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Math Logic Disproves Evoution

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gluadys

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It would clear things up if you could explain a bit more. How and where did he twist the Theory of Evolution?

For one thing, he thought it was possible to distinguish between higher and lower forms of the same species and to improve on nature by eliminating the so-called lower forms. All members of the same species are by definition at the same evolutionary "level".

And even across species lines, the notion of higher and lower "levels" is quite a distortion. Is a horse higher or lower than a tiger? Is a spider higher or lower than a mushroom? The sort of thinking that would rank species (not to mention individuals within a species) in this way is hierarchical "Great Chain of Being" thinking, not evolutionary thinking.
 
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no1nose

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For one thing, he thought it was possible to distinguish between higher and lower forms of the same species and to improve on nature by eliminating the so-called lower forms. All members of the same species are by definition at the same evolutionary "level".

And even across species lines, the notion of higher and lower "levels" is quite a distortion. Is a horse higher or lower than a tiger? Is a spider higher or lower than a mushroom? The sort of thinking that would rank species (not to mention individuals within a species) in this way is hierarchical "Great Chain of Being" thinking, not evolutionary thinking.

These are “technical” errors which do not challenge the moral (amoral?) and philosophical foundations of the Theory of Evolutions. They are minor – the kind any fool can make
 
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gluadys

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These are “technical” errors which do not challenge the moral (amoral?) and philosophical foundations of the Theory of Evolutions. They are minor – the kind any fool can make

The foundations of the theory of evolution are scientific observations of evidence, not philosophy.
 
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RiemannZ

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Evolution is about the survival of the fittest.

Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit.

While abuses occur within the Christian Church its core belief system does not support them. The same cannot be said for The Theory of Evolution whose core belief system treats as natural the extinction of the “unfit”.

Yes evolutionists believe that people with fertility problems aren't able to breed, luckily Christianity offers them redemption.

Got no ovaries? Cancer in your uterus? Low sperm count? Don't worry, Christianity is there for you.
 
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TankGirl

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Yes evolutionists believe that people with fertility problems aren't able to breed, luckily Christianity offers them redemption.

Got no ovaries? Cancer in your uterus? Low sperm count? Don't worry, Christianity is there for you.

Yeah - my Pastor's infertile wife has provided him with 5 fabulous kids... Guess what? God's in the miracle business...
 
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Jester4kicks

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Yeah - my Pastor's infertile wife has provided him with 5 fabulous kids... Guess what? God's in the miracle business...

If his wife had 5 kids, she must not have been very infertile.

Sorry, no such thing as miracles.
 
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Chesterton

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I'd like to chime in here because I see this happen 90% of the time evolution is discussed. Apples are being attacked and oranges are being defended.

It's helpful for both sides to specify which theory of evolution is being discussed. There is the scientific theory of evolution, the basics of which pre-date Darwin by a long time. There is the mythologic theory of evolution, the fullness of which pre-dates Darwin by a long time. The scientific theory, actually a quite limited, humble and unassuming little theory is usually only discussed by good scientists. The mythologic theory, loaded with meanings, implications and drama, is usually discussed by bad scientists and amateurs. The mythologic theory should properly be discussed by those who've studied literature, but unfortunately it rarely is.

I'd suggest discussing one or the other in this thread, but not both. Of course, the science of evolution is fairly boring. The mythology of evoultion, the cosmic "rags to riches to rags" story, is entertaining, but tends to get people, especially Christians, all worked up when they don't realize it's only a story.
 
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Jester4kicks

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I'd like to chime in here because I see this happen 90% of the time evolution is discussed. Apples are being attacked and oranges are being defended.

It's helpful for both sides to specify which theory of evolution is being discussed. There is the scientific theory of evolution, the basics of which pre-date Darwin by a long time. There is the mythologic theory of evolution, the fullness of which pre-dates Darwin by a long time. The scientific theory, actually a quite limited, humble and unassuming little theory is usually only discussed by good scientists. The mythologic theory, loaded with meanings, implications and drama, is usually discussed by bad scientists and amateurs. The mythologic theory should properly be discussed by those who've studied literature, but unfortunately it rarely is.

I'd suggest discussing one or the other in this thread, but not both. Of course, the science of evolution is fairly boring. The mythology of evoultion, the cosmic "rags to riches to rags" story, is entertaining, but tends to get people, especially Christians, all worked up when they don't realize it's only a story.

I'm not sure I understand your distinction. Could you provide a basic example of each to highlight the difference you are trying to show?
 
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TankGirl

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If his wife had 5 kids, she must not have been very infertile.

Sorry, no such thing as miracles.

Infertile enough to be written off by all the Doctors & told they had zero chance of having kids...Until they prayed about it... You can choose to call that stupid doctors, poor medicine, bad science...whatever... when stuff happens that man says is impossible, I call it a miracle.
 
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Jester4kicks

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Infertile enough to be written off by all the Doctors & told they had zero chance of having kids...Until they prayed about it... You can choose to call that stupid doctors, poor medicine, bad science...whatever... when stuff happens that man says is impossible, I call it a miracle.

First, there isn't much that is "impossible"... just "highly improbable".

Second, I'm not saying anything about the doctors... what I'm saying is that creating a child requires a woman to produce an egg, have it fertilized (giggity), and have a uterus capable of carrying the child to term.

If your pastor's wife did all this, then obviously she wasn't completely infertile.
 
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TankGirl

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First, there isn't much that is "impossible"... just "highly improbable".

Second, I'm not saying anything about the doctors... what I'm saying is that creating a child requires a woman to produce an egg, have it fertilized (giggity), and have a uterus capable of carrying the child to term.

Thanks for telling me that - I'd never have known if you hadn't so clearly explained the facts of life to me...:doh:

If your pastor's wife did all this, then obviously she wasn't completely infertile.

Didn't do all this (hence intervention of doctors)...THEN prayed...THEN produced 5 gorgeous kids...Imagine that...
 
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Jester4kicks

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Didn't do all this (hence intervention of doctors)...THEN prayed...THEN produced 5 gorgeous kids...Imagine that...

Biological processes don't require much imagination. The problem is that you are insinuating a cause-and-effect relationship between prayer and the conceptions.

Let's put it another way...

My old roommate's parents tried to have kids for years. Eventually the doctors told her that she just couldn't have kids. They kept trying anyway, even after a heartbreaking miscarriage. Eventually, they had my old roommate... and a couple years later, they had his brother!

He and his parents are atheists.

Plenty of things occur, especially in medicine, that doctors do not fully-understand. That doesn't mean they are miracles. If the history of biological lifeforms on this planet has proven anything, it's that life demands existence. Genes are designed to replicate... and they have an amazing ability to overcome lots of obstacles that may stand in their way.
 
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Jester4kicks

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Speaking of doctors I came across this the other day: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7463606.stm

Great... a book based entirely on anecdotal evidence... but since it's written by a nurse, some will probably think it's based on facts.

I prefer the episode of "BS" (actual title of the show is a little more spelled-out) that Penn and Teller did about near-death experiences.
 
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sfs

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I'd like to chime in here because I see this happen 90% of the time evolution is discussed. Apples are being attacked and oranges are being defended.

It's helpful for both sides to specify which theory of evolution is being discussed. There is the scientific theory of evolution, the basics of which pre-date Darwin by a long time. There is the mythologic theory of evolution, the fullness of which pre-dates Darwin by a long time. The scientific theory, actually a quite limited, humble and unassuming little theory is usually only discussed by good scientists. The mythologic theory, loaded with meanings, implications and drama, is usually discussed by bad scientists and amateurs. The mythologic theory should properly be discussed by those who've studied literature, but unfortunately it rarely is.

I'd suggest discussing one or the other in this thread, but not both. Of course, the science of evolution is fairly boring. The mythology of evoultion, the cosmic "rags to riches to rags" story, is entertaining, but tends to get people, especially Christians, all worked up when they don't realize it's only a story.
I'm also confused about the distinction you're making, and about your factual claims. Modern evolutionary biology is quite a large theory (or set of theories), and very little of its content predates Darwin.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I'm also confused about the distinction you're making, and about your factual claims. Modern evolutionary biology is quite a large theory (or set of theories), and very little of its content predates Darwin.
The core idea (species change over time) has its origins in Ancient Greek philosophy. Modern evolutionary theory is far more refined and explicitly defined (i.e., the discoveries of DNA, mutation, genetic drift, punctuated equilibrium, fossils, etc), but the basic idea is the same.
 
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Chesterton

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I'm also confused about the distinction you're making, and about your factual claims. Modern evolutionary biology is quite a large theory (or set of theories), and very little of its content predates Darwin.

Yes, you're correct that little of the modern theory pre-dates Darwin, but I just referred to the "basics", by which I meant the ancient Greek formulation that life first arose in the sea, and evolved from there.

The very first post in this thread starts with the words "Hard physical evidence demonstrates that...". From that it winds up discussing the history of European Jews and some couple's miraculous fertility.

Nowadays, perhaps out of intellectual necessity, a scientist will (usually, not always) make the claim that the theory of evolution is irrelevant to the ideas of progess and improvement. He will claim that the word "evolve" actually doesn't mean evolve as the average layperson defines it, i.e., changing from lower to higher. He'll say rather that to evolve merely means to change - backwards, forwards or sideways. The very metaphors "lower, higher, backwards, forwards and sideways" each imply value. (I don't know how to speak of these ideas without metaphor, it may not be possible.) To believe that the introduction of life into the universe is good or bad, or to believe that biological life on earth is hierarchical requires a poet, someone to place a value judgment on the change. So a biologist should, for example, discuss the mechanisms whereby a living cell reproduces itself and stick to that. The biologist need not concen himself with Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany is not a scientific process, it's a historical event. If Nazi Germany still existed, it would be merely an ongoing event. Likewise, the biologist need not concern himself with "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest", they also are not scientific processes. If they occurred (and are occurring), they are historical events. If they didn't, they are myth. Either way, they are not scientific processes. They are mythological concepts whether or not they are "true". A more complex organism is not necessarily a more "fit" organism, and there's no claiming man is "higher" than bacteria unless you mythologize.

You may respond that a historcal event and a myth are two different things. You'd be only partly correct in making that distinction, because all current interpretation of any (and all) historical events is mythological, at least in so far as value is assigned to the event. So my point is that the interpretation, the supplying of meaning and implications to historical events, is properly not done by scientists. It shouldn't be done, and when it is done, it almost always results in the same confusion I see in this thread and many other discussions of evolution.

Put simply: science and mythmaking are both respectable and useful vocations, but they are different. I don't want prophets practicing biology, and I don't want biologists handing down God's law.

Just an opinion, hope I made sense.
 
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