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It's a conclusion reached through reasoning that follows later in the paragraph that you forgot to quote. Do you have a problem with the reasoning? Please explain.The_Horses_Boy said:Are you God? Who are you to say what God's purpose is?
Osiris said:I thought freewill was something like this:
If we could go back into the past, we could choose differently.
right now, we are in the past, if God knows what we will do/choose... then we can't choose differently than what he already knows.
nuclear said:It's a conclusion reached through reasoning that follows later in the paragraph that you forgot to quote. Do you have a problem with the reasoning? Please explain.
The_Horses_Boy said:Wait... Are you saying that because he knows what we will do we don't have the choice as to what we will do?
interesting... Kinda what I was thinking, but I wasn't thinking that far.Asimov said:Yes, that is what is being said. Because we can't refrain from doing x at point t, we don't have a choice as to whether or not to do x at point t.
We are not in the past though. For us it is the present, but, you seem to be saying, it is the past for God because it already happened for him. This however is false. God knows because he is observing. Every moment past present future is the present to God. In fact, from after time ends God is still observing every moment. He really has no future, he is a present God.Osiris said:I thought freewill was something like this:
If we could go back into the past, we could choose differently.
right now, we are in the past, if God knows what we will do/choose... then we can't choose differently than what he already knows.
EverlastingMan said:We are not in the past though. For us it is the present, but, you seem to be saying, it is the past for God because it already happened for him. This however is false. God knows because he is observing. Every moment past present future is the present to God. In fact, from after time ends God is still observing every moment. He really has no future, he is a present God.
Nor does the fact that we choose one way, that what we will choose is already known, and that once we choose we cannot change our choice undermine free-will. That we will choose one way and not both ways or a number of ways is obvious as is that we cannot change that choice once we have made it- not to say, however, that once we choose to say become an athiest we cannot change that choice and be a buddhist or something else. Regarding the other point: it is by no means true that simply because an entity is aware of a future event or choice that they caused it. This is a non-sequitur. To know is not to cause.
My bad. I didn't bother go back to the original post.Asimov said:I'm having trouble understanding your post since you are going off on too many tangents. Could you structure your rebuttal in a way that is a little easier to digest and provide a counter-rebuttal?
And you attributed that quote to me, when I didn't say it.
EverlastingMan said:My bad. I didn't bother go back to the original post.
My first paragraph states that there is no past for God, it is all the present. Thus if it is the present for us and the present for God there is no way to say that it is in fact the past.
My second paragraph states that the assumption that God knows what we are choosing does not mean that he made us choose that. It is a non-sequitur. I may have known that you would ask for clarification but I did not make you.
This is a bare bones summary of what I was saying, so if you still don't know what I was saying tell me and I will state what I am saying more fully.
Do I take this response as you having no problems with the logic of the point I was making, ie, Billy's choices are predetermined? Since you avoided discussing it, I really cant begin to guess.The_Horses_Boy said:"God created Billy-the-[insert any religion other than Christianity or lack thereof here] for the sole purpose of Billy going to hell."
The bold, underlined italic is what I have a big problem with. Just because someone isn't saved doesn't mean that they don't have a purpose.
Osiris said:I thought freewill was something like this:
If we could go back into the past, we could choose differently.
right now, we are in the past, if God knows what we will do/choose... then we can't choose differently than what he already knows.
You are invited to re-read my post to this thread wherein I explained precisely the reasoning that supports the conclusion.Lilly of the Valley said:We aren't in the past. That is the problem w/ this reasoning. It is on the assumption that knowing equals controling and forcing the specific choice instead of God simply just knowing our actions.
When a person can predict an outcome with reasonably high confidence, we say he "knows" the outcome. However, a person knowing the future in such a manner is a far cry from being analagous to the way God knows the future. God knows the future inerrantly and infallibly. Note the difference between the two phrases I bolded in this paragraph. The cook most likely will be correct; God must be correct.Ex: A cook knows what a customer will get because they always get the same thing. Now they could and have the choice to choose anything, but the cook simply knows what they will choose. He isn't controling it and it isn't predetermined, just known.
:æ: said:If the cook were God, and He knew that a particular customer would select, say, an order of egg rolls, then the customer CANNOT select a different item instead. To say that the customer COULD select a different item than the egg rolls is to say that God's knowledge could be wrong. However, God cannot be wrong, so we cannot suppose that the person could select anything else but what God already knows.
:æ: said:You are invited to re-read my post to this thread wherein I explained precisely the reasoning that supports the conclusion.
When a person can predict an outcome with reasonably high confidence, we say he "knows" the outcome. However, a person knowing the future in such a manner is a far cry from being analagous to the way God knows the future. God knows the future inerrantly and infallibly. Note the difference between the two phrases I bolded in this paragraph. The cook most likely will be correct; God must be correct.
If the cook were God, and He knew that a particular customer would select, say, an order of egg rolls, then the customer CANNOT select a different item instead. To say that the customer COULD select a different item than the egg rolls is to say that God's knowledge could be wrong. However, God cannot be wrong, so we cannot suppose that the person could select anything else but what God already knows.
EverlastingMan said:My bad. I didn't bother go back to the original post.
My first paragraph states that there is no past for God, it is all the present. Thus if it is the present for us and the present for God there is no way to say that it is in fact the past.
My second paragraph states that the assumption that God knows what we are choosing does not mean that he made us choose that.
It is very frustrating to have taken all of the time and care that has gone into explaining the reasons why your claims are false to have you simply dismiss them out-of-hand and re-assert the same bald claims despite that I have refuted them.Lilly of the Valley said:Yep, and it's inaccurate because we do choose.
Shutting your eyes and ears and shouting ,"I'm right! I'm right! I'm right!" doesn't quite make for an effective argument.God simply knows what we will do because He knows us and how we are, that doesn't mean we can't choose something else, He just simply knows what we will do and that it won't be the something else we could do though we have the choice to do it.
It doesn't matter what I believe. It remains a fact that your claims about God are inconsistent.Saying otherwise is unscriptural and saying that we don't have choice goes against God's character and the Bible. So if you believe neither of these, I needn't waste time. Good day now.
Asimov said:Well let's see how it pans out. Just making assertions regarding this without reasoning it out is a bit misguided.
We know that God is eternal, that is, time does not exist for him. The statement regarding anything about the past, present and future would then obviously relate to us.
Yes.We know that God necessarily exists, that is, everything that actually exists is contingent upon him. This is in regards to the idea of causality, and that if causality is true we can trace all cause and effect relations to one ultimate cause, which would be God.
He exists in the present. He is as you said before in eternity. Eternity has no past or future, all is now.We know that because God is omniscient, he knows what we will do, have done and are doing. This is because he can view our universe in the past, present, and future...he exists in all times and all places (omnipresent).
Well, no. Your wording is misleading. The only thing that has thus been stated is that he has caused everything to come into existence in the first case. He is not causing the existence of things presently; merely sustaning the universe.If these are true, we can conclude these things:
1. That because the existence and causal relationships are dependant upon God existing and causing the universe that he caused everything to be with the knowledge of what would happen were he to do so.
C. God caused everything to happen.
2. That because our future is known, the path is already set before us and we are just walking it.
2A. Libertarian Free Will does state that if we do have free will, we could refrain from doing x at point t. If the path is already set, we MUST do x at point t, regardless of our knowledge, circumstances, or attempts to prevent it. All of our actions are predetermined before we do them.
C. There is no free will.
True, in fact I don't think the future can be set by a contingent beingFinal Notes:
If the future is known by a contingent being, then that future is not necessarily set by that contingent being due to its nature of being contingent.
If the future is known by a necessary being, then that future MUST have been set by that necessary being due to its nature of being necessary, because it caused all things contingent.
That is one of the most frequently discussed questions here.The_Horses_Boy said:A common beleif is that God created everyone and he knows them even before they are born. He know what they will do.
If you beleive that God created everything, is all knowing and knows all that will happen, then is it sensible that we are predestined? God has created all and knows all that will happen. He knows if we will accept him before he creates us. Isn't this, in essence, predestination?
I am young and trying to figure these different things out. Is it possible for free will and predetermination, if God knows all?
EverlastingMan said:He exists in the present. He is as you said before in eternity. Eternity has no past or future, all is now.
Well, no. Your wording is misleading. The only thing that has thus been stated is that he has caused everything to come into existence in the first case. He is not causing the existence of things presently; merely sustaning the universe.
The path that we will choose is known, but this does not mean that we were unable to determine what path we took.
There are three ways one can know the future
God's knowledge of what we will do is of the second and third sorts.
Well since presumably I have proven that the path is not set then this is not so.
No. I am necessary to whatever child I may have and I may know what will happen to that child, this does not mean I set the childs path, however. A necessary being enables a creature to act, it is not forced to determine how the creature acts, though it can.
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