselves. That means evangelism in the fullest sense and not merely revival meetings. Baptism in (eis, not into) the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Trinity. Objection is raised to this language in the mouth of Jesus as too theological and as not a genuine part of the Gospel of Matthew for the same reason. See note on Mat_11:27, where Jesus speaks of the Father and the Son as here. But it is all to no purpose. There is a chapter devoted to this subject in my The Christ of the Logia in which the genuineness of these words is proven. The name of Jesus is the essential part of it as is shown in the Acts. Trine immersion is not taught as the Greek Church holds and practices, baptism in the name of the Father, then of the Son, then of the Holy Spirit. The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority. For the use of eis with onoma in the sense here employed, not meaning into, (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.

God Bless
John

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

The Word "make diciples is μαθητεύω or matheteuo, the noun word for disciple mathetes comes from this verb matheteuo which means to make disciples or to teach or instruct. In the context to teach them in such a way that they trust Christ and become his disciple. It is the only verb and command in the passage. Baptizing and teaching them are verbal ajectives or partciples. Baptim and teaching go along with making disciples. Once they are save they are to follow the Lord in baptism. and then be taught the things of God.

ct 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Act 16:32 And they spake the word of the Lord unto him, with all that were in his house.

Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately.


Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Clearly the Bibleteacheswater Baptism as evidence of one's salvation.
"Into the Name of" means in the name of. you are not baptized into a name literally. But "in the name of" means in the authority of one in this case God.
"mathēteusate) such as they were themselves. That means evangelism in the fullest sense and not merely revival meetings. Baptism in (eis, not into) the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Trinity. Objection is raised to this language in the mouth of Jesus as too theological and as not a genuine part of the Gospel of Matthew for the same reason. See note on Mat_11:27, where Jesus speaks of the Father and the Son as here. But it is all to no purpose. There is a chapter devoted to this subject in my The Christ of the Logia in which the genuineness of these words is proven. The name of Jesus is the essential part of it as is shown in the Acts. Trine immersion is not taught as the Greek Church holds and practices, baptism in the name of the Father, then of the Son, then of the Holy Spirit. The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority. For the use of eis with onoma in the sense here employed, not meaning into, (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.

God Bless
John

How long were the Apostles disciples of Christ before it was Christ sacrifice that saved them. And I dont think you can split up this verse it does not say go and make disciples of all nations AND baptize them. And I dont imagine that the phrase into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were meant to be the words used in the ordance. The greek words for into the name were eios to onoma, if it means into then how is not infered as this. They baptized into the name, virtue and power. Paul was taught by Christ himself and not the apostles and he said he did not come to water baptize but to preach the gospel. why would he say this if this verse meant to water baptize, ecpecially since he spoke to the gentiles, i would think it more important for them to do such a thing to have a badge to show there Faith. In the old testement circumcision was used. Being the gentiles were not taught this why wouldnt God wish them to do as such. Jesus was water baptized but said, for now let it be so. In eph 4:5 the one baptism is of the Holy Spirit. You read Rom. 6, Gal 3:27, Col. 2:12, all are of the Spirit because it is this that cleanses you Titus 3:4-7. As well Christ never taught about water baptism once in his many sermons or teachings. so why would it be important right before he leaves. They did water baptize but this was Johns baptism and did not save, for he was yet to die. I'll stop here because this is repeat of my above posts.

 

[greeker57married]

Dear W Jay Schroeder

How long were the Apostles disciples of Christ before it was Christ sacrifice that saved them. And I dont think you can split up this verse it does not say go and make disciples of all nations AND baptize them. And I dont imagine that the phrase into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were meant to be the words used in the ordance. The greek words for into the name were eios to onoma, if it means into then how is not infered as this. They baptized into the name, virtue and power. Paul was taught by Christ himself and not the apostles and he said he did not come to water baptize but to preach the gospel. why would he say this if this verse meant to water baptize, ecpecially since he spoke to the gentiles, i would think it more important for them to do such a thing to have a badge to show there Faith. In the old testement circumcision was used. Being the gentiles were not taught this why wouldnt God wish them to do as such. Jesus was water baptized but said, for now let it be so. In eph 4:5 the one baptism is of the Holy Spirit. You read Rom. 6, Gal 3:27, Col. 2:12, all are of the Spirit because it is this that cleanses you Titus 3:4-7. As well Christ never taught about water baptism once in his many sermons or teachings. so why would it be important right before he leaves. They did water baptize but this was Johns baptism and did not save, for he was yet to die. I'll stop here because this is repeat of my above posts.

"How long were the Apostles disciples of Christ before it was Christ sacrifice that saved them"

"Go there for and make disciples of all nations"

I don't see what your question has to do with the events in this verse. The Resurrected Lord was getting ready to ascend into heaven When He gave His mandate to make disciple of all nations. The apostles were alreay saved at this time.

"And I dont think you can split up this verse it does not say go and make disciples of all nations AND baptize them. And I dont imagine that the phrase into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were meant to be the words used in the ordance"

NO it says lit. "having gone make disciples of all nations, baptizing them"

Once they are saved the need to be baptized. As you notice in Acts 16 the Phillippian Jailer was baptized after he was saved. The same with the Ethiopian eunuch It is said that he and the eunuch went down into the water and was baptized after he was saved. Clearly water baptism.

The verb to baptize is the Greek Word baptizo which means to immerse or dip in water.

God Bless
john

 

[FaithAlone]

they had seen Christ baptizing in water

Jesus never baptized anyone in water. It was always His followers that baptized.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Dear W Jay Schroeder





"How long were the Apostles disciples of Christ before it was Christ sacrifice that saved them"

"Go there for and make disciples of all nations"

I don't see what your question has to do with the events in this verse. The Resurrected Lord was getting ready to ascend into heaven When He gave His mandate to make disciple of all nations. The apostles were alreay saved at this time.

"And I dont think you can split up this verse it does not say go and make disciples of all nations AND baptize them. And I dont imagine that the phrase into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were meant to be the words used in the ordance"

NO it says lit. "having gone make disciples of all nations, baptizing them"

Once they are saved the need to be baptized. As you notice in Acts 16 the Phillippian Jailer was baptized after he was saved. The same with the Ethiopian eunuch It is said that he and the eunuch went down into the water and was baptized after he was saved. Clearly water baptism.

The verb to baptize is the Greek Word baptizo which means to immerse or dip in water.

God Bless
john

So what of my thoughts on Paul being taught by Christ and not being told to do it. and the gentiles and this idea of a badge to show them to be saved, which is who Paul spoke to, and he says it is not what Christ sent him to do, and Hebrews 9:10.

 

[FaithAlone]

The verb to baptize is the Greek Word baptizo which means to immerse or dip in water.

True, it can mean that but that's only part of the definition.



1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

True, it can mean that but that's only part of the definition.



1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

It is also not to mean any of these as well, but to be purely symbolic, as with circumsision and others. Even water is used symboliclly.

 

[mark kennedy]

This baptism idea is something i look into alot or like to discuss because my background of Quakerism (Friends). They do neither water baptism or communion or a least didnt in the early years of it. They do now in many areas because there are not many quaker pastors because we do not require a certifacate from a colloge of theology or such, many of the new pastors are from other denominations so some ideas get mixed in wiht the old.

That is something I allways liked about Quakers, they are very inclusive. Personally, I don't think getting baptised or having communion can make you more spiritual all by itself. There has to more meaning then an empty ritual, it might help to look at what it meant to the early Christians. It was a common practice to be baptised when you repented in Jesus day. However, Jesus was baptised and he was sinless, ever wonder why? When a bride was preparing for her marriage she would be baptised in here wedding dress, was it because of sin, or was it something else?

When a bride was baptised she was dying to her old life as a child and daughter to be a wife and mother. Paul says something I think is along these lines, 'When I was a child, I thought as a child, I acted as a child, but when I was a man I was through with childish things'. When Jesus was baptised he was, in effect, dying to his previous life as a carpenter and a son to be priest and king. Do you see where I am going with this, if its just a ritual that gets you some points toward salvation then you really shouldn't bother.

If you read Hebrews 11 you will see that all the faith shown none mentions water except going through the red sea, and it even says like on dry land. None even mention touching water in any way as well. Because the spirit cant be cleansed by as physical thing. It can be shown by whats phsyical because thats how we relate to things. seeing all this and what Hebrews 9:10 speaks of I really dont see the importance of it, but would never say you or anyone should not, as long as you understand what God is looking at in you, which is your heart.

Lets look at this for a minute, the faith chapter of Hebrews and the examples of faith.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them embraced them and cofessed that were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Hebrews 11:13)

By faith we put the past behind us and imbrace a hope that we can neither see nor imagine. By faith we die to sin and are made alive for righteousness. By faith these examples of living in patience we suffer, struggle and are counted as sheep amoung wolves, never doubting that the one who made the promise is faithfull. Keep in mind that repentance in the New Testament is not a change of behaviour it is a change in attitude.

We have left out another kind of baptism that I think should be looked at:

But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to dring the cup that I am about to drink , and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" (Mathew 20:22)

This is from my all time favorite gospel song:

In the final hours of darkness,
in the garden their he prayed.
Father take this cup from me,
is there any other way.

As his prayer turned into pleading,
his sweat turned into blood.
Father prepare me now your will not mine be done.

And the thousand came to take the one,
and there he stood betrayed.
By the kiss that found forever,
the lamb who would be slain.

When they said which one is Jesus,
He spoke these simple words.
and the thousand fell before,
the answer that changed the world.

I AM he he said...

(Terry Talbot, I Am He)

If you can take communion and the rite of baptism with this in your heart, it can change your life. If you can take it to heart period it can change your life.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

That is something I allways liked about Quakers, they are very inclusive. Personally, I don't think getting baptised or having communion can make you more spiritual all by itself. There has to more meaning then an empty ritual, it might help to look at what it meant to the early Christians. It was a common practice to be baptised when you repented in Jesus day. However, Jesus was baptised and he was sinless, ever wonder why? When a bride was preparing for her marriage she would be baptised in here wedding dress, was it because of sin, or was it something else?

When a bride was baptised she was dying to her old life as a child and daughter to be a wife and mother. Paul says something I think is along these lines, 'When I was a child, I thought as a child, I acted as a child, but when I was a man I was through with childish things'. When Jesus was baptised he was, in effect, dying to his previous life as a carpenter and a son to be priest and king. Do you see where I am going with this, if its just a ritual that gets you some points toward salvation then you really shouldn't bother.



Lets look at this for a minute, the faith chapter of Hebrews and the examples of faith.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them embraced them and cofessed that were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Hebrews 11:13)

By faith we put the past behind us and imbrace a hope that we can neither see nor imagine. By faith we die to sin and are made alive for righteousness. By faith these examples of living in patience we suffer, struggle and are counted as sheep amoung wolves, never doubting that the one who made the promise is faithfull. Keep in mind that repentance in the New Testament is not a change of behaviour it is a change in attitude.

We have left out another kind of baptism that I think should be looked at:

But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to dring the cup that I am about to drink , and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" (Mathew 20:22)

This is from my all time favorite gospel song:

In the final hours of darkness,
in the garden their he prayed.
Father take this cup from me,
is there any other way.

As his prayer turned into pleading,
his sweat turned into blood.
Father prepare me now your will not mine be done.

And the thousand came to take the one,
and there he stood betrayed.
By the kiss that found forever,
the lamb who would be slain.

When they said which one is Jesus,
He spoke these simple words.
and the thousand fell before,
the answer that changed the world.

I AM he he said...

(Terry Talbot, I Am He)

If you can take communion and the rite of baptism with this in your heart, it can change your life. If you can take it to heart period it can change your life.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hey Mark never heard the bride being baptized thing before. Interesting. I agree if it is impotant for you to do communionand water baptism then it can be a very significant part of your Faith. Though I have for some reason never felt the urge for either. Maybe it is my upbringing. But I've looked into it alot and it never seems that important to me for some reason. It is always said that we do it to remember His death and ressurection. Why do we need two and for me I dont see how you could ever forget what he did. It is the whole point of salvation. Without doing this for us there is no salvation. I think he was baptized to fulfill prophecy. He did say "Let it be so now...", Matt. 3:15, He also went into the desert for forty days, right after, without eating or drinking. Dont see anyone doing this now. He also observed all the Jewish laws, which we also dont do now either. So to say Jesus did it so I will to, is strecthing beyond what is really said. He should of said so you see me doing this so you should too. The apostles water baptized befor Christ died on the cross so what came of these baptism, were the people who did them have to be rebaptized after Christ death. Just some questions for you that are on my mind. As For Hebrews 11:13, it is true we will not see what was promised untill we die, for our one promise is eternal life in paridise. I also mentioned Hebrews 9:10, what do you think of this passage.

 

[mark kennedy]

Ray,

I wanted to start by addressing your question about Hebrews 9:10, I thougth you should know that it is related to Hebrews 6:2. You seem to think of baptism as some kind of a ceremonial washing and I think that is unfortunate. Don't get me wrong I fellowshiped in a Pauline church for a while and they would not be baptised for any reason, I never thought it made that much difference to tell you the truth. The passage you are talking about is talking about ceremonial washings, the context demands this and it is different from the Christian ordinance of baptism. You have to understand what this meant to the people who were actually baptised in that day and age, it meant the death of the old life.

Jesus said at the last supper to do this in memory of me, he didn't want a monument, he just wanted them to remember. He told the Apostles to baptise disciples, now that does not mean you can't be a disciple otherwise but it is certainly a signifigant moment in redemptive history. If you can identify with Christ without water baptism then I see no reason why you should need it. If you can remember the flesh and blood of the Saviour being sacrificed for your sins without partaking of the Lord's Supper then your just as well without it. Christians who do these things find great signifigance and personal indentification with these simple little ceremonies, myself included.

It would be a terrible mistake to turn these profoundly meaningfull rites into the empty rituals of the apostate levetical system described in Hebrews. The prophets convey a strong message that the Jews of their day sickened God because they profaned His name dispite their devote abherance to them. Are we any better?

For me it's like marriage, if you are committed then it does not matter how you seal the covenant. If on the other hand you heart is never really set on it, all the marriage ceremonies in the world doesn't mean anything. On a personal note, I made a little speach to my wife about that before we got married. We still had the ceremony because it meant a lot to her and my opinion about it was beside the point. My point is simply this, water baptism does nothing for God since he allready knows the thoughts and inclinations of your heart. Jesus when he got caught gleaning corn on the Sabbath (considered working) said, the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath. If the rite of baptism doesn't really mean anything to you, that is no problem for me. The only way it would matter is if you were ashamed of the gospel, but with you I think they are two seperate issues.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[MbiaJc]

Why do people believe that the word BAPTISM in this Passage refers to water baptism. Or does making Disciples of men mean saving people and then water baptizing them. It means a spiritual Baptism which Jesus does and what Titus 3:4-8 shows and Rom 6 discribes. This is also considered the great commision

With what and how was Jesus baptised?

 

[Abiel]

' Does The Salvation Army practise baptism? If not, how do people become members of The Salvation Army?


The Army Founders’ attitude to baptism was similar to that of Communion. They saw dangers that the rite could replace the reality of entering into a living relationship with Jesus, and so they decided that the Army would not practise adult baptism.

To become a Salvation Army soldier a person must first and foremost acknowledge that they have asked God for forgiveness for their wrongdoing and that Jesus Christ is their saviour from sin.' from The Salvation Army website.

Not just Quakers. Salvos too.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Ray,

I wanted to start by addressing your question about Hebrews 9:10, I thougth you should know that it is related to Hebrews 6:2. You seem to think of baptism as some kind of a ceremonial washing and I think that is unfortunate. Don't get me wrong I fellowshiped in a Pauline church for a while and they would not be baptised for any reason, I never thought it made that much difference to tell you the truth. The passage you are talking about is talking about ceremonial washings, the context demands this and it is different from the Christian ordinance of baptism. You have to understand what this meant to the people who were actually baptised in that day and age, it meant the death of the old life.

Jesus said at the last supper to do this in memory of me, he didn't want a monument, he just wanted them to remember. He told the Apostles to baptise disciples, now that does not mean you can't be a disciple otherwise but it is certainly a signifigant moment in redemptive history. If you can identify with Christ without water baptism then I see no reason why you should need it. If you can remember the flesh and blood of the Saviour being sacrificed for your sins without partaking of the Lord's Supper then your just as well without it. Christians who do these things find great signifigance and personal indentification with these simple little ceremonies, myself included.

It would be a terrible mistake to turn these profoundly meaningfull rites into the empty rituals of the apostate levetical system described in Hebrews. The prophets convey a strong message that the Jews of their day sickened God because they profaned His name dispite their devote abherance to them. Are we any better?

For me it's like marriage, if you are committed then it does not matter how you seal the covenant. If on the other hand you heart is never really set on it, all the marriage ceremonies in the world doesn't mean anything. On a personal note, I made a little speach to my wife about that before we got married. We still had the ceremony because it meant a lot to her and my opinion about it was beside the point. My point is simply this, water baptism does nothing for God since he allready knows the thoughts and inclinations of your heart. Jesus when he got caught gleaning corn on the Sabbath (considered working) said, the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath. If the rite of baptism doesn't really mean anything to you, that is no problem for me. The only way it would matter is if you were ashamed of the gospel, but with you I think they are two seperate issues.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I agree as i said that if it is important for you then you should do it. The thing that bothers me is saying God commanded it but gave no instructions of how to do it properly why to do it and when it should be done. These issues if given clearly in the Word would not have caused such a strife within the Church and i do not think God would have done this purposly. You can say it is clear but it cant be with all the confusion with it. These two so called commands have caused more problems in the Church then most others. It should be taught to do if you feel lead to by the Spirit, nothing more. I have known many that have been baptized and feel saved when they are not. This bothers me. God did not give such a loose taught command to me. If as you say if the person feels no need to and thats fine why would he commmand it. I by no means would say not to ever do these if you fill lead to do them. It is very important they do not become rituals or ordances because they will end up like the past law ordances, its only human nature. The become empty and can lead away from true worship which is of the Spirit and Truth JOHN 4:23-24.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

With what and how was Jesus baptised?

it is not how or with what its why did he get water baptized. They way is never important its why that is always important.