Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

ClementofA · Mar 28, 2018

parousia70 said:
Israel Absolutely Repented in the 1st century!
Who do you think the Apostles were? The 70? The 3000 on Pentecost?

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out. Amazing history.

I referred not to the salvation of some, but "national repentance".

"Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11)."

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

What is spiritual Israel?

ClementofA · Mar 28, 2018

parousia70 said:
A) You must have never ready Josephus or Tacitus and their separate accounts of many astronmical events surrounding the temples destruction... warriors and charriots dashing about the clouds, Daylight for half an hour around the temple in the middle of the night, etc..

B) The language you quote of Stars falling and heavens being shaken and Jesus coming on the clouds are direct OT quotes of PAST JUDGEMENTS on individual nations carried out by Jehovah where such celestial evets were also said to have occurred..

Why is it you have no problem with that language being used fuguratively in the OT but must affix an untaught, wooden litralism to the same langauge when you find it in the NT?

You have no scriptural instruction to spiritualize OT language such as "the stars will fall from heaven and the heaves will be shaken" yet apply a polar opposite, hyper literalized interpretation to this SAME EXACT language when you find it in the NT.
None.

So why do you?

Her's an example for you to chew on.

After David's battlefield victory over Saul and His armies, (yes, AFTER) He described the Battle this way:

(2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?

Bowing the heavens, starting fires with his nostrils, shooting arrows, actually seen riding on Clouds and Cherubs, shaking the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare?

You claim David is here describing what LITERALLY happened?

Did God Literally come on the clouds in great power and glory and do these physical, destructive things to the Heavens and earth at the time of this Battle victory of David over Saul the way the prophet claims He did?

Or, Maybe you believe this language is...... FIGURATIVE??

Thank you for your comments. I understand your view. Though the reason i quoted the paragraph you quoted from was the part you left out:

"Moreover, against the idea that this verse refers to A.D. 70 is the pivotal fact that some of the disciples “standing” there were no longer alive by A.D. 70 (all but John had been martyred by then)."

If only John (of the 12) was alive at 70 A.D., then the seeing of "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Mt.16:28) could not have occurred at that time.

28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

BABerean2 · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
I referred not to the salvation of some, but "national repentance".

"Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11)."

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

What is spiritual Israel?

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

It replaces a Church which began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites and later included Gentiles, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

It replaces the "son" as the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

It replaces a Gospel only of Grace, with one that includes race.

It ignores the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

It replaces the New Covenant of Christ, with a "treaty" broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel 9:27.

It is the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, which is the true form of "Replacement Theology".

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Jesus has not yet been revealed from Heaven with his army of angels.

John, James, and Peter saw Jesus, Moses, and Elijah in glory. Which is spying on the Kingdom to Come. But that was not literally the second coming.

discipler7 · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

There are various Futurist interpretations of Matt.16:28:

1. It refers to the transfiguration passage immediately following it in the context of Mt.16:28 & the other 2 parallel passages in the other gospels:

"It is important to see when Matthew 16:28 was literally fulfilled. To find a literal fulfillment we need only look to the next chapter (Matthew 17), where we find that the "some standing here" refers to Peter, James and John and "seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom" refers to the transfiguration. This is confirmed by 2 Peter 1:16-18 where the transfiguration is said to be "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The transfiguration was a marvelous preview of the Lord's future coming in His kingdom majesty."

.
JOHN.21:20-23 implies that the apostle John did not die and has lived till today, awaiting the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to this rotten earth.

Including John, there were 120 apostles and disciples of Christ who experienced the miraculous Pentecost of ACTS.2. It is probable that MATTHEW.16:28 was referring to some of them.
.

MATTHEW.19: = With God All Things Are Possible
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is another fulfillment (as I'm understanding) pertaining to this part of the passage:

It's a whole other layer.

.....which, as I understand it, is representative of Christ Jesus acting as High Priest (found in Leviticus) This process began when Jesus "cleansed the Temple":

----->The priest will then perform the purification offering and make reconciliation for the person needing purification from their uncleanness.A̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶u̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶s̶l̶a̶u̶g̶h̶t̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ . 20 T̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶u̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶t̶a̶r̶. In this way, the priest will make reconciliation for the person, and they will be clean again.~Leviticus 14:19-20

****************

...then He who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, ‘There seems to me to be some case of disease in my house.’~Leviticus 14:35

Then the priest shall command that they empty the house before the priest goes to examine the disease, lest all that is in the house be declared unclean. And afterward the priest shall go in to see the house. 37 And he shall examine the disease.~Leviticus 14:36-37

...then the priest shall command that they take out the stones in which is the disease and throw them into an unclean place outside the city. 41 And he shall have the inside of the house scraped all around, and the plaster that they scrape off they shall pour out in an unclean place outside the city …Leviticus 14:40-41

the priest will return. If he finds that the infection has spread throughout the house, it is a case of infectious skin disease in the house; the house is unclean.45 The house must be destroyed—its stones, wood, and all the plaster in the house. All of it must be taken outside the city to an unclean area.~Leviticus 14:44-45

Which I believe also fulfills this prophecy:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

....and what Jesus had predicted when He entered Jerusalem:

Luke 19~For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44They will level you to the ground — you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another,because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

Why Jesus cleansed the temple twice (a long-standing mystery solved)

Hi i would suggest you go and re-read Dan 2. When the stone cut without hands comes and crushes the image of the beast it is supposed to grind it powder and turn the entire thing into chaff and there is no remainder of these kingdoms as the stone is a kingdom that becomes a giant mountain and this mountain covers the earth and this kingdom will have no end. Would the world be in such a mess if we were in the kingdom age already?
In Rev 11 the angel proclaims Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” The LORD was tempted by Satan and offered all the kingdoms of the world at a time if He would worship Satan. This shows that for now the planet is as Jesus said under the ruler of this world. Rev 21 shows the Lord Jesus when He comes Satan is bound and the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. The Lord brings back those with Him including those who were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast. The time of this kingdom is 1000 years. This time frame is repeated many times in the passage. The 2nd coming at the battle of Armageddon is described much differently then the final rebellion at the end of the 1000 years. It says the nations who were deceived by Satan will not be deceived again until the 1000 years is over. Are the nations holy and righteous now? They sure seem deceived to me and opposed to Christianity.
Finally look at Zech 14 which is where in the old testament a vision of the 2nd coming is recorded and it is bold enough to declare many specific events all to take place on a very specific day, a day in which Jerusalem is being overrun. The LORD will fight that day and His feet will stand on the MT of Olive and it will split in two forming a new valley. A day when it is dark in the day and light at night. Then
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.

This is the day Satan is bound for 1000 years and the stone crushes the image of the kingdoms of man and the angels proclaim the kingdom is now the LORDs. The events of this chapter are literal and line up 100 % with a literal revelation and Daniel and all the rest. Life is promised to continue after the LORD is king over the earth. 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Have the nations ever been required such a thing? Did the Mt of Olives split in two in 70AD? Is a new river flowing year round since 70AD? No,no,no.

Zech predicted Jesus coming in on the foal of a donkey and Jesus being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and the money being given to the potter. The law of the prophets says a prophet must be 100% right or he is to be stoned as a presumptuous prophet. These specifics in this chapter are going to come to pass. I can show you at least 50 related scriptures that all link to this days being a literal day.

claninja · Mar 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Is there any reason why it can't have both meanings (that He didn't want her to cling to Him....nor did He want her to touch Him and go against ritual laws)?

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”~John 20:17

It is definitely not both. There is one ascension. To say there is more than one ascension is to add something that scripture does not say.

1. )Christ would die (not be with the disciples) then rise again ( be with the disciples a little while before his ascension)

“A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.”
John 16:16 - Bible Gateway passage: John 16:16 - English Standard Version

In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:1-3 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:1-3 - English Standard Version

2.) When jesus ascended to the Father, he would no longer be seen by the disciples. Therefore, if jesus had Already gone to the Father before his public ascension, he would not have been seen any longer, nor should anyone have seen his public ascension.

concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
John 16:10 - Bible Gateway passage: John 16:7, John 16:10 - English Standard Version

3.) the argument that Jesus said he was ascending to the Father when Mary clung to him in John 20:17, is used to show that Jesus was ascending to the Father right after that moment because the verb ascending is present active.

But here is the problem with that argument:

Did Jesus ascend to the Father prior to his death and resurrection?

But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
John 16:5 - Bible Gateway passage: John 16:5 - English Standard Version

claninja · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

So God is going to reinstate the old covenant?

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
I referred not to the salvation of some, but "national repentance".

So did I.

Again, St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

You, in stark contrast to Paul (and Moses), Insist this very bizarre idea of who Israel is, as you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham, claiming they are something else entirely. That those Obedient, Faithful Sons of Abraham somehow stopped being Israel!

You have Replaced Faithful Obedient Israel with Wicked Disobedient Israel as Heirs to the promises.

You view is akin to claiming that National Israel NEVER ENTERED THE PROMISED LAND after wandering in the desert 40 years, since the majority of them were slain in the wilderness for their unbelief, and only the believing remnant (something you claim is NOT Israel) entered.

Such is Untenable to any Honest expositor of Scripture.
The Prophets and Apostles teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming here friend.

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
Thank you for your comments. I understand your view.

Ok, but can you addres my question about the language?

Why do you personally view this language symbolically in one part of the Bible but hyper-literally elsewhere?

Where does scripture teach you to do this? Why is your interpretation of this language (stars falling, Heavens Trembling, God coming down to earth Riding a cloud, etc...) so inconsistant?
I one part of the Bible you say "Symbolic!" and in another part you say "Literal!" But so far you havent shown us where the Bible teaches you to make such a distinction?

"Moreover, against the idea that this verse refers to A.D. 70 is the pivotal fact that some of the disciples “standing” there were no longer alive by A.D. 70 (all but John had been martyred by then)."

If only John (of the 12) was alive at 70 A.D., then the seeing of "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Mt.16:28) could not have occurred at that time.28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Since John Hearlded the arrival of the Great tribulation and Day of the Lord in about 67AD, there were Some still alive at that time. Mark, Luke, Matthew, Thomas, and Phillip, at least..

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

DreameroftheHeart said:
But that was not literally the second coming.

The "coming of the Son of Man" is not the second coming. It's what's mentioned in the Nicene Creed:

"He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father."

Lesson 14.4 | Ascension: The King Takes His Throne from Ray Vander Laan's Mission of Jesus series

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Jesus has not yet been revealed from Heaven with his army of angels.

The text in Matthew doesn't use the word "army"---it merely says "with his angels" (it's in Revelation that "army" is used).

Couldn't the reference to "coming with His angels" in Matthew 16 have been when He appeared with Moses and Elijah (His transfiguration)? There were also "saints" that were resurrected around the same time that were with Him for the 40 days prior to His ascension (those could have been also considered "angels"....messengers).

Another possibility is that--according to recorded ancient Roman history--in 66 AD , the beginning of the Jewish/Roman war, this was recorded (what parousia70 was referring to):

[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”

The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.”A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 “Burning of the Temple” cited in Historical records with some signs (AD 66-70) (9/16/2014)"

The parallels between these three accounts and Revelation 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

claninja said:
It is definitely not both. There is one ascension. To say there is more than one ascension is to add something that scripture does not say.

I guess my post wasn't clear. I don't mean there was more than one ascension. I was meaning to ask if there's any reason why both interpretations couldn't be correct (that Jesus didn't want Mary to touch him....nor for Mary to cling to Him). I was only referring to that portion of the post.

ETA: I'm now beginning to doubt the use of "touch" in that verse (and implications that Mary would make Jesus impure by her touch). That seems to lean towards the belief that flesh (as in: flesh and blood) is impure (and only our spirits are holy). If that were the case, Jesus wouldn't have been literally encased in flesh and blood in Mary's womb for about 40 weeks.

claninja · Mar 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I guess my post wasn't clear. I don't mean there was more than one ascension. I was meaning to ask if there's any reason why both interpretations couldn't be correct (that Jesus didn't want Mary to touch him....nor for Mary to cling to Him). I was only referring to that portion of the post.

Thank you for clarifying. That makes more sense

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

Brian Mcnamee said:
Would the world be in such a mess if we were in the kingdom age already?

I don't know about all the ages. From what I understand, 70 AD was the end of the Mosaic Jewish age. End times, prophecies and all that is fairly new to me. Only a few weeks ago did I do some intense reading on the gospels....and "coming of the son of man" came to life for me.

The theological framework that makes sense to me is the "already not yet" framework. His kingdom has come......but He is "making all things new". It's a process....and in His coming in glory, I believe, there was a nexus of events that happened with layers of meaning.

------>The fundamental framework for all of Paul’s theologizing, especially for “salvation in Christ,” is his eschatological understanding of present existence – as both “already” and “not yet.” With the resurrection of Christ and the gift of the promised Holy Spirit, God has already set the future inexorably in motion; thus salvation is “already.” But the consummation of salvation awaits the (now second) coming of Christ – the “Day of Christ,” Paul calls it (1:6, 10; 2:16); thus salvation has “not yet” been fully realized. The fact that the future has already begun with the coming of God himself (through Christ and the Spirit) means two crucial things for Paul: that the consummation is absolutely guaranteed, and that present existence is therefore altogether determined by this reality. That is, one’s life in the present is not conditioned or determined by present exigencies, but by the singular reality that God’s people belong to the future that has already come present. Marked by Christ’s death and resurrection and identified as God’s people by the gift of the Spirit, they live the life of the future in the present, determined by its values and perspective, no matter what their present circumstances.

Gordon Fee, Paul’s Letter to the Philippians, 50-51.

claninja · Mar 28, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Jesus told Mary, Touch me not for I have not yet ascended t the Father. Now look towards 1 Cor. 15 and understand that FLESH and BLOOD can not enter Heaven and the ONLY THING Jesus could have meant by what he stated was that HER SIN FLESH would have defiled his offering unto God. Because 8 days later he had no trouble allowing Thomas to touch him.

Its just common sense.

Where does the Bible say that Mary touching jesus would defile Jesus as the perfect offering?

dqhall · Mar 28, 2018

ClementofA said:
27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

There are various Futurist interpretations of Matt.16:28:

1. It refers to the transfiguration passage immediately following it in the context of Mt.16:28 & the other 2 parallel passages in the other gospels:

"It is important to see when Matthew 16:28 was literally fulfilled. To find a literal fulfillment we need only look to the next chapter (Matthew 17), where we find that the "some standing here" refers to Peter, James and John and "seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom" refers to the transfiguration. This is confirmed by 2 Peter 1:16-18 where the transfiguration is said to be "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The transfiguration was a marvelous preview of the Lord's future coming in His kingdom majesty."

Preterism and Matthew 16:28

"The Lord's promise refers to literally seeing—in a picture . . . in a foreview—the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (a preview of Christ in the glory of His kingdom), which is in perfect accord with all other scripture revelation on the subject, and particularly as to the nature of the kingdom. It is in perfect harmony with all other scripture (2 Pet. 1:20), including the immediate context, and thus the correct and genuine literal interpretation."

Preterism Answered - Matthew 16:28

"Moreover, against the idea that this verse refers to A.D. 70 is the pivotal fact that some of the disciples “standing” there were no longer alive by A.D. 70 (all but John had been martyred by then). Still further, no astronomical events occurred in A.D. 70, such as the stars falling from heaven and the heavens being shaken (Matthew 24:29). And Jesus did not return “on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30)."

The Problem with Preterism | Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries

2. It is conditional based on Israel's repentance, which did not occur at that time or during that generation:

"The subjunctive mood calls attention to the contingent (i.e., dependent) nature of what is being affirmed. It speaks of the connection which obtains between what is affirmed and that upon which the affirmation depends for its fulfillment...if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is not unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is revisable and is not certain to occur... if the will of God, then revealed, was not peremptory, then these prophecies were not certain to occur in that generation...It should be noted that the prophecies of the establishment of the kingdom within that present generation of Israelites to whom Christ came, were necessarily provisional. They were contingent upon Israel’s national repentance and acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour.

This Generation

"This indeterminacy may be a bigger issue than it might appear at first. There are several schools of thought that see a "parenthesis" in this period, corresponding to the age of the Church--cf. Rom 11.25, and some that see the entire event-stream as being conditional like the prophecy of Jonah 3.4. There were Jewish groups that also held this conditional nature of the timing of the 2nd Advent. So Keener (BBC:115) summarizes:"

"Jewish teachers struggled with a tension between two positions: (1) one could predict when the Messiah would come, in a time ordained only by God; and (2) one could not predict his coming, but he would come whenever Israel repented and wholly followed God. This is a distinct possibility." http://christianthinktank.com/qaim.html

3. "...of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in"(Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

"The reference, beyond doubt, is to the firm establishment and victorious progress, in the lifetime of some then present, of that new kingdom of Christ, which was destined to work the greatest of all changes on this earth, and be the grand pledge of His final coming in glory." (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

"This inclineth others to think, that it is to be understood of Christ’s showing forth his power in the destruction of Jerusalem. But the most generally received opinion, and which seemeth to be best, is, that the coming of the Son of man here meant is, his resurrection from the dead. His ascension into heaven, and sending the Holy Spirit, after which the kingdom of grace came with a mighty power, subduing all nations to the Lord Jesus Christ. He was declared, (or determined), to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Romans 1:4. And when, after his resurrection from the dead, they asked him, Acts 1:6, whether he would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel, he puts them off, and tells them for an answer, Acts 1:8, But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. And then, Acts 1:9, he in their sight ascended up into heaven. Then did the kingdom of the Son of man come with power, Acts 2:33-36, they knowing assuredly that the Son of man, whom the Jews had crucified, was made both Lord and Christ, as Acts 2:36, and, as Acts 2:34,35, set at God’s right hand, (according to the prophecy of David, Psalm 90:1), until his enemies should be made his footstool. (Matthew Poole's Commentary)

"His conspicuous coming to judgment (see Gnomon on Matthew 16:13) is meant, which would begin to follow immediately after His ascension." (Bengel's Gnomen)

"Son of man coming in his kingdom - Mark and Luke have explained this: Mark 9:1, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;" Luke 9:27, "Till they see the kingdom of God." The meaning evidently is, "till they shall see my kingdom," i. e., my church, now small, feeble, and despised, greatly enlarged, established, and spreading with great rapidity and extent. All this was accomplished. All these apostles, except Judas, lived to see the wonders of the day of Pentecost; some of them, John particularly, saw the Jewish nation scattered, the temple destroyed, the gospel established in Asia, Rome, Greece, and in a large part of the known world." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

4. "to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of..." (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible @ Matthew 16:28 Commentaries: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.")

"This advent is doubtless the destruction of Jerusalem, which, as it occurred only some forty years after this time, some of his auditors, apostles and the multitude, would live to behold. This great event was a type of the second advent, the two being closely connected by Christ himself (see ch. 24.)." (Pulpit Commentary)

5. "And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ."

"Here we see how Simeon was promised that he would behold the object of his delight before he should taste of death. This is precisely what Jesus is promising his hearers in Matthew 16:27-28!"

"For evidence to support the idea that individuals would behold the kingdom in power and glory, take a look at Stephen’s martyrdom in Acts 7:"

"Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.”

"Notice again that the immediate context of the coming of the son of man passage in focus is persecution and martyrdom:

"From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?"

"Now, what is it about this context that would lead a person to think of a single, impersonal event 40 years in the future? It just isn't there.

"Instead, the similarities between the martyrdom in Acts 7 and the promise in Matthew 16 are staring us in the face"

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Idealism/2008_dennis_matthew_16_27-28.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------

"At least six plausible possibilities have been advanced.
1. Jesus looked to His resurrection.37
2. Jesus meant His ascension.38
3. Jesus looked ahead to the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost.39
4. Jesus pointed to a coming in A.D. 70—the preterist view.40
5. Jesus referred to the advance of His kingdom through the church.41
6. Jesus had the transfiguration in mind.42"

https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj14a.pdf

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD fulfilled Mark 13:2, Matt. 24:2 and Luke 21:6.

Jesus has not returned to establish a new heaven and earth yet. God has shown many acts of great power. Jesus rose from the dead. As Lazarus slept in a tomb before Jesus called upon him to arise and get out of the tomb (John 11), I expect those disciples who remained with Jesus are not dead.

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

dqhall said:
Jesus has not returned to establish a new heaven and earth yet.

So the Old Covenant is still in affect?

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.~Matthew 5:18

Quoting from this site: Heaven and Earth Shall Pass Away

We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.

In Deuteronomy 32:1, in the song of Moses, God is talking to Israel when He says: "Give ear, 0 ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, 0 earth, the words of my mouth"
In the song of Moses, God is depicting the fate of Israel when He says: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (vs. 22).

Is God here talking about burning up the earth? No, he is talking about bringing judgment upon Israel.

In Matthew 24:35 Jesus is talking about the passing away of Israel when He speaks of heaven and earth passing away. This is what the entire 24th chapter of Matthew is about - the passing away of old Israel.

Now there will be a new Israel - a new heavens and earth; but more about that later.
In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people.
*****************
Also....from N.T. Wright:

------>But in the Bible ‘heaven’ isn’t ‘the place where people go when they die.’ In the Bible heaven is God’s space while earth (or, if you like, ‘the cosmos’ or ‘creation’) is our space. And the Bible makes it clear that the two overlap and interlock. For the ancient Jews, the place where this happened was the temple.~N.T. Wright's Response to Stephen Hawking on Heaven

and from: When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

----->Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

Revealing Times · Mar 28, 2018

claninja said:
Where does the Bible say that Mary touching jesus would defile Jesus as the perfect offering?

Geeeze come on man, Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

So what do you think Jesus meant?

Then reading what Paul writes about the Rapture in 1 Cor. 15, we understand that our FLESH BODIES can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven because we are DEFILED.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That is why we are are CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye, from CORRUPTION (FLESH BODY) to INCORRUPTION (SPIRIT MAN).

So now why do you think Jesus told Mary not to TOUCH HIM?

Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jesus offered himself a SACRIFICE for us ONCE, and that covers all of sin for all time, he did that when he entered the HEAVENLY HOLY OF HOLLIES, and that had to be done without blemish, this is why only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Hollies and could only do so by sprinkling blood for the remission of sins.

Jesus is our High Priest now, interceding for us daily. But he could not be touched by sinful flesh before he offered the Sacrifice.

God bless brother.

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Then reading what Paul writes about the Rapture in 1 Cor. 15, we understand that our FLESH BODIES can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven because we are DEFILED.

This is getting off topic......maybe you could begin another thread with that content?

Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

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