[Matthew 17:20] [Mark 11:22-26] Faith that move Mountains.

[CCHIPSS]

One passages that critics often use against the bible is Mark 11:22-24 and Matthew 17:20. Here Jesus "seems" to have said that all things are possible to anyone that have absolute faith.

The problem is we know it doesn't work like that at face value. For example we can pray for a billion dollars. Even if we can go find the most faithful Christian on earth to pray for a billion dollars and they (most likely) still won't get it.

And I am certain no one is more faithful to God than Jesus. But even Jesus himself had an unanswered prayer, when he asked not to be crucified to take up the sin of the whole world. (Luke 22:42)

It seems here Jesus made an unfulfilled promise. But did he? It is important for us to look at both passages in context. Read the whole Matthew 17 and Mark 11.

Summary:

In Matthew 17 Jesus was transfigured. His disciples saw him in his glory. And then later his disciple weren't able to cast out a demon. Jesus cast it out instead. When asked Jesus then said to his disciples "You forgot to fast and pray (Mark 9:29). If you had stronger faith, even mountains will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

(Background: By this point the disciples has cast out many demons. So they evidently started feeling powerful and proud. Now they are brave enough to face demons without fasting and praying. That's why they forgot to pray to God and instead tried to face demons alone. This sounds crazy to us but that's what they did in their pride. )

Then in Mark 11 Jesus was heading into Jerusalem. He went to a fig tree that was in leaves, indicating that it should have some fruit (because the fruit comes before the leaves on figs). But it turns out the fig tree had no fruit, so Jesus cursed it. Jesus then went into the temple in Jerusalem and chased out all the money changers and merchants. He said they turned a house of prayer for all nations into a den of robbers. Later they walked by the same fig tree and it has withered. Peter pointed this out and Jesus told him to have faith. If one pray with faith they can move the mountain. And forgive others so God will also forgive them.

Since Jesus repeat this (faith can move mountains) twice in two different situations, he clearly meant what he said. But what does he actually meant?

My take:

1) Do not face evil alone

In Matthew 17, Jesus was point out that we cannot face evil without Him. So do not forget to pray and fast when we face evil. Do not forget God, but instead for strong faith in Him.

This does not mean we will stop all sin. Faith needs to be developed. So is the resistance against sin. And so is the discernment on what is good and what is evil. But continue to pray in faith and evil will not overcome us. Jesus is our master, not evil, even when we do sin. Our eternal life will be prove that evil will not overcome us.

2) How to avoid becoming a beautiful fig tree without fruit, or a temple that is a den of robbers.

The figure tree in leaves were beautiful on the outside and looks promising to have fruit. But it turns out empty of fruit. This is a parallel to the Temple in Jerusalem. It looks holy and righteous on the outside, but it was empty of God and was only a den of robbers. So Jesus will curse the temple just as he cursed the fig tree. The Temple in Jerusalem was later destroyed by Romans in 70 AD, just as Jesus predicted in Matthew 24:1-2.

When I first read what Peter said, it seems he was just pointing out the fact that the fig tree is now withered. But what Peter actually indicated was a great fear. Up to this point the disciples have mostly saw positive miracles from Jesus. The sick was healed. The blind can see. etc. This is one of the only times where Jesus actually cursed something out of anger. And that thing (a fig tree) dies the next day.

We often only remembers the love and mercy of God, but we forgot how powerful God is. I believe at this point Peter realize just how powerful Jesus is (that Jesus only need to say one word to end a life) and so Peter cried out in fear.

Peter was probably thinking "How do I not make Jesus angry? How do I not end up dead like this fruitless fig tree?" And perhaps even "How do I not end up destroyed like the temple of robbers in Jerusalem?"

Jesus immediately comforts him. He told him the key to avoid being dead like this fruitless fig tree is to have faith in God and pray.

Firstly fruits comes from God. Ask God in faith for any fruit you need. Even if the fruit is hard to get, almost like throwing a mountain into the ocean, pray in faith and God will give it to you.

Secondly if you want God to forgive you, forgive others. But if you do not forgive others, neither will God forgive you.

So then what are these fruits that we should pray for? It certainly isn't a billion dollars! My take:

1) Forgiveness - This is one of the hardest fruit to get. Some people have wronged us in terrible ways. But pray to God in faith, and even a mountain can be cast into the sea. Forgiving your enemies is probably the most important fruit, since Jesus himself directly mention this here.

2) Food for the hungry - This is directly related to the fruitless fig tree. It is not easy to donate, volunteer and serve the poor in our busy lives. But Jesus promised us that it will be worth it. (Matthew 25:31-46) If you struggle with this pray to God in faith.

3) Love - Love is the most important commandant (Matthew 22:34-41). As described in 1 Corinthians 13. Pray for all characteristics of love. Especially pray for the ability to love those that you find very very hard to love. (Matthew 5:43-48) Also love yourself today and do not idolize that future version of yourself.

4) Fruits of the spirit - Grow your spiritual fruits in faith and prayer. (Galatians 5:13-25.) Do this so you can better love your neighbor as yourself.

5) Remember God - It is so easy for us to forget God in our busy lives. So we go and face evil (and other challenges) alone. We rely on our own strengths. Pray that we will remember God in all situations.

 

[dysert]

Well, that's all pretty interesting (it must have been for me to read the whole thing!), but the problem is, the "problem" passages are really not addressed at all. Why has no one ever moved a mountain? Is it because no one has ever had enough faith, or was Jesus merely using hyperbole to make a point? To be honest, these passages have always bothered me (I'm basically a literalist), so I hope this thread gets some traction.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Well, that's all pretty interesting (it must have been for me to read the whole thing!), but the problem is, the "problem" passages are really not addressed at all. Why has no one ever moved a mountain? Is it because no one has ever had enough faith, or was Jesus merely using hyperbole to make a point? To be honest, these passages have always bothered me (I'm basically a literalist), so I hope this thread gets some traction.

I believe these two passages (moving mountain, throwing mountain into the sea) are not directly saying anything is possible. It is in the wider context of "fruits of a Christian" being possible for all who believes in Jesus.

For example an alcoholic no longer drinks (self-control). A rude person is now gentle. etc. These life changes are indeed miracles. They are the mountains that these 2 passages was talking about.

We know that no matter how much faith we have, mountains won't actually be thrown into the ocean. And we will (most likely) not get a billion dollars. Even Jesus himself have an unanswered prayers in Luke 22:42. And no one is more faithful to God than Jesus.

And that's good because if it works like that, we can actually use faith to make God do some dangerous things. For example why not trying jumping off a building and have faith that God will save the jumper somehow? That would be testing God, which is evil. (Matthew 4:6-7) Sometimes unanswered prayers are for our own good.

 

[chapmic]

I believe mountains can be moved with faith, but it still has to be according to the Lord's will. Jesus was talking about when our faith aligns with his will to advance the kingdom of God we can move mountains. So we don't just pray to move mountains or for a billions of dollars because we want it for ourselves, our prayers should align with God's perfect will to bear good fruit. Also I disagree with Jesus's prayer being "unanswered"he prayed, take this away from me if your will allows it. It showed that he still wanted to submit the God's will even if it meant he had to endure great trials. So our faith is powerful and miracles can be done if we acting according to the Lord's will and not just ask to prove that we have spiritual power.

 

[Greg J.]

When I struggle to understand a verse and then eventually the Lord reveals it to me (in terms of my personal experiences, which is the only way we can understand anything deeply), I always realize that he meant exactly what he said and I can't think of a way to improve upon it.

Read these verses and (1) accept that he meant what he said, the way he said it, in context, and (2) if you have a problem with it, it's a problem at this end, not at God's end.

One of the difficulties with these kinds of verses usually has to do with one's understanding of what faith is. It certainly is not: God will give me whatever I ask for on my timetable. The most obvious qualifier is that it must not be contrary to the Lord's will (or plan). Another qualifier is that it must not be bad for me. (Do you even know what is good or bad for you?)

Make every effort to stop objectifying faith. Faith is not a thing—something you seek, it is a word that refers to how well you know and trust God. If you want greater faith, stop thinking about faith, and start thinking about, and interacting with, God more. For this to bear fruit, you will need to be obedient in everything he commanded, otherwise how is your relationship with him going to grow when you aren't doing what he already commanded?

 

[Achilles6129]

I think that he's saying that if you have faith then you'll be able to perform a deed of miraculous power. I also think that these passages are deeply troubling for Christianity down throughout the ages.

 

[Greg J.]

Jesus meant exactly what he said. The problem is that people through the ages have equated "I really, really want something" + "I know God loves me" into "God will do a miracle for me, because he loves me." The kind of faith that reveals God's miraculous powers on earth has nothing to do with those things.

People think they trust God "a lot" when they do not. One ought to examine himself. What have you painfully lost today so that you may stay faithful to God? Jesus said we are evil. (Matthew 7:11, Luke 11:13) Sin blinds and corrupts completely. Nothing tainted with sin can be saved. You won't find God untainting the sin of anything in Scripture. It can only be destroyed.

To be spiritually mature enough to do miracles (which equivalently means one is more intimate with God than your spouse of 20 years, for example), then he or she will live in the refiner's blazing furnace for 15+ years, and the refiner's fire for many others. That person will wish he was dead; he will indeed go through a process that feels like death; he will be familiar with suffering like it is an old shoe (see Isaiah 53:3). You will know what death feels like. It will completely destroy you.

We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. (bold mine, 2 Corinthians 1:8-9, 1984 NIV)

Paul is talking about an facet of experiences that reveal that apart from God we can do nothing. (John 15:5) We can't even lift a spoon of food to our mouths without God's help. But "believing" that and knowing it through experience are completely different things. We do not really spiritually know anything unless we experience it. Spiritual wisdom is acquired only through many experiences, not reading about it or "understanding" it.

God can decide to do miracles any time he wants, even through a donkey, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about what it takes to be the kind of man of God that does miracles. You really do need to take up your cross daily. And if that weren't impossible enough, one would probably need the support of a similarly believing and devoted community.

I've typed out some pearls. Jesus said, Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me. (Matthew 11:6, 1984 NIV; cf. Luke 7:23)

 

[keltoi]

Can you imagine the tectonic upheaval that would occur if we moved 1 mount let alone more than 1?
Jesus was quite straight with what he said, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. He knew that humans don't have that much faith but we have barely enough to be saved from ourselves through his sacrifice and God's love.

 

[Razare]

Mark 11:23-24 and Matthew 17:20 do work at face value... subject to all the other rules of scripture.

Christ's prayer in the garden was not answered (edit: technically, it was answered because he was asking, not commanding; see below) because it was not God's will. Mark 11:23-24 will only ever work according to God's will.

If those verses fail, it is because of the following reasons:

- YOUR unbelief.
- It wasn't God's will, and you fail to know what God's will is.

The verse works 100% of the time, though. I've been healed of several things according to it, plus many other miracles.

But sometimes I will use it, and it wont work. But then I look for where my unbelief is and I see it as God points it out. And my unbelief causes the commanding word sent forth from my mouth to fail.

Mark 11:23 never, ever works by asking. It says to ask right in verse 24 but after you ask, you have to do what verse 23 says, and COMMAND THE MOUNTAIN TO MOVE. Asking is the first step. What is God's will? Then when you know God's will, you can command the mountain to move.

Christ in the garden was asking what God's will was. Christ never commanded to the mountain of his suffering to move, because it would have been rebelling against God.

So Asking and Commanding are two different actions, with different intents. And don't bother asking if you know scripture already gives you authority to do something... that would be unbelief. Asking is for when you don't know what the word says. That's when you pray for wisdom and inquire of God as to what to do.

---------------------

Now as to address the skepticism. "Why don't I see everyone doing this and causing all manner of miracles?"

- The bigger you believe, the bigger the opposition that comes at you. Because I am not God, if I try to use these verses in a way that goes way way beyond where my faith is at, for one, I'm probably not following God's will. For two, I am also probably going to fail due to persecutions, which was one of the things that kills God's word from happening in our life when we succumb to persecution. (Matthew 13:5) You wont see the victory according to these verses, unless you've overcome the opposition.

- Societal unbelief prevents them from seeing the miracles that do happen every day according to Mark 11:23-24. According to Mark 8:25-26 when people are healed, they run the risk of being persecuted for their healing, or losing their healing, so to protect this man from the unbelief of his village, he ordered him to leave his lifelong home and never return to it. In my personal life, some of my healings did not manifest until I left my parent's home, and stop living under their unbelief. Their unbelief impeded my healing a great deal. Likewise, Christ himself could not do miracles where there was unbelief: Matthew 13:58 If unbelief stops a perfect ministry under Christ, it certainly stops flawed ministers who use those same verses to command mountains to move.

And so when I tell people God healed me and if I point them to Mark 11:23-24 they will think I'm a liar. They will think I must be delusional. They will scoff. They will doubt. They will not believe and they will not agree, and they certainly will not tell anyone else what I tell them.

Therefore, this is the reason you don't hear about miracles much according to Mark 11:23-24. The person who gets the miracle, has trouble telling anyone who doesn't already believe Mark 11:23-24 like we do. Therefore, to see the miracles of Mark 11:23-24, you have to believe it. Until then, you're a scoffer, and you live in a spiritual bubble that walls God out of this area of your life, and you will not see his will come to pass.

Done.

 

[dysert]

Now as to address the skepticism. "Why don't I see everyone doing this and causing all manner of miracles?"

My skepticism is, why haven't I seen *anyone* ever move a mountain? I don't think you can take the passage at face value, but I still don't know the answer.

 

[Razare]

My skepticism is, why haven't I seen *anyone* ever move a mountain? I don't think you can take the passage at face value, but I still don't know the answer.

Have you ever heard of symbolism? A mountain is a problem in your life. Christ was also simply referencing Isaiah when he said that. Isaiah 41:15

Christ used "mountain" because it was a really, really big thing seemingly impossible to move.

The problem with trying to move literal mountains is not God's power nor those verses. The problem is, do you genuinely want to move a mountain out of your heart for a legitimate good, wholesome reason born out of love? No.

And even if you did, when people come up and say you're an idiot for trying to do that, you'd have to stand your ground. And then if a mob is roused by satan to kill you, you'd likewise have to stand your ground.

When I move a mountain (symbolic mountain) according to those verses, I have to be willing to die over it. Being willing to die over some things, we're not willing to do until we get our faith built up.

 

[dysert]

Have you ever heard of symbolism? A mountain is a problem in your life. Christ was also simply referencing Isaiah when he said that. Isaiah 41:15

Christ used "mountain" because it was a really, really big thing seemingly impossible to move.

The problem with trying to move literal mountains is not God's power nor those verses. The problem is, do you genuinely want to move a mountain out of your heart for a legitimate good, wholesome reason born out of love? No.

And even if you did, when people come up and say you're an idiot for trying to do that, you'd have to stand your ground. And then if a mob is roused by satan to kill you, you'd likewise have to stand your ground.

When I move a mountain (symbolic mountain) according to those verses, I have to be willing to die over it. Being willing to die over some things, we're not willing to do until we get our faith built up.

Yes, I have heard of symbolism, but I am reluctant to apply symbolism to everything that I don't understand unless the symbol is defined somewhere in Scripture. In this case, the word for "mountain" is the Gr. oros and is used 65 times in the NT. In every occurrence, it's talking about a literal mountain with possibly one exception (its use in Revelation). And if "mountain" is symbolic, there's no definition for this supposed symbol that I know of. For you to say it's symbolic for "problem" is just an opinion and is not backed up by Scripture.

 

[Commander]

I can do all thing through Christ which strengthens me( Philippians 4:13). I have moved my mountain of sin, and can show you how it was made possible. With God all things are possible, for He is the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[Commander]

The critics do not realize that what they or anyone ask for may not be the will of God. When Jesus asked for the cup to passed from him, it was not the will of God for it to be passed. Jesus was the Messiah, the Saviour of all men, the atonement(payment) for all sin. In the Lord's prayer we are told that not our will but thy(God's)will be done. God's will was for Jesus to go to the cross, for that is where he went. The verse of Hebrews 10:9-10 states " Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first(the old testament), that he may establish the second(the new testament-which can be found in Hebrews 8:10-13). By the which will(of God) we are sanctified(made Holy)through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all(everyone).

 

[Salem]

The critics do not realize that what they or anyone ask for may not be the will of God. When Jesus ask for the cup to passed from him, it was not the will of God for it to be passed. Jesus was the Messiah, the Saviour of all men, the atonement(payment) for all sin. In the Lord's prayer we are told that not our will but thy(God's)will be done. God's will was for Jesus to go to the cross. The verse of Hebrews 10:9-10 states " Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first(the old testament), that he may establish the second(the new testament-which can be found in Hebrews 8:10-13). By the which will(of God) we are sanctified(made Holy)through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all(everyone).

Being in the will of God is a caveat that also comes to mind with me. I can't think of any instance where it would serve the kingdom to be hurling mountains, and our Lord did teach in parables and strong examples. The Lord also said you can't be His disciple, if you don't hate your own family, Luke 14:26. It's a foregone conclusion the Lord is not teaching hate, rather is drawing a strong comparison to how much greater our love for God should be. If you took this literally, just lifted the verse of out context of the whole Bible, you could conclude you'd better start hating everybody around you. How violently unChristian that would be. While also believing in literal interpretation, the symbolic and the figure of speech must also be considered, when there would be contradiction, otherwise. Our Lord was colorful in speech, also spoke of people having a beam in their eye, Matthew 7:3, which, of course, was physically absurd, but spoke well to huge hypocrisy, just as a mountain speaks to huge things, the most huge work that of enlarging the kingdom of God, by preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and people being saved.

 

[Salem]

I can do all thing through Christ which strengthens me( Philippians 4:13). I have moved my mountain of sin, and can show you how it was made possible. With God all things are possible, for He is the living God who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(1 Timothy 4:10).

And how much more than moving a dead mountain, if we have been God's instruments in the miracle of the salvation of others? If we plopped a mountain down somewhere else, so what, in terms of eternal consequences or to the glory of the eternal kingdom of God? The greatest work is His salvation and for one to be born again, to eternal life. I imagine a mountain could erode to sand over long enough time, all the while everybody forgetting it was ever moved, in the first place.

 

[Commander]

And how much more than moving a dead mountain, if we have been God's instruments in the miracle of the salvation of others? If we plopped a mountain down somewhere else, so what, in terms of eternal consequences or to the glory of the eternal kingdom of God? The greatest work is His salvation and for one to be born again, to eternal life. I imagine a mountain could erode to sand over long enough time, all the while everybody forgetting it was ever moved, in the first place.

Or the mountain was never even there.

 

[Salem]

Or the mountain was never even there.

You mean like the mountain being unbelief, never really an obstacle that was there, but an obstacle due to our limited faith? Even if that isn't what you meant, an interesting thought as a result, isn't it? Something a bit more freaky is how God can manipulate those things we see as fixed, immutable, material objects, could, by His mere word, tell that mountain to go flat, and it would. Things are not exactly what we see, like that water we're certain is H2O in our times turned into wine, and instantly, of a much more complex chemical makeup. Now, just where did all those other atoms come from, and how, from nowhere?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Poof! There went the whole galactic neighborhood, probably in a wink.

 

[Achilles6129]

Christ was clearly referring to miraculous power here, and there are several other statements in the NT which indicate the same.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Christ was clearly referring to miraculous power here, and there are several other statements in the NT which indicate the same.

I would say it is a miracle that a formal ruthless criminal who, after believing in Jesus, turn his life 180 degree around. The critics will say that he was just brainwashed and misguided. However we know that no one can decide to follow God unless the Holy Spirit works in them. God chose his followers.