Matt 25 Judgment of the Nations

[mikesw]

matt 25 has in it:
25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. cj(25,32); 25:32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (www.ebible.org)

I have wondered for awhile why nations are mentioned here rather than individual souls. This is the main question "Why are nations mentioned rather than individual souls?"

I think this may be a scripture that addresses one of the last things to occur before believers inherit the Kingdom of God.

Also related to the main question there are some possibly related questions?
1. Are there any scriptures that address judgment of individuals in general? And do any of these speak of an eternal judgment?
2. Are the nations treated distinctly from the citizens? Is it the ruling powers that are being judged or is it the cultural moral choices of the people at large?

Answers in accord with my mindset (or interpretation) would be more preferable here than having arguments about secondary points related to this question.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hi Mike, did my post in that "other" thread help???

 

[visionary]

Entire nations were called on the carpet...Pharoah and Egypt, Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar...and on and on goes the list. When the whole nation is corrupt, then is condemned "el lay mass". Sodom and Gomorrah, which Abraham tried to understand also how if there may be some righteous folks still in there what is God going to do "destroy it and the righteous too?" As you can see from the rest of the story the righteous were called out, before the destruction or in Pharoah's case, the righteous were preserved in the midst of destruction but were also called out.

 

[mikesw]

I'll have to get more familiar with Zechariah. But I'm trying to understand why the passage transitions into judgment of nations at this moment. And I'm trying to understand the relationship between our concepts of judgment of individuals in contrast to (or in relationship with) the judgment of nations.

Zechariah may have some of the answers I need, but right now your sequence doesn't make sense with what I understand.
The eternal judgment of nations may not actually condemn any souls to such eternal judgment. This scripture seems to say much if we just can understand all that is being said.

(I just haven't heard anything yet that makes this scripture seem to fully fit.)

 

[Pilgrim 33]

The Matthew 25 passage containing the phrase, "shall be gathered all nations" contains no resurrection and occurs on earth involving the then living.

As such, this particular event is not the same as the Revelation 20 passage of a first resurrection judgment.

One, on earth, involves those living humans; the other, takes place in the spirit world.

The former, the 'then living' are adjudged for 'their' treatment of Israel following the Great (Jewish) Tribulation; the latter delineates between which of the saved are resurrected when.

As to "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." we are told not to worry about these brethren, "...concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope" for these (ie the saved and, of which, are the only ones ever spoken of as being asleep) have hope for resurrected life which is only possible through Christ Jesus for those in Him.
Who the first class are judging with respect to the usage of "judgment" and "was given" bespeaks not of the authority of judging, but the bestowal of rewards or, more rightly put, recompense, contained in the sentencing itself.

Luke 14:13-14, "But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."

Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."

2 Thessalonians 1:6, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

Hebrews 10:30, "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

As to 'who' are His people, I think, we can agree does not include the unsaved thus we see a judgment of his people; where does this scenario fit in with the above two judgments? The entire Revelation 20 scene under discussion is not one of retributional judgment but rather one of rewards and prizes, who gets resurrected first and gets to judge and who gets to be resurrected later. The phrase, "to whom much is given" come to mind in this context. Do the martyrs of the first resurrection also determine rewards of the "rest of the dead that lived not until"?

As to the "then living": there will be those, who, as a result of the tribulation, will be brought to Christ which also includes Jews, however, these saved will be after the parousia for the martyrs who, by then, would already be resurrected. What happens to those finally left who are alive at this on-earth judgment at end of the tribulation? I'm of the opinion these will be destroyed along with everything else including, death and hell, that will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Will the Lake of Fire be large enough for the old heavens and earth to be thrown into; will it be large enough to encompass that much? Or will the Lake of Fire just be "all hell breaking lose"?

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

With respect to the Revelation 20:12-15 passage speaking of the dead who stand before God 1) cannot be those saved and 2) the dead cannot be resurrected to life apart from Jesus and there is no reference to their being alive at that time and, considering the extreme allegorical nature of the book itself, I do not see how a literal interpretation of this passage can be assumed but, rather, more on the order of "all things shall be made known"...

1 Corinthians 4:5, "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

I'm of the opinion, at this point, that the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust refers not to saved and unsaved but refers to the awarding of rewards upon the saved based on how they utilized their Godly gifts, "...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required...".

Verse References

MT 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
MT 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
REV 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Luke 14:13-14, "But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."
2 Thessalonians 1:6, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"
Hebrews 10:30, "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

1THESS 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1THESS 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10,"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

REV 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
REV 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
REV 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

LK 12:45-49 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

 

[In Christ Forever]

25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. cj(25,32); 25:32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (www.ebible.org)
Jeremiah mentions bringing all the family of the kingdoms of the north and setting up "Thrones" against Jerusalem. Israel was seperated into 2 nations consisting of Israel[north] and Judah[south]Revelation shows God using an army of "10 kings" to come against a "harlot", much like He used the King of Babylon as his servant to destroy Jerusalem in the OT. This is discussed in the christian "unorthodox" and "eschatology" forums if you are interested. God bless.


Jeremi 1:14 Then the LORD said to me: "Out of the north calamity shall break forth On all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For behold,I am calling All the families of the kingdoms of the north[notice the "10 kings" in revelation?]," says the LORD; "They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah[HARLOT]. 16 I will utter My judgments Against them concerning all their wickedness, Because they have forsaken Me,

reve 17:16 "And the ten horns/kings/North which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

(quote converted to KJV)

Jeremiah 1:14-16, "Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the LORD; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah. And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands."

I believe that was fulfilled in Jeremiah 39:3

Jeremiah 39:1-3, "In the ninth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the tenth month, came Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon and all his army against Jerusalem, and they besieged it. And in the eleventh year of Zedekiah, in the fourth month, the ninth day of the month, the city was broken up. And all the princes of the king of Babylon came in, and sat in the middle gate, even Nergalsharezer, Samgarnebo, Sarsechim, Rabsaris, Nergalsharezer, Rabmag, with all the residue of the princes of the king of Babylon."

 

[Pilgrim 33]

(quote converted to KJV)

Revelation 17:16-18, "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her

her: further spoken of here:

Jeremiah 50:29-32, "Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel. Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD. Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee. And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him."

desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

I believe this is all referring to Babylon.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

(quote converted to KJV)

Jeremiah 3:8, "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

Jeremiah 3:9-12, "And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD. And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever."

toward the north refers (not to Babylon but), in this instance, to the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

 

[william jay schroeder]

i believe this just referes to all the races of people

 

[Pilgrim 33]

i believe this just referes to all the races of people

A couple of thoughts on that: If God were to, for example, punish the U.S. would He say the "nation of the U.S" or would only certain races be punished, afterall, the U.S. is made of many races?

God didn't say races, He said nations, and nations and races are not the same.

Then, again, if He were to bless, say, the oriental race, would this not also include all of that race from that moment on and including all those into whatsoever "nation" they migrated to at any time in history throughout the end of time?

That's just what He did with the Jews, many times with many blessings and many promises, all leading to the same place.

The coming Judgment of Nations is a consistent theme throughout Hebrew thought, and of the @ 336 instances of the word "nations" in the Old and New Testaments all inherently carry prophetic blessings and curses for Israel as well as for the nations. Some are now fulfilled, some are not.

And, no, this is not a Christian happening.

 

[mikesw]

Part of the oddity of this scripture on judgment of nations is that these nations are getting an eternal judgment.

This is one of few scriptures, especially within the gospels, talking about eternal punishment and it doesn't even apply to individual souls but unto nations.
How does a nation get judged eternally? And if people are included in this specified description of judgment, does that mean that there are no believers in those nations?

It seems that people are saved on an individual basis. This scripture puts a twist on that concept -- or the meaning of this scripture is still unclear.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Part of the oddity of this scripture on judgment of nations is that these nations are getting an eternal judgment.

This is one of few scriptures, especially within the gospels, talking about eternal punishment and it doesn't even apply to individual souls but unto nations.
How does a nation get judged eternally? And if people are included in this specified description of judgment, does that mean that there are no believers in those nations?

It seems that people are saved on an individual basis. This scripture puts a twist on that concept -- or the meaning of this scripture is still unclear.

Yes, though it is not a judgment in the sense we normally think of as, for example, in front of a county judge with the authority to dispense punishment for some infraction; rather, 'judgment', as used here, speaks, not of the authority of judging, but the bestowal of rewards or, more rightly put with the words used by Scripture, recompense, contained in the sentencing itself; iow, the passing out of rewards. This is a prophecy TO the Jews but FOR the Gentile nations and it is based upon their treatment of the Jews. The Judgment of Nations is spoken throughtout the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments and, of the 330 (@) times the word "nations" is used (guessing now) about 90% has to do with God's promises to Israel (not Christendom) about this one upcoming event. I can't help but not see Hitler and his forces being amongst the Nations that will be in the new creation, and if i understand prophecy sufficient in this regard, then the nation of Germany may not be there either. But, and regardless, i have no dount there will be many Germans throughout history who will be "in Christ". Big difference here in this between Nations and individuals. The Matthew 25 passage is not the resurrection judgment of Rev 20; in fact, Matt 25 contains no resurrection at all, this is an end time event on earth in the then here and now and takes place with (what is left of) live people on earth. I'll pause here and turn it over to you, Mike.