Matthew 23:36

[nick garai]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

The Mystery of the Incarnation offers us a paradox, as we confess Jesus to be both God and man, fully both in perfect union without confusion or separation.

This means we can say things such as "God died" even though God cannot die. Or that "God suffered" even though God cannot suffer.

It also means that Jesus can not know something, even though He is God.

It's a mystery of the Christian faith, this divine-and-human union in Christ. How can Immortal, Eternal God suffer and die? And yet Christ suffers and dies, though being very and truly Immortal and Eternal God.

Those who reject Christ's Deity will no doubt say that this proves He cannot be true God. And yet Christians--beginning with the Apostles themselves--have always insisted that Christ is God. St. Paul says, "In Him the fullness of Deity is found in bodily form", St. John in the prologue of His gospel writes, "In the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was with God and the Logos was God", again St. Paul says, "Our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Then when we look at what the ancient fathers, the students and disciples of the apostles, have also said, we can see it has been confessed from time immemorial:

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" - St. Ignatius, 110 AD

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" - Tatian, 170 AD

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity in the thirty years which came before his baptism during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" - Melito of Sardis, 177 AD

"in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth" - St. Irenaeus, 190 AD

"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning — for he was in God — and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" - St. Clement of Alexandria, 190 AD

"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" - Origen, 225 AD

"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple" - Cyprian of Carthage, 250 AD

And we finally confess in the Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made"

Christ is true God and true man. This is the faith of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[A New Day]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

The answer is in the bible

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jesus, the son of God, the son of man, the word of God, does not speak of anything except what is in the mind of the Father because they are one.

 

[hedrick]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

The orthodox position is that the Logos lived with us as an actual human being, with all the human limitations. This wasn’t just God wearing the human equivalent of a gorilla suit, but an actual human being with a normal human will and understanding.

In what sense could this human being actually be the divine Logos? This requires us to think that God has an identity that isn’t limited to the all-powerful nature that we normally think of as God, but that this human actually shares God’s identity. That is, Christian theology has serious implications for how we think of God. We can’t think of God as just the unmoved mover. His core identity includes the obedient servant, whose unity with the Father continues even when he isn’t all-powerful.

Essentially what I’m saying is that the JW’s problem isn’t just with Jesus. It’s with God. Their image of God is of one who isn’t incarnateable, one who can’t take on true humanity. Christians don't start with a typical idea of God and then ask how Jesus could be his incarnation. They start with Jesus and ask what kind of God he shows us.

 

[hedrick]

The best argument I know for something like an orthodox position that is also consistent with current historical scholarship is N T Wright’s paper: JESUS AND THE IDENTITY OF GOD by N. Thomas Wright

Basically NT scholars know that 1st Cent Jewish thought used terms such as Wisdom or Logos to refer to God’s own presence with his people. Christians identified those with Christ. JW’s read these passages without an understanding of the original Jewish context, and see Wisdom / Logos as a separate preexistent entity, inferior to God. This was perhaps excusable in the time period when the JWs were founded. If taken at face value, without knowing the Jewish context, I think their understanding of those passages does make sense. Their theology was created before the renaissance in study of 1st Cent Judaism that resulted from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other early documents. But I don’t think their understanding makes sense now.

Wright is (except by American conservative standards) a conservative scholar. He believes in the Incarnation and Trinity. He is willing to use Paul’s understanding of Jesus’ significance. Some other scholars (e.g. Borg) would see Paul’s interpretation as later, and not necessarily reflecting Jesus’ actual teaching. But if you take that line, you won’t end up with JW belief, because it is based on John and Paul, just an understanding of them that I think is not historically informed. An understanding not based on Wright's commitment to maintain traditional doctrine will reject all understanding of Christ as preexistent. JW’s sometime pick specific arguments from this viewpoint, but that doesn’t work.

 

[Steeno7]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

He was God functioning as a man, and as a man His knowledge would be limited.

 

[Bobinator]

How is Jesus G-d and supposed to know everything when He doesn't know when he is supposed to return for His second coming. This is an argument from Jehovahs Witnesses and I am trying to get an answer for this.

That's the problem with today's doctrine being preached. We've missed what Jesus was trying to teach us through his disciples. Jesus was a man and called himself the son of man. The main difference is that he was born without sin (iniquity). He was restored to the Godhead after his resurrection.

The purpose of his walk was to show that we too can follow after the Spirit and not according to the flesh. That through Him, we can overcome the flesh and the world and be fully reconciled unto God. If we are one with God, then in essence, we would be equal with God.

Phil.2:6 says- "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

The words "being in the form of God" can easily be interpreted as "being Godly", or engaging in God-like behavior. It doesn't say, "being God"or that "he was God". It says "being in the form of God". Interesting way to view this scripture, huh?

Then, If Jesus refers to us as his brothers and sisters, and that he was the first among many to come, then the above scripture should apply to all of us.

Romans 8:29- "For whom he did foreknow, he also did pre-destinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Here's a list of other scriptures (with summary) to consider-

Psalms 8:5- Jesus was made lower than angels.
Heb 2:7 & 9- Jesus made lower than the angels.
Heb. 5:8 – Jesus learned obedience by things he suffered.
James 1:13- God cannot be tempted. Yet, Jesus was tempted in the wilderness.
Matthew 4:1 & Luke 4:2- Jesus was tempted.
Heb. 2:7- Made little lower than angels.
Heb. 2:16- Jesus didn’t take on the nature of angels.

When Jesus was on Earth as a man, it makes perfect sense why he didn't know the date of His second coming. The Father simply didn't tell him. Neither did he tell the angels.

Jesus said something similar along this note when James and John, the sons of Zebedee, asked to sit on Jesus' right hand in Heaven in Mark 10:37. Jesus said it wasn't his decision, but the Fathers. Jesus didn't know what their fates would be, except that James and John would share in his suffering.

 

[Mark51]

Consider reading only the book of Matthew carefully (definitely not inclusive) and reason on the specific scriptures that I have listed. This is only a sampling of scriptures-taken from just one book-that clearly differentiates Jesus as a son (non-Trinity) from God Almighty.

“This is my Son…”-3:17
“…son of God…“ (4:3); “…Jehovah’s mouth…” (4:4); “…son of God…” (4:6); “Jehovah your God…” (4:7); “…Jehovah your God you must worship…”-4:10
“…your Father who is in the heavens.“ (5:16, 45) “…heavenly Father…”-5:48
“…Father who is in the heavens” (6:1); “..pay to your father…” (6:6); “…God your father…” (6:8); “Our father in the heavens…” (6:9); “…heavenly Father…”-6:14, 26, 32
“…your Father who is in the heavens…“-7:11, 21
“…Son of God…“-8:29
“…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (10:32, 33); “…sent me forth.”-10:40
“…Father…“-11:25-27
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“-12:50
“You are really God’s son.“-14:33
“…my heavenly father…“-15:13
“…son of the living God…” (16:16); “…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (16:17); “…come in the glory of his Father…“-16:27
“This is my Son…“-17:5
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“ (18:10, 14); “…my Father in heaven…”(18:19); “…my heavenly Father…”-16:35
‘…my Father…“-20:23
“…your Father, the heavenly one…“ (23:9); “…your Leader…” (23:10); “…he that comes in Jehovah’s name!”-23:39
“…neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”-24:36
“…blessed by my Father…“-25:34
“…in the kingdom of my Father.“ (26:29); “My Father…” (26:39, 42, 53); “By the living God…Christ the Son of God!” (26:63); “You yourself said it…”-26:64
“Certainly this was God’s Son.“-27:54
“All authority has been given me…“-28:18

 

[pshun2404]

IMHO this speaks to a mystery of the trinity....there is only one YHVH (God)....this YHVH IS the Father and this same YHVH IS the Son/Word and this same YHVH IS the Spirit...each the personae have their essential nature (GOD) but also demonstrate UNIQUE roles. For example, only the Father knows when the Son wil return and that is His doing and prerogative, only the Son became incarnate in the flesh and suffered the Cross then rose (physically) from the dead. only the Spirit immerses us (baptizes us) INTO the Son...The Father sends the Son/Word, the Son declares to our heart and glorifies the Father, and the Spirit declares to our heart the Son/Word and glorifies the Son....and so on. None of them ever ceasing to be the one and ONLY DEITY who revealed His name to be YHVH...the Father indwells the Son (He is the Son and the Son in Him), the Son indwells us (and we are in Him),and this is accomplished via the Spirit which not only indwells us but places us in Him...