Matthew 18:6 man is the cause of sin

[Awaken4Christ]

Matthew 18:6

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Logic would dictate that the cause for sin is in the hands of humans.
There are a lot of verses that condemns those who do this or that, but this verse is a
bit different in that it uses the word "causes"

Definition of Cause-

noun- A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.

verb- Make (something) happen: "this disease can cause blindness".

what can cause blindness?....answer disease

what can cause sin....... answer

This leads to a direct refutation of Calvinism whether by contrariness or incompleteness of explaining mans ability to decide.

Calvin's words.

"But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service...."

So if God commands the ungodly to sin then he "causes" them to sin.. or rather, that God would be the cause of sin (which I do not believe as stated in tulip or by Calvin) and yet here Calvin does. He even catches him self and turns "permits" to "commands."

If God caused the little girl to sin in Matthew 18:6 then should God have drowned? I think not.

Since this is an obvious contradiction that means Calvinism or TULIP is one of two things:

1. It is contradictory to how God exercises his sovereignty or
2. Is leaving out important details on the relationship between man and God

For number one I would say there is a possibility that, in the over zealousness to rightly characterize God with the infinite power he truly wields, Calvinism has gotten too specific in describing how God exercises that Power.

For number two I will suggest the possibility that man's will to have faith and God's will to have man have faith could work in harmony. It could be a sort of dual will's. I believe it is an admitted enigma among many Calvinists of how human choice plays its role.

Let me hypothesize for the sake of inquiry we say that The doctrine of Unconditional election is true. But there are Bible verses that clearly state the conditions to be met in order to be saved. Could it be that Conditional and Unconditional election both exist in harmony? This is my problem with Calvinism... it is a theology that colors Sovereignty and God's infinite power. lets say you believe in predestination.. but predestination to unconditional election is a jump.. many see it as the simple progression in Logic. The truth is we are all human and that the Bible is written for the depraved. Therefor it is an impossibility in my opinion to try to describe how God exercises predestination or sovereignty without falling very short. It is like an ant trying to describe how a car works.

 

[sdowney717]

The conditions for salvation of His elect are worked out by God to bring them to Himself. One way or another, ALL THINGS work together for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Scripture here tells us of the progression. And it is like being set in stone, one very fundamental eternal truth which man can not undo.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

The conditions for salvation of His elect are worked out by God to bring them to Himself. One way or another, ALL THINGS work together for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Scripture here tells us of the progression. And it is like being set in stone, one very fundamental eternal truth which man can not undo.

Here's the fundamental truth Jesus gave for salvation -

Luke 10
27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

Jesus told the lawyer he ANSWERED CORRECTLY. Nothing was said of believing this or believing that, nothing was said of only the elect could inherit eternal life, nothing was said of being called, and nothing was said of His death and resurrection.

What the Savior Himself said, was, DO THIS and you will live. Jesus gave the conditions for salvation, and man works them out from himself, and as of himself.

 

[sdowney717]

Here's the fundamental truth Jesus gave for salvation -

Luke 10
27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

Jesus told the lawyer he ANSWERED CORRECTLY. Nothing was said of believing this or believing that, nothing was said of only the elect could inherit eternal life, nothing was said of being called, and nothing was said of His death and resurrection.

What the Savior Himself said, was, DO THIS and you will live. Jesus gave the conditions for salvation, and man works them out from himself, and as of himself.

Of what use then is Jesus saying without Me you can do nothing? John 15.
Or you did not choose ME, I chose you.
Or any of John 17.
Or this
Luke 10

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Jesus says you will KNOW GOD when Jesus wills to reveal Him to you. This knowing is one of saving faith gifted to each of His children and is NOT OF THEMSELVES, being the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. Ephesian 2

Your philosophy says your salvation is up to your response, but this knowing is one of saving faith.

You say
"Jesus gave the conditions for salvation, and man works them out from himself, and as of himself."

God says, He chose us from the beginning to be saved.
2 Thess 2

13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a personal calling and is effective, God's word accomplishes the purposes whereof He sends it.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Of what use then is Jesus saying without Me you can do nothing? John 15.
Or you did not choose ME, I chose you.
Or any of John 17.
Or this
Luke 10

The vilest person alive couldn't live without Jesus. You couldn't draw your next breath without Jesus. Where have I excluded Jesus in what I said?

Jesus says you will KNOW GOD when Jesus wills to reveal Him to you. This knowing is one of saving faith gifted to each of His children and is NOT OF THEMSELVES, being the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. Ephesian 2

And who decides to whom Jesus reveals God? It seems a particular belief system desires to choose to whom Jesus reveals God. As I mentioned earlier, Jesus said nothing about a saving faith to the lawyer. He only mentioned doing something, that is, to love God and our neighbor.

Your philosophy says your salvation is up to your response, but this knowing is one of saving faith.

Actually, it was Jesus who said it was man's response (loving God and our neighbor), by which we receive eternal life. Again, Jesus said absolutely nothing about a saving faith.

You say
"Jesus gave the conditions for salvation, and man works them out from himself, and as of himself."

God says, He chose us from the beginning to be saved.
2 Thess 2

How will one receive eternal life if he/she does not do what the Savior Himself tells us to do to inherit eternal life? Will one go searching for something else, thinking eternal life can be attained some other way?

This is a personal calling and is effective, God's word accomplishes the purposes whereof He sends it.

I say loving God and our neighbor is most effective, for the Savior and Redeemer Himself has spoken this truth.

 

[hedrick]

Please look at the original. The quote in the OP is from the section on Providence. It is saying that God limits Satan and the ungodly, setting a limit on them and directing their evil in particular directions that are consistent with his plan. It is certainly not saying that God caused them to be evil.

Please remember that Calvin believed in compatibilism, under which there were several layers of responsibility, as it were. In the most direct sense, evil people are responsible for what they do. They choose it. But on the next layer, what they do fits into God's plan, and God makes sure that they end up doing what he wants, even though that's not their own intention. I don't think this makes God the cause of evil in any normal English sense of cause.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

The conditions for salvation of His elect are worked out by God to bring them to Himself. One way or another, ALL THINGS work together for the good of those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.



Scripture here tells us of the progression. And it is like being set in stone, one very fundamental eternal truth which man can not undo.

What is said there cant be undone i agree, but what is said there should it be added too? biblical inference is a difficult thing. You can read those passages over and over but that still doesn't give you unconditional election for example. I am not arguing about the stone, just the color it is being painted.

All those verses it seems to me Calvinism adds just a little bit more to it as if it was the whole truth instead of part of the truth. If mans will were so disregarded, why would there be instructions or conditions to be met by men. And then the Bible says the results if those conditions aren't met.

Calvinists love the potters clay analogy. Well let me ask you this. If your the pot, which hand did the potter use to form your curves? You would try to answer but how could you know since your the pot. Did he let this part drip where it wanted to drip etc etc.

How does a drawing know how its been drawn. Even if its told its predestined through revelation, should the drawing get descriptive and say "YES the artist used a number 2 pencil."

You guys really don't consider the possibilities in between. You think its black or white, Armenian or Calvinist. If you can only conceive of 3 or 4 dimensions, what makes you think you can conceive how God
exercises his sovereignty. But you'll say something to the effect that God is not an agent of confusion. God hasn't revealed everything to you, that's what you need to understand. The Gospel isn't some highly intellectual exercise. The Gospel was given to humans: farmers, the blind, the def, the tax man, the garbage man, the weak. To preach God's sovereignty is important, but I have to wonder if the 5 doctrines of Calvinism is not Gospel, but instead a theory.

Does this sound like Good news to you?

For God So Loved the World That he Gave his Only Begotten son, that whosoever God elected and predestined to believe, they would not perish, but have everlasting life.
I can't see anyone preaching like that.

Remember Synergism doesn't have to be co-equal; God's in the big seat and your in the little tiny seat.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 18:6

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Logic would dictate that the cause for sin is in the hands of humans.
There are a lot of verses that condemns those who do this or that, but this verse is a
bit different in that it uses the word "causes"

Definition of Cause-

noun- A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.

verb- Make (something) happen: "this disease can cause blindness".

what can cause blindness?....answer disease

what can cause sin....... answer

This leads to a direct refutation of Calvinism whether by contrariness or incompleteness of explaining mans ability to decide.

Calvin's words.

"But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service...."

So if God commands the ungodly to sin then he "causes" them to sin.. or rather, that God would be the cause of sin (which I do not believe as stated in tulip or by Calvin) and yet here Calvin does. He even catches him self and turns "permits" to "commands."

If God caused the little girl to sin in Matthew 18:6 then should God have drowned? I think not.

Since this is an obvious contradiction that means Calvinism or TULIP is one of two things:

1. It is contradictory to how God exercises his sovereignty or
2. Is leaving out important details on the relationship between man and God

For number one I would say there is a possibility that, in the over zealousness to rightly characterize God with the infinite power he truly wields, Calvinism has gotten too specific in describing how God exercises that Power.

For number two I will suggest the possibility that man's will to have faith and God's will to have man have faith could work in harmony. It could be a sort of dual will's. I believe it is an admitted enigma among many Calvinists of how human choice plays its role.

Let me hypothesize for the sake of inquiry we say that The doctrine of Unconditional election is true. But there are Bible verses that clearly state the conditions to be met in order to be saved. Could it be that Conditional and Unconditional election both exist in harmony? This is my problem with Calvinism... it is a theology that colors Sovereignty and God's infinite power. lets say you believe in predestination.. but predestination to unconditional election is a jump.. many see it as the simple progression in Logic. The truth is we are all human and that the Bible is written for the depraved. Therefor it is an impossibility in my opinion to try to describe how God exercises predestination or sovereignty without falling very short. It is like an ant trying to describe how a car works.

Where are the verses that clearly state the conditions to be met to be born again?