-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Matt 23?
- Thread starter Ephfourfive
- Start date
Minister Monardo
Well-Known Member
- Mar 9, 2020
- 8,786
- 3,549
- 70
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
First of all, the main point of this discourse, as you proceed through verse 12, is to not act
like them, as examples of the inappropriate use of authority. The point is that as experts in
the Law of Moses, which every Jew was accountable for "to live in the land", they were expected
to follow their directives to the full extent possible. We are instructed to live similarly:
Submit to Government
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except
from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will
bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the
sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this
very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs,
fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
like them, as examples of the inappropriate use of authority. The point is that as experts in
the Law of Moses, which every Jew was accountable for "to live in the land", they were expected
to follow their directives to the full extent possible. We are instructed to live similarly:
Submit to Government
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except
from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will
bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the
sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this
very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs,
fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Upvote
0
Soyeong
Well-Known Member
- Mar 10, 2015
- 12,975
- 4,725
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Messianic
- Marital Status
- Single
Deuteronomy 17:8-13 If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns that is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place that the Lord your God will choose. 9 And you shall come to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision. 10 Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you. 11 According to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the verdict that they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear and fear and not act presumptuously again.
Upvote
0
In other passages, the Lord said that the Torah would never be annulled. I think in Mat 23:1-3 He is saying basically the same thing. At the same time, He warns against following other commandments that came to be known as the Oral Torah. The latter came to be written down after 70 AD in the Mishnah and Talmud.
What do you think?
Upvote
0
Successors of Moses!
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Upvote
0
The Lord, in the same passage, criticized the successors of Moses quite severely:
Mat 23:3 But don’t do what they do, because they don’t practice what they teach.
4 They tie up heavy loads that are hard to carry and put them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves aren’t willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 They do everything to be seen by others: They enlarge their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.
6 They love the place of honor at banquets, the front seats in the synagogues,
7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by people.
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ because you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Do you really want to apply this criticism to the Catholic Church?
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
- Dec 8, 2004
- 111,127
- 33,268
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
That's very fanciful and really inaccurate. Not only was one of those a key and the other keyS, but the offices are not the same. What's more, if it were as you want to believe it is, someone in the early church would probably have held to the same theory you are laying before us. Don't you think?? Of course, that didn't happen until hundreds of years later.
Upvote
0
kingdom authority keys shut heaven
Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Binding power
Matt 23: 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
- Dec 8, 2004
- 111,127
- 33,268
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
Now show us where in any of that information the Roman Catholic Church or the Papacy or even the Bishop of Rome is mentioned or referred to. That, after all, is what we are trying to determine.
Upvote
0
Major covenants!
Adam
(Marriage covenant)
Noah
(Family covenant)
Abraham
(Tribal covenant)
Moses:
(National covenant)
Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)
New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18
Universal (Catholic)
World universal
Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal)
Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people
Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world
Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
- Dec 8, 2004
- 111,127
- 33,268
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
Sorry, but that verse is neither of the verses you cited in the post I replied to. But if we take a look at this new one, we find that it doesn't meet the test either. Christ says nothing there about any Roman Catholic Church or even the city of Rome, let alone anything about any Papacy.
Upvote
0
Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!
Isa 22 father
Peter head day of the church on earth!
Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:
Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:
Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!
Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:
Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:
Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:
Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!
1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.
Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
- Dec 8, 2004
- 111,127
- 33,268
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
What version of the Bible are you using that includes the words in blue?
I think we can agree that Peter was important to Christ. That isn't what we are talking about.
So all the Apostles were given what Peter was given, according to Matt 16?
Still nothing about universal jurisdiction or keys being like the key referred to in Isaiah.
Upvote
0
The prime minister holds the keys under the king and over the other ministers
Hierarchy authority
Like Joseph under pharaoh
Hierarchy authority
Like Joseph under pharaoh
Upvote
0
God always establishes order in men with the people’s obedience to hierarchical authority!
The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!
All require obedience to hierarchical authority!
The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!
The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!
All require obedience to hierarchical authority!
The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!
Upvote
0
