MATT 24 LUKE 17 "ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT" DISCUSSION

[Ken Rank]

I don't have a belief. I have what the scriptures present that counters beliefs. Noah was the one taken/accepted not the one left/rejected. All the examples Christ gave about what happens when he returns shows the first ones to be taken and saved, and the last or rejected ones to be left for judgment.

Again, we don't have to agree. But you have a world full of people and when all the water settles, who is left to repopulate the planet? Noah and his family. Who isn't there anymore? All the sinners, they were taken by the waters. When God poured His wrath out on Sodom, and when the fires ceased and the dust settled, who was left still walking the earth? Lot... and who wasn't, who wasn't there anymore? The inhabitants of Sodom.

Noach wasn't "taken into the ark," you are using that word to defend your position. He walked into it on his own free will. Lot walked out of Sodom, he wasn't taken. They both made choices and Hebrews 11 clearly shows that Noach made a choice in faith. Those that died were taken, were killed by the wrath that was poured out. When it was over they were GONE and Noach and Lot were not, they remained behind. We have to stop reading the bible through a billion dollar rapture movie/book paradigm!

In the NT when those who are "taken" are specifically said to be the dead bodies being eaten by scavenger birds. then your conclusion has hole, respectfully. And when the tares are taken first and burned and wheat is left there to be gathered after the tares are taken, you conclusion has a hole, respectfully.

So we don't agree... it really isn't a big deal, this is not an issue that determines whether or not we belong in the family of God.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[ewq1938]

Noach wasn't "taken into the ark," you are using that word to defend your position. He walked into it on his own free will.

No, it was all orchestrated by God. Noah was taken onto the Ark, all were. They were taken into an Ark of protection. The story of Lot is exactly the same events and chronology. He was taken to a place of safety by angels, also orchestrated by God. Both of them represent the one taken. The one left or rejected was the people outside of the Ark, the people left in Sodom. Both were left to face a deadly judgment.

Lot walked out of Sodom, he wasn't taken.

False.

Gen 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Sending Lot somewhere is the same as taking him somewhere. God sent angels to accomplish this.

In the NT when those who are "taken" are specifically said to be the dead bodies being eaten by scavenger birds.

Nope. They are taken to where those bodies will be. It does not say people taken there are the dead bodies.

then your conclusion has hole, respectfully. And when the tares are taken first and burned and wheat is left there to be gathered after the tares are taken, you conclusion has a hole, respectfully.

I already corrected your understanding of the timeframe of the tares and I corrected your error on the incorrect chronology of the one left happening first and the one taken happening after. It is always the one taken first, then the one left being killed or punished. It is in that order in all the examples Christ gave on what happens when he returns.


Who was TAKEN into the Ark?
Who was LEFT outside the Ark?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean to accept as a companion and does NOT mean to reject and leave to die?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi means to reject and leave someone to die and does NOT mean to accept as a companion?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean you survive?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean you do not survive?

So we don't agree... it really isn't a big deal, this is not an issue that determines whether or not we belong in the family of God.

Correct.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What does Jesus mean by "one taken, one left". Are the ones left "the bodies" and the other taken "captives"?

He tells you. It is like the days of Noah. Who was taken, those who rejected God. Who stayed behind? Noah and members of his family. Not the version of the futurest.

 

[ewq1938]

Who stayed behind? Noah and members of his family.

No, they were taken far away to a new place. The ones that stayed behind, were the ones that drowned. Same with the story of Lot. The ones that lived went away from Sodom. The ones that stayed behind were the ones killed. Even Lot's wife look behind back at the city and turned into salt.

Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

No, they were taken far away to a new place. The ones that stayed behind, were the ones that drowned. Same with the story of Lot. The ones that lived went away from Sodom. The ones that stayed behind were the ones killed. Even Lot's wife look behind back at the city and turned into salt.

Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Not how I see it.

“For the coming of the son of man will be just like it was in the days of Noah— just like in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the Ark—and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away ” (Matt 24:37–39)
Blessings

 

[ewq1938]

Not how I see it.

In the parable of the ten virgins, who was taken away and who stayed behind?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In the parable of the ten virgins, who was taken away and who stayed behind?

I guess you don't want to leave it at what Christ said about the days of Noah as compared to the last day.
Blessings

 

[ewq1938]

I guess you don't want to leave it at what Christ said about the days of Noah as compared to the last day.
Blessings

it's the same thing in that story as with the story of Lot. The one taken is Noah and Lot, the one left is the drowned and burned.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

 

[Maria Billingsley]

it's the same thing in that story as with the story of Lot. The one taken is Noah and Lot, the one left is the drowned and burned.

Where did you learn this teaching? Hal Lindsey?

 

[ewq1938]

Where did you learn this teaching? Hal Lindsey?

No I learned it from the bible. I am post-trib anyways. I have also never listened to a single sermon this Lindsey guy has taught but I know he is pre-trib.

 

[Blade]

You know.. I read your post.. not once did I think your wrong and I am right.. I lol had to look up a word you posted
"In the fanciful world of Pre-Trib dispensationalist theology," Whats the meaning of "fanciful"...why did you choose that word to describe what how other believe?

Matt 24..who asked Jesus questions? Christians? The Church? No.. Jewish people did.. and to Jewish people He answered.


In my searching I found this old Jewish wedding where he pays a price for her and then he goes back to his fathers house to make them a place to live. She stays behind getting ready. She has no clue when he is coming back so she has to always be watching."Although the bride knew to expect her groom after about a year, she did not know the exact day or hour. He could come earlier. It was the father of the groom who gave final approval for him to return to collect his bride." "For that reason, the bride kept her oil lamps ready at all times, just in case the groom came in the night, sounding the shofar (ram’s horn) to lead the bridal procession to the home he had prepared for her." "At this time, the groom, with much noise, fanfare and romance, carried the bride home. Once again, the bride and groom would enter the huppah, recite a blessing over the wine (a symbol of joy), and finalize their vows.".. anyway

Here is fact.. if you/me cant live for Christ now..you will never during the great awful day of the lord.

Try to understand your personal belief is not the only way.. nor His word. If I was asked what I personally believe.. I would post verse... thats what I believe.. what HE said. Not adding "what that really means" no speculation. I look for Him NOW! He cant lie and He has ALWAYS kept His word for me. I mean that in the strongest way. I am NO ONE... but.. I BELIEVE He is who He said He was.. I believe He made me a home and is coming for me. I can not show you where in His word when. Nor have I found anyone that can. ALLOT of speculation yes.

I am not right.. only my Father is. And I am not here to tell you what HIS word really means what His word really says. His spirit that talks to me that is in me is IN YOU!

I would say.. look up.. be ready now.. live right help love forgive ..JESUS said He would come get us.. I am ready now. That is my hope.. its a GREAT HOPE a GREAT JOY! I am always trying to live right since He can come back any moment.. I LOVE THAT! I am ALWAYS thinking about Him

I wake up like that.. keeping Him on my mind..asking Him to use me HIS way..to help others..to be used by His Spirit in ALL the gifts as it says..not me. I take HIM at HIS words.. and that branch blooms with fruit.. because its grafted in the VINE..its never me.. ALL HIM.. He is coming.. I made my free choice on this.. you must also..remember..YOU made that choice.. we all read and heard..

 

[ewq1938]

Matt 24..who asked Jesus questions? Christians? The Church? No.. Jewish people did.. and to Jewish people He answered.

No, it was Christians, the early Church, that asked the questions and the entire OD is about the persecution of Christians. In one gospel he also warns Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues during the GT.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When Noach went into the boat, when all was said and done, who was taken and who was left? If we're honest with it, Noach and his family were left, the rest of the world was taken. Same with Lot... when the smoke cleared, he was left, Sodom and it's inhabitants were gone.
So will it be in the day of the son of man. The ones "taken" are not the group we want to be part of.
An additional witness to that comes in the parable of the wheat and tares. Who is taken first? The tares... and they are burned. The wheat is left behind, and then gathered unto the master of the field (messiah).

Not true.

Those TAKEN into the Ark were protected. The rest were LEFT or rejected and died.
Lot was TAKEN out of Sodom to safety. The rest LEFT in Sodom died.

Not only is this chronologically correct but it matches the meanings of the Greek words. You have it chronologically backwards showing left first and taken last which is not the order given by Christ.

It is if you want Christ to be the one taking you. Who wants to be left/rejected by Christ?

That's out of context. The one taken and left is the second coming. The wheat and tares is what happens on the GWTJ.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


The day of the second coming. People will be saved first, then the others are destroyed. That is taken and left in chronological order.

Even the parable of the ten virgins teaches the same chronological order of the first group taken to safety with Christ, the rest rejected and left to their deserved fate.

I tend to agree with you eqw, especially after looking more closely at the Harvest shown in Matt 13 and Revelation 14 as it appears the events of Noah and Lot is similar to the event of the Harvest.
[I may create a separate thread on the Harvest]

Matthew 13:30
‘Let both grow together until the Harvest<2326>, and at the time of Harvest I will say to the Harvesters<2327>,
“First gather-together<4816> the tares<2215> and bind<1210> them in bundles to burn<2618> them,
but gather<4863> the wheat<4621> into my barn<596>.”
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end<4930> of the age, and the harvesters are the Messengers.

I have just now looked more closely at the 70ad Harvest event shown in Matt and Luke.
Revelation 14:14-16 and Revelation 14:17-20 appear to be 2 separate events? Will have to study on this more:

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;[Revelation 14:14?]

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap!
for the time has come for Thee to reap, for the Harvest of the land is ripe<583>.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

The 2 witnesses shown ascending to heaven appear to be the ones being gathered and taken into the "barn"?

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

This appears to be the ones left in Jerusalem and gathered for burning and thrown into the great winepress of the wrath of God outside the City?

17 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary which is in Heaven, and He also had a sharp sickle.
18 Then another Messenger, the One who has power over fire, came out from the Altar and He called with a loud voice to Him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in thy sharp sickle! and gather! the clusters from the Vine of the land, because her grapes are ripe.”
19 So the Messenger swung his sickle to the land and gathered the clusters from the Vine of the land, and threw them into the great Wine-press of the wrath of God.
20 And the Wine-press was trodden<3961> outside the City,
and blood came out from the Wine-press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/fold<833>, without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.



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